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Islam: What the West needs to know.

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posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by Islam_solutionforhumanity
 


PS I sincerely hope you dont suffer in this life or the next from the bottom of my heart




posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 06:41 AM
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reply to post by Islam_solutionforhumanity
 




The Quran was revealed to a man who lived a life of 40 years before prophethood and never uttered a lie or commited an indecency in a society where the people were savages and barbaric. Why would a person who wouldn't lie about the smallest matter lie about God?


Revealed to a man. So from any outside perspective, this man simply appeared from his cave, or hut, or tent, or church, and proclaimed divine revelation. May I ask, were there any witnesses to this revelation? Was this revelation only to one man, or a series of men? Not that I don't already know the answer to this, but from my perspective - why should I believe this man whom I have never met, who is laying down laws given to HIM for ME from a god who has never seen fit to reveal themselves to me in a personal or direct fashion?

What makes him any different than the prophet Joseph Smith who similarly claimed direct revelation by god via angels delivering his word inscribed on golden tablets. Tablets which, much like I expect original texts which may have been given to the prophet by means of physical written works, have curiously vanished from the material sphere. What makes him any different than Jerry Falwell who claims to talk to and receive instruction from god directly?

To say that the Prophet could not lie is itself an article of faith. How do I know he could not lie? Because others say he couldn't? Considering that each and every one of us lie numerous times a day - in small ways we probably do not even notice, and not always to others but sometimes to ourselves, it makes this claim rather suspect to suspicion. Revered historical figures are often deified in this manner. For example, popular perception of George Washington was that he was an extremely honest man. The myth of George's childhood is that when asked if chopped down a cherry tree, George proudly responded "I cannot tell a lie!", then professed to his guilt in chopping it down. Does this mean that George really could not tell a lie? Not at all, and the myth of his chopping down a cherry tree is by all rational accounts just that. A myth.

Remember also that he might not actually have been lying, but what he claimed as god's word was not the truth either. He may really have honestly believed that he did receive divine revelation from god - but the source of which was really something much more mundane. Perhaps he was so caught up in his philosophizing on religion, that he could honestly no longer tell the difference between his musings and the will of god? Perhaps he honestly mistook epiphany for revelation? Perhaps he suffered from Frontal Lobe Epilepsy and a seizure was mistaken as visions of god - as they sometimes are known to manifest as. Such, apparently, was the case with Ellen White who helped found the 7th day Adventist Movement.

All in all, I still see no reason to believe that Mohammad actually and truly WAS spoken to by god and given laws for which I must obey.



Choosing an idol for worship does not hinder human rights but it violates the rights of God.


I don't tend to worship idols. Indeed, I have no preconceived and very likely man-made notions about who god is, what he wants, what he will and will not tolerate, etc. I have only my faith in god as a first cause creator of the universe - and the universe itself. As Paine once so eloquently put it;



"The Creation speaketh a universal language, independently of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they may be. It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God."


I put the creation of god in higher regard than the works of man which claim to speak FOR God. From my perspective, I see organized religion of all faiths and denominations as idol worshipers - because to me they worship man-made compilations which are contrary to, and refuted by, the evidence of the natural world that I believe god created.



The Quran commands all that is good and prohibits all that is harmful.


All that is good and all that is harmful? By who's metric? God's? We haven't proven that the Qu'ran is actually god's own word and will. You leave it up to the Qu'ran to dictate to YOU what is good and what is evil based on that assumption. I think freedom of thought, of speech and expression, the freedom of by religion by being free OF religion, the recognition of equality and the rights associated with that of all the races and genders and gender orientations are a very good thing for humanity. Yet the Qu'ran does not agree with my assessment. Do you, independently of what the Qu'ran teaches, believe these are good things for a healthy and peaceful society worth living in?



Islam place a restriction where peoples rights and dignity is violated (stealing, rape etc.)


As do the laws of man. While I might enjoy drinking and driving, I understand that it is wrong and that doing such can land me in quite a lot of trouble - because the consequences of my actions could have disastrous effects on others human rights. My freedom to drink and drive is one that I gladly hand over to the authority of our court system in order to prevent my actions from causing innocent people to come to harm.



God does not like ingratitude


I do not feel that I am ungrateful to god. I thank him in many ways every day for the life and wealth of family, friends, property, emotion, necessities, etc that have been provided for me. However, God is only one, at the top of the list, in a long list of people I have to thank for the life I enjoy now. My parents, my family, my girlfriend, farmers, carpenters, scientists, authors, artists & developers of media, truckers, marketers, laborers, IT professionals, ect... ect... all of which deserve my solemn thanks, but again - foremost to god for this reality in which it's possible. This thanks is not obligated of me, but given freely out of genuine gratitude.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 07:33 AM
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reply to post by Islam_solutionforhumanity
 





The issue you have raised about interpretation is an important one so let me address it. As Muslims, we are forbidden to speak about the Quran without knowledge. We also cannot attribute anything to God without proof. The reason why there are so many sects is that people are making this mistake.


So, again, my question is - what guarantee do we have that mankind can even bring about this utopia that you think Islam can provide if current Islamic adherents cannot event follow it themselves. If the laws of god are perfect, they would require perfect compliance by mankind in order for them to work properly. But mankind isn't perfect, and never will be. So would you doom the entire world to the bloodshed and horrors which are plaguing the middle-east due to muslim on muslim violence? How many grieving families, abused women, and freedoms trampled before Islam can deliver it's promise?



Everyone has a different set of values. To one person raping may be good and fulfilling whereas to others, it may be abhorrent. Where is the yardstick? The yardstick is the command of the One who created good and evil. He defines and we conform.


I disagree. While there is no official marker for what is right and what is wrong in the laws of man, nearly every civilization (with or without the aid of the Torah, Gospel, or Qu'ran) have a collective set of rules their people agree upon and adhere to. While it is philosophically possible that rape and murder may be extolled virtues in a hypothetical society, they are pretty much universally frowned upon across the globe and throughout history. These acts are detrimental to society, and without laws against them and to protect it's people from them - then those societies will quickly crumble. The Mayans, for example, practiced ritualized human sacrifice - but would punish those who engaged in cold blooded murder. The Vikings were notoriously violent and had sexual encounters openly and wantonly with many sexual partners in their celebrations - but they also had strict guidelines and laws concerning rape and murder.




The Quran openly challenges humankind to produce anything like it.


There a plenty of holy texts out there to choose from, and each of them challenge the others whom they view as deficient.




It contains references to facts which were not known at that time but are recently discovered.


I would love to hear a few, and would hope that they are not incredibly vague and also subject to interpretation. Much like the old Testament which some can interpret to claim the Earth was round - when in fact the bible only says it was a circle. Contrasted against Greeks at the same time as the earliest of the earliest of know surviving biblical texts who had not only theorized the proper shape of the Earth (spherical) but had measured it and demonstrated HOW they knew the diameter of the Earth.




t contains prophecies, information about the past, present and future which noone could have known at the time it was being revealed.


Again, prophecies are notoriously vague and subject to interpretation that allow them to fit any number of historical events. They're also suspect to believers pushing or fabricating events in which they can claim the prophecy has come true. I would point to the support of the religious right in America's unilateral support of Israeli occupation in Palestinian land in order to push the prophecies of the bible into coming true rather than allowing them to come to fruition on their own. How many of these prophecies are written about, and then fulfilled within the context of the Qu'ran itself - thus trying to use the Qu'ran to justify the rightness of the Qu'ran?



The Quran is God's word which is unadulterated and unparalleled.


The Qu'ran being unparalleled is an opinion. Unaltered, well, I assume it's been translated. Translations always give rise to some form of error or another - so it can be, and has been, altered. Even if you know how to read it's original language, this throws the specter of doubt on it's incorruptible nature.




A single logical, grammatical, mathematical, scientific or any type of mistake or inaccuracy would render it invalid.


I have a feeling you're setting yourself up either a shock to your worldview or some rather fancy logical gymnastics.

www.answering-islam.org...

This site would seem to suggest that there are contradictions, external and internal, in the Qu'ran. While I'm sure you could come up with something to refute those claims, how is Muslim Apologetics any different than Christian or jewish apologietics?

-----------------------------------

Please, understand that I wish no disrespect - but what you propose of us is extraordinary, and we will require extraordinary evidence to convince us. This is going to be quite hard for you, especially considering that god has been taking quite the back-seat role as of late. He doesn't quite reveal himself and his will so definitively in the form of global floods or smiting cities of the wicked anymore.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by Islam_solutionforhumanity
True, Islam was meant to dominate but do you know the logic behind it?


it originates from mohammads brutal imperialism.


Islam, we believe is the religion ordained by God for humanity. Such a religion should have the upper hand since this is what God wants people to do.


Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Sura (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."


Moses (peace be upon him) in the Bible approved of holy war!


moses's holy war was finite, jihad is open ended.

jihad will end only when all submit to islam. untill all declare none has the right to worship but all. untill all submit to allah.

thats quite a condition, dont you agree?


Now back to Jihad, we Muslims do not believe in killing every non-Muslim we encounter. The first step in the process is invitation to Islam. The message of God should be conveyed clearly to the non-Muslims and their doubts should be cleared with wisdom and beautiful preaching.


here are examples of islamic 'invitation':

[Muhammad] said, “Woe to you, Abu Sufyan, isn’t it time that you recognize that I am Allah’s apostle?” He (Abu Sufyan) answered, “As to that I still have some doubt.” I (the narrator) said to him, “Submit and testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of Allah before you lose your head,” so he did so. (Ibn Ishaq 814)

Allah's Apostle sent us towards Al-Huruqa, and in the morning we attacked them and defeated them. I and an Ansari man followed a man from among them and when we took him over, he said, "La ilaha illal-Lah." On hearing that, the Ansari man stopped, but I killed him by stabbing him with my spear. When we returned, the Prophet came to know about that and he said, "O Usama! Did you kill him after he had said "La ilaha ilal-Lah?" I said, "But he said so only to save himself." The Prophet kept on repeating that so often that I wished I had not embraced Islam before that day. (Bukhari 59:568)

The apostle told them to tell Malik that if he came to him as a Muslim he would return his family and property to him and give him a hundred camels. (Ibn Ishaq 879)

Muhammad sent one of his men to Yemen with a military force, where a local pagan leader was told, “Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." (Bukhari 59:643)

Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them; and if they declined he was to fight them. (Ibn Ishaq 959)

Khalid’s famous announcement, “If you accept Islam then you will be safe,” is echoed by Jihadists like Osama bin Laden to this day.


If they still do not choose to accept Islam then if they are Jews, Christians or Magians, they are asked to pay jizyah (tax) and come under Islamic rule or face a state of war. If they are polytheists, then there will be a state of war between them and the Muslims( no jizyah).


Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


In Islam, we believe that denying the existence of God or worshipping others besides God is a heinous crime, in fact the greatest crime there is. ... God has commanded us to fight such people for His sake so that His ordained religion prevails.


you mean worshipping others besides allah, that is a significant difference.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by Islam_solutionforhumanity
Now keep in mind that after the message of Islam has been conveyed and proven to these people, yet they continue to reject Islam due to stubbornness, arrogance, etc. They also pose a threat to Muslims because they might 1) attack them at any time (what would compel an atheist to live upto his word?) and by trying to spread their corrupt ideologies and beliefs.


proven is the key here. the koran must be perfect to be valid. the koran is demonstrably riddled with error, contradiction and outright fantasy. islam has not been proven. i think atheists are wrong, but i would never think to force a belief upon them, after all, heaven isnt for everyone. what is also demonstrable is how mohammad has wildly corrupted the old and new testament.


Islam must be conveyed in its original form without any additions or deletions. It is a major sin to lie about the nature of Islam.

In short, Islam permits lying in cases of necessity, not for the heck of it, just as eating pork is allowed in cases of necessity.


the necessity here is for the spread of islam, which could not happen among infidels who are aware of allahs intent, and not the cherry picked verses from the koran when mohammad was powerless and thus more affable.

Sura (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Sura (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Sura (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Sura (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Sura (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Muslims are permitted to lie to infidels in order to defeat them.


You can also learn about Islam from converts who accept Islam with their own free will and face countless difficulties due to this. You can ask them why they accept Islam. Look at the whole picture, not just parts of it.


those converts have been lied to. why do clerics warn against reading the koran on your own, without their 'helpful' guidance?

the testimony of lifelong muslims who realize the truth is more credible.

Islam Under Scrutiny by Ex-Muslims



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Islam_solutionforhumanity

The Quran was revealed to a man who lived a life of 40 years before prophethood and never uttered a lie or commited an indecency in a society where the people were savages and barbaric. Why would a person who wouldn't lie about the smallest matter lie about God? We can discuss each of these points in detail, you can ask questions, I can quote examples of all I am stating.


thank you for presenting me an opportunity to exhibit islamic taqiyya.

the 'perfect muslim man' owned, sold and raped slaves:

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150)

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

“…and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children [escaping in the distance]. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along”

I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

the 'perfect muslim man' killed children:

[Muhammad said] “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah. Do not be deceitful with the spoils; do not be treacherous, nor mutilate nor kill children.” (Ibn Ishaq 992)

however...

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322)

Muhammad did, in fact, draw a distinction between Muslim and non-Muslim children and said that it would be permissible to kill a child who has no prospect of accepting Islam:

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)

After capturing Mecca, the prophet of Islam also ordered the execution of two “singing girls” who had mocked him in verse:

“…two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed…” (Ibn Ishaq 819)

i have more. much more, if you'd like, i'd be delighted to present the rest here.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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It's funny how the Christian world seems to forget that (counting the current middle eastern debacles as one) they have waged five holy wars against the muslims, denied and/or failed to give credit for the many accomplishments the muslim world has made to our race (mathematics, astrology, etc.), and destroyed the muslim economy when their missionary Cristobal Colon ruined their trade. This is just to name a few. The muslims have a life of catching up to do if they want to even begin to scratch at the number of murders, tortures, rapes, etc. of the Christians. Christians (christian americans to be specific) need to take a step back and look at the whole picture. Their religion dominates the world and has been an excuse for diabolical acts since its creation. The harshest characters in history have been christians or lived by christian idealogies. This is true for the past, present, and probably the future; Hitler, Stalin, Bush, etc.. If Islam is evil and everything else that is said, let me ask one question. Why is it that the orchestrators and leading members of the most likely soon-to-be nwo are all Christian? I'll stop typing now



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by Hohuwah
It's funny how the Christian world seems to forget ....


the topic is, what the west needs to know about islam, not christianity.

you can start your own thread, of course.


hitler was not acting on a chrsitian doctrine, nazism is based in the occult.

stalin was a communist, which has nothing to do with christianity

whats it like to be so fundamentally inaccurate?

that must affect the decisions you make in your day to day life, no?


i bet you're the sort who would utter hitler, stalin and gw bush in the same sentence.


" The muslims have a life of catching up to do if they want to even begin to scratch at the number of murders, tortures, rapes, etc. of the Christians."


care to present some numbers?

i have 12,000 deadly terror attacks in the name of allah since 9/11/2001 alone.


what do you have?

[edit on 3-10-2008 by feydrautha]



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 05:48 PM
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The problem is the seal of the last prophet in Islam, left this so called last Islamic religion with an impression to kill all unbelievers with a mission which is not a good way to end the saga. The Book it self was written on bones and leaves and never had an order to them and it was scattered text put in the order of paragraph lengths. But unlike the Bible though which has an order to it and stories that weave through time.

I mean Christianity is more supernatural in its wording and stories and the main character Jesus the saviour longed for throughout the Old Testament, man without sin is a better influence on the psychology of the reader and believer. For they’re to be miracles there needs to be a God and order to that and if people cannot believe that then there is no point believing in any God in the first place in terms of believability. I am not sure how many times the Koran uses the world love, but I know out of the 99 names of the Islamic God, not one contains the word Love.

I am very sceptical about Islam in the West because like the Islamic prophet it seems like gaining the Strongholds in the West is a form of militant conquering like many Muslims who look up to their prophet's behaviour in the Koran in and mirror his image.

Every Western rule overturned, every cross put down, every prayer room made, every Church converted to a Mosque and every part of town turned to Muslim districts is a Strong hold to the victory of Islam in the same light their prophet conquered the Middle East.

The Middle East is a NWO, that is why it's not a FREE religion and no freedom lives in the Middle East. The NWO started 14,000 years ago and its luck the Crusades happened because you would not have the internet to talk about it today.

[edit on 3-10-2008 by The time lord]

[edit on 3-10-2008 by The time lord]



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 10:05 PM
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an interesting article on this topic.

this article is from a former muslim, and he has some important insight into islam, that the west should be aware of.

required reading for every infidel:



Islam Cannot Bring Peace and Guidance to Humankind

by Imran Hossain

Islam is based on Quran and Sunnah (practices of Mohamed). About 1.2-billion people believe in Islam and it is known to its followers Muslims in many ways, such as by birth, conversion, and study. Most Muslims adopt Islam due to their birth to Muslim parents. Among all these Muslims, most of them are familiar with Islam by faith and little practices. However, Islam is not limited with prayers, hajj, jakat, and fast only. Islam is supposed to be the example of Mohamed (the founder) and what Quran emphasises, and all Muslims are required to obey.

In reality, Islam is far away from the ideal of a religion when Quran and Hadis (Sunnah) are thoroughly read. The majority Muslims are not even near Islam and it is not honestly known to them. Imams, Mullahs, or such people who spend their lives on Islam represent the picture of Islam. A literal study in Islam reveals Islam as follows.

1) Mohamed does not qualify as a good person,

2) Quran is a confusing book and its teaching creates hate and fight and takes away the rights of women and non-Muslims,

3) Islam fails to provide appropriate guidance for entire mankind, and

4) More importantly, a) Islam wants to dominate the whole word b) it wants to impose its own law to every citizen.



Click here for Full article



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 11:09 PM
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Just a couple of comments:

Someone said that Islamic scholars encourage muslims or new muslims not to read the Quran. This is false, many muslims memorize the Quran by heart every year. Many whom I know, including myself, study the Arabic language so that we can get to the source without relying on translations. Furthermore, it is always stressed amongst the people of knowledge that the Muslims study the religion. It is encouraged to question and forbidden to blindly follow.

Also, superman guy said something about the Quran that many seem to think, and that is that the Quran is some type of biography of the prophet Muhammad, and this is not true either. Although the Quran does reflect upon some of the situations at the time of the prophet, the authentic Hadeeth are the real sources for the Sunnah (example) of the Prophet.

Most of you only show how ignorant you really are about the religion that is the fastest growing especially amongst westerners. Other post articles, links or copy and paste text from anti-Islamic sites. Some of these sites even claim to be founded by ex-Muslims and although this may have some truth, these ex-Muslims I have found come from cultural Islam which is very different from real Islam. A lot of stories are posted about forced marriages and abuse and so on and so forth, but the readers are left to believe that most Muslims are all like this. What most of you do not know is that there are also Christian Arabs, African Christians and Jews amongst Arab nations like Morocco and Yemen that also practice a lot of these cultural traditions. However, Muslims are the only ones singled out and of course Islam is guilty.

Some of you are quoting a lot of verses from the Quran or texts from Hadeeth, but a lot of what you are posting about Islam "exposing" it fail to consider who Muhammad was dealing with in terms of his enemies. The wife of the chief enemy of Islam had the Prophet's uncle killed and she cut open his body afterwards and tried to eat his internal organs, the men used to bury female babies alive and the list goes on in terms of their barbaric culture. The early Muslims faced extreme persecution at the hands of the pagans. So don't cry too hard for the pagan Arabs, I'm sure most of you wouldn't oppose to, a killer who murdered your family member and then cannibalized the body, having his head lopped off as a punishment. The chief, his wife and the assassin later accepted Islam which led to the Prophet forgiving them. The Prophet Muhammad was even made an offer to receive extreme wealth and allowed to continue on with his Islamic religion so long as he didn't speak against the idols but he refused because the central message of Islam is the same as the first commandment in the Bible, and that is nothing is worthy of worship except the One and only God.

One more point I would like to raise, is that there is a lack of freedom in the Middle East and somehow this is due to the religion. This has a lot to due more with western colonialism than anything else. African Christian nations have a lot of the same problems if not worse. Many of the leaders of Muslim nations are not role models of Islamic character, Sadam Hussien was a secularist who belonged to the Baath Party, an Arab nationalistic party that was founded upon a socialist-atheist ideology.

I really blame the Muslims first and foremost for much of the ignorance, culture and religious innovations are mostly to blame, but unlike any other religion Muslims have authentic sources to refer back to when differing. When a sufi or shia build Mosques upon graves of their dead leaders, we have clear authentic text that prohibit these actions from the Quran and Sunnah (Hadeeth), texts that have been preserved through out time and have unanimous agreed understanding. All one needs to do is look.

"Indeed truth is not known due to the people, learn the truth and then you will know it's people



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 12:26 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


Sorry for the late reply



Revealed to a man. So from any outside perspective, this man simply appeared from his cave, or hut, or tent, or church, and proclaimed divine revelation. May I ask, were there any witnesses to this revelation? Was this revelation only to one man, or a series of men? Not that I don't already know the answer to this, but from my perspective - why should I believe this man whom I have never met, who is laying down laws given to HIM for ME from a god who has never seen fit to reveal themselves to me in a personal or direct fashion?


There were no witnesses to this revelation but due to the moral character of this man, witnesses were not necessary. People who knew him had no doubt in their minds he was speaking the truth. No-one had ever accused or caught him lying. The infidels of Mecca labeled many accusations against him such as magic, witchcraft etc. but no-one could say he is a liar. Here are parts of a hadith where Abu Sufyan (a non-Muslim at that time) had a conversation with Heraclius (source Sahih Bukhari)


Volume 1, Book 1, Number 6: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas: Abu Sufyan bin Harb informed me that Heraclius had sent a messenger to him while he had been accompanying a caravan from Quraish. They were merchants doing business in Sham (Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan), at the time when Allah's Apostle had truce with Abu Sufyan and Quraish infidels. So Abu Sufyan and his companions went to Heraclius at Ilya (Jerusalem). Heraclius called them in the court and he had all the senior Roman dignitaries around him. He called for his translator who, translating Heraclius's question said to them, "Who amongst you is closely related to that man who claims to be a Prophet?" Abu Sufyan replied, "I am the nearest relative to him (amongst the group)." Heraclius said, "Bring him (Abu Sufyan) close to me and make his companions stand behind him." Abu Sufyan added, Heraclius told his translator to tell my companions that he wanted to put some questions to me regarding that man (The Prophet) and that if I told a lie they (my companions) should contradict me." Abu Sufyan added, "By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet. The first question he asked me about him was: 'What is his family status amongst you?' I replied, 'He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us.' Heraclius further asked, 'Has anybody amongst you ever claimed the same (i.e. to be a Prophet) before him?' I replied, 'No.' He said, 'Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?' I replied, 'No.' Heraclius asked, 'Do the nobles or the poor follow him?' I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.' He said, 'Are his followers increasing decreasing (day by day)?' I replied, 'They are increasing.' He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?' I replied, 'No.' "By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet. Heraclius asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?' I replied, 'Yes.' Then he said, 'What was the outcome of the battles?' I replied, 'Sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.'


The whole text of the hadith can be found at:

www.usc.edu... html

His most bitter enemies at that time could not assassinate his character, could not prove their allegations against him and could only make foolish claims such as he is a magician and he is a madman!



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 12:26 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


Yes God could speak to each one of us individually if He wanted to but this life is a test for the hereafter according to Muslims. It is not a difficult test either, we have been given all the study materials (divine revelations, our own intellect) and we have been told how to pass this test. If God were to show Himself to you and me publicly and ask us to obey Him or else, where is the test? All the signs are here but we have free will so we can choose whether to obey or disobey Him.




Remember also that he might not actually have been lying, but what he claimed as god's word was not the truth either. He may really have honestly believed that he did receive divine revelation from god - but the source of which was really something much more mundane. Perhaps he was so caught up in his philosophizing on religion, that he could honestly no longer tell the difference between his musings and the will of god? Perhaps he honestly mistook epiphany for revelation? Perhaps he suffered from Frontal Lobe Epilepsy and a seizure was mistaken as visions of god - as they sometimes are known to manifest as. Such, apparently, was the case with Ellen White who helped found the 7th day Adventist Movement.


As a prophet, not only did he convey God's laws, but he also made predictions, quite a few of them which have come true now and are quite explicit. Examples can be found at

www.answering-christianity.com...

Other examples are:

Link

Remember, some hadiths are authentic while some are inauthentic. Islamic scholars have studied chains of transmission and the men who transmitted them in detail so it is important to quote the authenticity of the hadith as well if possible. The majority of above examples if not all of them are authentic.

Prophet Muhammad also performed certain miracles. These were witnessed by his followers and are documented:

www.geocities.com...

These are from the most authentic sources.
Plus I suggest you visit

www.answering-christianity.com...

It contains the refutations to most if not all the allegations at answering-islam.org. Criticism is not wrong but it should be valid. We have intelligence, we should use it objectively. There is nothing wrong with discussion as long as it is constructive rather than "I am right, you are wrong. Period!"

PS I may not be able to reply for the next few days for which I apologize in advance.

Mod Edit: BB Code.




[edit on 4/10/2008 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


I hate to jump in here, but I'm afraid you have been misinformed when you claim that the Qur'an is unchanged and pristine.

First, the "Book" for 200 years was not a book. It was a group of recitations. In fact, Sura 46:12 states in part, "Yet before it [Qur;an] there was the Book of Moses [Pentateuch - five books] which was an authority, and a mercy. This [Qur'an] is the Book confirming it in the Arabic tongue."

Now if this were the equivalent of a translation of the Pentateuch into Arabic, then why not do a simple translation and leave it at that?

It's because Muhammed was trying to sell the Meccans on his god by selling them their moon-god, and appeals to the Christians and Jews who knew that this pagan moon-god Allah was not the same Jaweh, or I AM of Christianity and Judiasm. You'll note that the Meccans never, ever accused Muhammed of teaching a different god than the pagan moon-god Allah of theirs.

Maududi, one of the more esteemed Islamic scholars said, "The Qur'an exists in its original text, without a word, syllable nor even a letter having been changed."

Really? For a "perfect" book, one must wonder why there were seven different versions, and not very similar?

"Allah's Apostle said, 'Gabriel recited the Qur'an to me one way. Then I requested him and continued asking him to recite it in other ways, and he recited it several ways until he ultimately recited it seven different ways."
Bukhari: V6B61N513

Muhammed couldn't remember the Qur'an recitations himself, and he was making an excuse for the very dissimilar versions. This is one of the problems with being an illiterate.

Don't believe it?

"The Prophet said, 'It is a bad thing that some of you to say, 'I have forgotten such and such verse of the Qur'an. For indeed, I have been caused to forget it. So you must keep on reciting the Qur'an because it escapes from the hearts of men faster than a runaway camel." Bukhari: V6B61N513

Now is Muhammed was making so many mistakes as to be called on it, how could he have recalled the other six versions? How could his followers two hundred years later have gotten it correct to put in writing for the first time?

Now you don't think that the different versions were dissimilar?

"Umar bin Kattab (the second Caliph) said, 'I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat Al-Furqan [25th Surah] during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle. I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited it in several ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. So I was on the point of attacking him in the prayer, [this would indicate a very, very dissimilar version of the same Sura] but I waited till he finished , and then I seized him by the collar. "Who taught you this Surah which I have heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You are lying. Allah's Apostle taught me in a different way this very Surah which I have heard you reciting." So I led him to Muhammed. "O Allah's Apostle. I heard this person reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way you did not teach me." The Prophet said, "Hisham, recite!" So he recited in the same way I heard him recite it before. On that Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed to be recited in this way." Then the Prophet said, "Recite Umar!" So I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle said "It was revealed to be recited in this way, too." He added, "The Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in several different ways, so recite of it that which is easier for you."
Bukhari: V6B61N561

Yeah. That's the problem with making it up as you go along.

"Ibn Abbas asked, 'Which of the two readings of the Qur'an do you prefer?" The Prophet answered, 'The reading of Abdallah ibn Mas'ud.' Then Abdallah came to him and he learned what was altered and abrogated." Bukhari

Then you have to forget the Satanic verses. Some choice editing there from the original.

"Have you considered al Lat and al Uzza and Manat the third other?" Originally this passage was followed by the words, "Verily they are the exalted maidens [daughters of the moon-god Allah] and their intercession is to be hoped for."

Opps. Uh oh. The daughters of the [multi-god] Meccan, pagan moon-god Allah that Muhammed is referring to, and whose divine intercession he appeals to and whose holy station he is acknowledging. This attempt to appeal to the Meccans caused his earlier monotheistic moon-god followers to begin to abandon him, so he reverses himself again.

In Bukhari V6B60N475, Ishaq: 166, and Tabari:VI:110, you can read how these recitations were cast by Satan, etc. No other Prophet had that problem.

Sura 16:101 "And when we exchange a verse in place of another verse - and Allah knows very well what He is sending down - they say, 'Thou are a mere forger!' Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge."

"And for whatever vers we abrogate and cast into oblivion We bring a better or the like of it, knowest that Allah is powerful over everything?" Sura 2:106

So we find that there were seven versions. Two versions. Altered. We find choice editing. Then we find that Satan himself was putting words in the mouth of Muhammed.

"The Jews of Quanuqa replied, 'Muhammed, do you think we are like your people? Do not be deluded by the fact that you met a people with no knowlege and you made good use of your opportunity." Tabari VII:85, Ishaq: 3:63

Lying?

Then Allah said, 'It is not for any prophet to deceive [lie]" Ishaq : 397

"By Muhammed's order we beguiled them." Ishaq: 442

"Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle and he was bewitched so that He becan to imagine doing things which in fact, He had not done." Bukhari: V6B60N8

I think that verse just about sums up this self-proclaimed prophet of Allah the pagan Meccan moon-god.

Islam is the antithesis of the God of Judiasm and Christianity. God called Himself numerous times the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He promised that He would look out for these descendent. Islam requires their killing. Satan wanted Jews dead because the Christ would come from Jews. Now he wants them dead to force God to break His promise to return them to their homeland, bring their enemies to them, and then destroy them to prove He is their God.

Hey, ignorance is optional.



posted on Oct, 15 2008 @ 09:08 AM
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Turnabout is fair play.

I used to be a Christian. Christian people have lied, stolen from me, humiliated me, laughed in my face, used me, and treated me like general filth. Christian women treat me even worse, simply because I am not 'handsome' or rich.

And the reasoning? "God will forgive me! God likes me! Jesus loves me and blesses me!"

I have been talking on and off to a nice sweet Muslim girl. I told her all about me, even sent a pic. She cant marry me for obvious reasons- her family would disown her, and probably want me beat to a pulp, even tho she wont say it. She has treated me like a human being, and not like some subhuman worm. We have discussions on everything, and I even kidded her once about not owning a camel. She took it with a laugh. Christians? If the jokes on them, they are offend, or "God doesn't like that!"

I have every confidence that even tho me and her are incompatible in only religion we'd marry each other in a heartbeat. She's upset at the fact she's "fat" as she put it, and is working to correct that problem- less junk food. The women here (all of them) go ape if anyone mentions that word- and a lot of them look like Jabba the Hutt after a trip to the $4.99 All You Can Eat!

I also notice I get smiles from the occasional single (Muslim) ones roaming the area when I am out.

As someone who has actual experience on both sides of the fence- yes, there's freaking lunatics on both sides- but it's EQUAL. The Christian side has learned to cover up a lot of it's atrocities quietly. And after a stint of tele evangelists, have learned that thievery, not violence, is a way to go.

I am not advocating either religion, but I certainly have had a nice intimate beating by the religious right of The US. To quote Winston from Ghostbusters: "I have seen (crap) that'd turn you white."

I'd marry a Muslim in a heartbeat. After what i have been thru, I renounced my religion anyway- I am disgusted with how the sheeple act. More like Wolf-ple, if you ask me.



posted on Oct, 15 2008 @ 11:24 AM
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reply to post by wylekat
 


How does your dating problems and a severe lack of self esteem prove your point? In the western world if you think very little of your self people will ignore you trust me. Self confidence is needed when dealing with a woman it has nothing to do with what religion they practice. And judging from your post it appears it was a self fullfiling prophecy.



posted on Oct, 15 2008 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


And how the (CENSORED), (CENSORED), (CENSORED!!!!) Do you think I got that way?! I woke up one morning and decided "Ahhh! today, I'll have low self esteem!"? It Doesn't. Work. Like. That. And you know it.

Try again. You know, and I very much know, the actions of people do eventually affect one's thinking, confidence and a LOT of other things. It's like trying to live in a vacuum- you need to take a breath, or you suffocate! People act like inbred, stupid, ignorant losers and make your life hell, you end up a mess, no matter how confident, smart or anything else you start out to be.



posted on Oct, 15 2008 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by wylekat
 

I apologize in advance that this is off topic, but I'm trying to give this guy a brief heads-up.

Uhn, Let's get this first one out of the way. I think the fact that you've struck out with Christian women and found a fat sympathetic Muslim woman is no reason to prefer one religion over the other.

Just a clue. When my various friends and I would go out, I had to "school" them on how to act. First - women can smell desperation on a man like fresh dookey. These guys were horny, and every woman in the place knew it. They may as well have held a sign in one head that read, "How about a high, hard one?", and in the other hand, one that read, "I'll take anything!"

You go out and you have to intentionally mind your own business, and intentionally go with the attitude that I'm not looking for anyone, anything, and I am happy with me.

Your behavior around women truly will enable your success. Talk to some other guys that are having success and see if they have some similar suggestions.

I can tell you right now that your frustration isn't helping anything. A woman wants a confident man, one who can provide and protect both her and her brood, and one who is virile and sure of his manhood. I'm not suggesting that you are not, but maybe you are doing the wrong sell.

Salesmen use indirect tactics. The female of the species as a group, do not like the direct approach.

One other thing. Women like to laugh. It's like the key to everything. In every survey taken to date on what women find attractive, you'll find a good sense of humor in the top two. Usually number one.

Back up, take a deep breath, relax, and give it a whirl. There's someone perfect for everyone.

Good luck. And good hunting.



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 03:58 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


I am a Muslim Turk.I want to say that Quran involoves some amazing information which proves that Quran is sent from God . This can't be denied.
You will have plenty of info about that topic on the web site: www.harunyahya.com
I want to give you some examples then want to make you think about some points.
You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)
As you see Allah has informed us that mountains are moving.You see as it is not but they are moving like clouds.You can have more info from the web site ı gave. (Please visit this web site you will get plenty of info about Quran)
On the other hand I read that some of you wrote some hadiths that you made wrong comments on them.You want to prove that İslam spread over people with sword or choice between death or being Muslim.But you forget that Prophet Muhammed(S.A.V) was alone when he started his invitation to İslam.And you don't mention how the first People became muslim.bu Abu Bekr was one of the rcihest man in Mecca , Omar was one of the most powerful man in mecca.They became muslims because they saw the facts they realised that Muhammed peace be upon him is messenger of Allah.For example first muslims became muslim after they heard sentences from Quran.On 7.th century Arabian people were really good on poetry and literature.They made incredible improvment on poetry.Quran has such fluency and eloquence that nobody could wrote such sentences even they were really good at literature and poetry. So the ones who realised that fact ,accept Quran is not a word that a man can wrigt or say.And on the other hand Muhammed (S.A.V) didn't know how to write and read,so it is impossible that He could say such beautiful words.On the other hand mankind cannot form a book like Quran.This means that they cannot form a book like its literature features and fluency and eloquence.İf you replace a word in Quran with another which has the same meaning you will see(İf you know arabic very well) that the meaning of the ayeth has changed.
So many arabian people tried to form an ayeth like in Quran , but they failed.And I want to ask you that tell me one man who is loved as much as Muhammed (aleyhisselam) is loved from his companions.İf you read the lives of the companions of The Prophet you will see how they loved him.And if you know Prophet's Life you will see he was really poor even he was the only leader among Arabian people.Some times he was hunger for two days or more.How can you explain these?
you say that İslam orders Muslims to kill non- muslims.That is not true.You try to make comment on an ayeth of Quran without taking no education about Arabic, Science of Quran and Hadith.So you all make wrong comments.I want to give you some examples from some İslam Leader who were devout Muslims lived in the way ıof Quran during their whole life.
Sultan Mehmed the Conquerer: He gave an order that protects Cristians rights in Istanbul after he conquered İstanbul.
Sultan Bayezid II:He helped the Jewish people and let them live in Anotolia.
Sultan Saladin:He attacked Jerusalam after he failed to protect muslims rights with peace.Because Cristians attacked on muslim caravans.And after conquest he let cristians to go their lan or stay in jerusalam, but before cristians killed all the muslims in Jerusalam when they took the city.
Omaar Ibn Hattab: he is the second most important leader in İslam History.He is the companion of Prophet.You must rea his life to see how he is fair among muslims nad non-muslims when he was caliphate of Muslim.
Even he waited a cristian caravan all night to protect them from any attack.
You must look at Muslims life.You can't make comments on ayeth but you can see the effects of these ayeths on Muslims that lived like a real muslims.



posted on Oct, 19 2008 @ 05:46 AM
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reply to post by Kailassa
 


A man who calls a woman uncovered meat for not dressing the way he thinks a woman should not dress is nothing more than a diseased dog, and should be treated like all diseased dogs are treated.



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