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Islam: What the West needs to know.

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posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by Islam_solutionforhumanity

I never said women are inferior. In Islam, men and women are considered equal in terms of earning reward in the hereafter (the main purpose) but at the same time we realize that men have their strengths and weaknesses and so do women. Different does NOT mean inferior.


Cut the crap okay? We both know that in many Muslim countries such as Syria, Marocco and others, women are treated as inferior human beings.




Even considering the allegations that Islam mistreats the women, let me share something with you:



So what? There are also examples of women converting to Christianity. And even more examples of Muslim women converting to atheism.

In general those who convert to Islam, are people who were bullied or outsiders of our community. I've seen enough examples of such.

Conclusion:
Religion sucks and does more harm than good, believe in God is good. After hundreds of years of violence this world is still full of these morons doing more damage than good.




posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by Mdv2
 





Cut the crap okay? We both know that in many Muslim countries such as Syria, Marocco and others, women are treated as inferior human beings.


I agree with you, in Muslim countries women are treated as inferior citizens. But is that Islam? Once again, study the religion, not the practices of its adherents of recent times.




So what? There are also examples of women converting to Christianity. And even more examples of Muslim women converting to atheism. In general those who convert to Islam, are people who were bullied or outsiders of our community. I've seen enough examples of such.


Maybe there are examples, but do you have statistics so we can compare?
100 vs 10,000 is not equal (just as an example). For sake of argument, even if I agree that they were bullied or outsider. Why Islam? Such people are searching for acceptance,love and answers......maybe its something that Islam or Muslims provide? Also, considering that women are treated as second class citizens nowadays in many Muslim countries, wouldn't that be an argument against Islam for these people searching for acceptance?



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 08:28 AM
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It is very sad to see the hate pushing going on here. I am sure the haters have never even met a Muslim. It is a strange hobby, spreading hate. Live by hate and you will die by hate.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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ROFL

Christians and Muslims both worship the same god. They are two faces of the same religion. (Three, actually, since both stem from Judism. A Holy Trinity, if you will) Anyone who condemns the Quran for espousing barbaric and heinous atrocities in the name of god have not looked very far into their own fire & brimstone Old Testament. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", was it? The only difference between Christian faith and Muslim faith in regards to violence and bigotry, is that the Christian faith has more or less been tempered by modern values, whereas the Islamic faith is still largely struggling with this modernization.

Both religions have the capacity for boundless charity and love - as they both contain the capacity for the justification of genocide and untold human suffering. Where you fall on which side of the issues discussed in your holy books depends on the culture you live in and your interpretation of it. Which parts do you accept into your life, and which do you discard.

However, I would argue that if humans are capable of making such interpretations and decisions on the moral correctness of bits and pieces of their so-claimed moral guides - then the are not moral guides at all and we do not get our morality from these holy books... but from within ourselves and therefore do not need those books.

[edit on 1-10-2008 by Lasheic]



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 07:18 PM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


I once watched a National Geographic Channel show on the Cain & Able Story where I believe it was an Egyptian Professor of Islamic Studies give a dead on analysis of what went down between Cain & Able. He said Able did not fight back when he was attacked by his brother Cain. Able "turned the other cheek" as is the law and way in Heaven. Can't for the life of me figure out why there is so much rage among Muslims when they too know the "Law". But then, so called "Christians" also know the "Law" and do not follow what they preach. Fun times... Peace.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 08:57 PM
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This thread is a perfect example of the problems of the real world that are going on now. Christians saying Islam is an "evil" religion, Islams counter-attacking. Why can't everyone just get along?!


I have a copy of the Qur'an which I have read through numerous times. It is in English, so please do NOT say that it wasn't a "true" version because it wasn't in Arabic. That is an invalid argument or it states that God/Allah is racist and thinks everyone should learn Arabic.

On that note, the Qur'an did have some passages where women are clearly shown to be inferior to men...just like the Bible does. The problem with following a book, the Bible or the Qur'an, is that it doesn't cover everything, so the reader has to interpret to adjust to new situations. This is what starts wars, murders, jihads, and hatred.

If I haven't lost your attention yet, I'm going to state my personal belief on religion et al. I believe that, if there were a God, this God would try to speak to people as they can best understand him according to their level of advancement in knowledge. If a God truly cared about us, this God would not just talk to a couple people, send his Son and/or Prophet, and then leave. I think it would be logical to assume that, if there was a God, this God wants a personal relationship with each of his creation. Perhaps each book of the different monotheistic religions are interpretations of the same God, written to the prophet's best ability to interpret what would undoubtedly be too divine for words.

The best way I can put this is to think of humankind as a single person for a moment. Imagine in the beginning, we were like a child: unable to understand science and complex logical situations. Imagine God as the parent. When the child is too young to understand, the parent must give rules so that the child obeys and knows what is right and good. As the child develops and is more able to understand, the parent can then show, perhaps through example of his Son or perhaps through a Prophet in this case, why it is better to do these things. I would then go so far as to imagine that once that child becomes an adult, the parent and child can have a relationship in which benefits everyone.

Please know this is simply my personal opinion of what would make sense to me presuming there is one God. I would imagine that this God would be open to all people, perhaps showing himself differently because different societies are in different forms of their ability to understand. Regardless if you agree with me or not, the hatred and bickering between religions and even atheists and agnostics should stop! Nothing gets accomplished except hurt feelings, frustration, anger, and contempt.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by ShooterSix
 


i hope u burn in hell



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 09:44 PM
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Christians kill, torture, maim, burn, slaughter and destroy in the name of God. 700 years ago
Muslims kill, torture, maim, burn, slaughter and destroy in the name of Allah. Now, in the 21st century


I think the Dispatches documentary Undercover Mosque sums the situation up quite well.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 11:29 PM
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To the agnostic/atheist readers (and everyone else of course), I would suggest reading a book called Sacred Freedom: Western Liberalist Ideologies In The Light Of Islam.

You can find out more about it here at: sacredfreedom.com...

This book best describes why Islam rejects democracy and so-called "modernization" of the religion.



posted on Oct, 2 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by dooper
 


YES YOU DID TRY AND START A RELIGIOUS ARGUMENT. Your post spreads a message of hate. Even if you are just showing someone else that is spewing hatred you are guilty of spreading it further. Not only are you a liar you should be ashamed to call yourself Christian. The message of Christ is to ramove hatred all together and to spread love and peace. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and does anything else is a Liar and has broken of their OWN Gods laws. I am a Christian, I love Christ , as he lives in EVERY man. Todays Church is not CHRISTS church, dont fool yourself...........The Vatican is the most Evil entity on earth bar none, and the most listened to Protestant evangelists are among the west Most wealthy and politically influentual, at least in the U.S. And the people they put in Power cause the MOST DEATH worldwide..........Bottom Line......If you are a true Christian then have the courage to LEAVE the church(antichrist) and start doing what you are supposed to



posted on Oct, 2 2008 @ 03:16 PM
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Islam: What the West needs to know.


just these few things, really:

islam means 'submit' and this is what they mean by 'religion of peace':

all humans must submit to islam if there is any hope for peace (still no guarantee, who kills more muslims than muslims?)

islam cannot exist without being dominate.

this does not mean converting to islam:

dhimmitude:

chrsitians and jews can exist, but must submit to islamic rule, to exist in as dhimmis and pay the jizya

other religions may also enjoy this oppression, atheists must accept a religion or be killed.

taqiyya and kitman:

also, in islam, lying to ignorant non muslims (infidels, kafir; thats you and me) about the true nature of islam, for the purpose of dominating all governments and societies, is allah-approved and encouraged.

it is also a common practice to keep muslims ignorant about the true nature of islam, we know these muslims as your average, moderate muslim who cannot understand why terrorists do what they do, in the name of allah.


"If the West wants to have peace, then they have to accept Islamic rule."
- cleric Abu Bakar Bashir

they're not kidding, allah is very clear on this point, and allah allows any means for his devoted to satisfy the demand that this must be a muslim world.

what better way to begin learning more about islam, than by the words of former muslims, who risk their life by leaving islam:

Islam Under Scrutiny by Ex-Muslims

any questions?



posted on Oct, 2 2008 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by bosna87
reply to post by ShooterSix
 


i hope u burn in hell


Does that mean I won't get my 72 virgins to have my way with?



posted on Oct, 2 2008 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by feydrautha
 


True, Islam was meant to dominate but do you know the logic behind it? We Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Messenger of God and Islam is the truth while all else is falsehood. We also believe that disbelievers (kaafirs) are going to punished in hell eternally. Now if any person believes all this, do you think it is befitting for him to sit quietly and do nothing about it? Where is the compassion for humanity if you are willing to let them suffer a terrible doom?

Islam, we believe is the religion ordained by God for humanity. Such a religion should have the upper hand since this is what God wants people to do. We believe that Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) were Messengers of God but they were meant for their people for their time and people and had their own laws. Jesus's (peace be upon him)laws did not involve violence as far as I know because war was not necessary for his people (the lost sheep of the House of Israel). If Christians truly practiced what they preached, then the Crusades would have never happened. People like George Bush who claims to be a good Christian and also claims that God talks to him should never have been elected twice! Everyone knows his agenda.......democracy should be spread to all parts of the world, by hook or by crook.

Moses (peace be upon him) in the Bible approved of holy war!


GOD Almighty Chose the land of Palestine to be the Jews' "Promise Land", and thus, ordered them to go into it and fight the pagans there so they can have possession over it:

Numbers 13:26-28 26 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 They gave Moses this account: "We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit. 28 But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.

One simple Question: Did the disbelievers in the land of Palestine during the times of Moses start any war with the Hebrews who ORIGINALLY came from Egypt?? Absolutely Not! Later on, the Hebrews or the "Israelites" or the "Jews" (call them as you wish) have committed Pedophilia, Murders and Terrorism against those disbelievers:

"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)" Now what crime did the innocent children and non-virgin women commit in order for them to get killed?


My point is not to bash Christianity and Judaism, all I am saying is that the concept of Jihad is in the Bible and Christians themselves haven't proven in the past that they want to exist without dominating.

Now back to Jihad, we Muslims do not believe in killing every non-Muslim we encounter. The first step in the process is invitation to Islam. The message of God should be conveyed clearly to the non-Muslims and their doubts should be cleared with wisdom and beautiful preaching. If they still do not choose to accept Islam then if they are Jews, Christians or Magians, they are asked to pay jizyah (tax) and come under Islamic rule or face a state of war. If they are polytheists, then there will be a state of war between them and the Muslims( no jizyah).

In Islam, we believe that denying the existence of God or worshipping others besides God is a heinous crime, in fact the greatest crime there is. It is worse than murder and is most detestable in the sight of God. God has commanded us to fight such people for His sake so that His ordained religion prevails. (continued)



posted on Oct, 2 2008 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by feydrautha
 


Now keep in mind that after the message of Islam has been conveyed and proven to these people, yet they continue to reject Islam due to stubbornness, arrogance, etc. They also pose a threat to Muslims because they might 1) attack them at any time (what would compel an atheist to live upto his word?) and by trying to spread their corrupt ideologies and beliefs.




also, in islam, lying to ignorant non muslims (infidels, kafir; thats you and me) about the true nature of islam, for the purpose of dominating all governments and societies, is allah-approved and encouraged.


This is so not true! Islam must be conveyed in its original form without any additions or deletions. It is a major sin to lie about the nature of Islam. I cant say that "God loves disbelievers" just to please you. I would be lying about God. You are confusing tactics of war with preaching. Have you ever heard the saying "everything is fair in love and war"? I don't agree with this but in cases of necessity, lying and concealing is permitted. You don't tell your battle plans to the the opposing army just for the sake of being truthful. In fact you use every psychological means to gain the upper hand in a war. This is practiced in modern warfare as well. Propaganda is a tool used by Americans and others to demoralize the enemy.

In short, Islam permits lying in cases of necessity, not for the heck of it, just as eating pork is allowed in cases of necessity. It is a flexible religion, not a strict code which you have to follow or else.




what better way to begin learning more about islam, than by the words of former muslims, who risk their life by leaving islam:


You can also learn about Islam from converts who accept Islam with their own free will and face countless difficulties due to this. You can ask them why they accept Islam. Look at the whole picture, not just parts of it.



posted on Oct, 2 2008 @ 10:38 PM
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reply to post by Islam_solutionforhumanity
 



Now back to Jihad, we Muslims do not believe in killing every non-Muslim we encounter. The first step in the process is invitation to Islam. The message of God should be conveyed clearly to the non-Muslims and their doubts should be cleared with wisdom and beautiful preaching. If they still do not choose to accept Islam then if they are Jews, Christians or Magians, they are asked to pay jizyah (tax) and come under Islamic rule or face a state of war. If they are polytheists, then there will be a state of war between them and the Muslims( no jizyah).

In Islam, we believe that denying the existence of God or worshipping others besides God is a heinous crime, in fact the greatest crime there is. It is worse than murder and is most detestable in the sight of God. God has commanded us to fight such people for His sake so that His ordained religion prevails.


If you were trying to make a case to defend Islam to the free thinkers and free peoples of this forum and the world, then you have failed miserably. That to which you speak is more frightening and more detestable than any of the cartoonish stereotypes levied against Islam I have heard here or elsewhere.

[edit on 2-10-2008 by Lasheic]



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 01:20 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


I understand your concerns, but there is a great wisdom behind all of God's laws and commandments. Muslims themselves, when commanded to fight initially detested it:


216. Jihâd (holy fighting in Allâh's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allâh knows but you do not know.

217. They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar). Say, "Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever."


We believe God knows what is best for us. After all he created us and knows us better than we know ourselves. We should not challenge God's authority. God knew the intentions of the pagans and their plans. He commanded Muslims to do what is in everyone's best interest.

Another couple of verses shed light on this issue (from Chapter 8):


72. Verily, those who believed, and emigrated and strove hard and fought with their property and their lives in the Cause of Allâh as well as those who gave (them) asylum and help, - these are (all) allies to one another. And as to those who believed but did not emigrate (to you O Muhammad SAW), you owe no duty of protection to them until they emigrate, but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, and Allâh is the All-Seer of what you do.

73. And those who disbelieve are allies to one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so (i.e. become allies, as one united block with one Khalifah - chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world to make victorious Allâh's Religion of Islâmic Monotheism), there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism, etc.) and oppression on earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism).


Oppression on earth and mischief is the result of Muslims becoming divided and abandoning Jihad when necessary. This can be seen today, both Muslims and non-Muslims are suffering worldwide due to Muslims not fulfilling their duty toward God (yes I am blaming the Muslims). Wealth is concentrated in the hand of a few while people are starving to death in Africa. The global economy is on the verge of collapse. Violent crimes such as murder, rape, theft etc. are commonplace, even in the the USA. Is this what we want? Is this what our children deserve to inherit? Under an ideal worldwide Islamic society, the situation would be a lot different. The poor would get charity, women would be treated with respect, the elderly will be cared for, theft and alcoholism would not be an issue and the list goes on and on.

Islam would provide the solution for humanity.......its a different thing that the majority of humanity isnt willing to give Islam a chance! In the US, its printed on paper money "In God we Trust". Do we really trust God? Then why are doing what we want to do rather than what God wants us to do?



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 02:31 AM
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reply to post by Islam_solutionforhumanity
 





I understand your concerns, but there is a great wisdom behind all of God's laws and commandments.


Great wisdom can be found in many sources. What makes the Torah, Gospels, or Qu'ran any different? Much of what's found in those books (as well as wisdom found elsewhere) is often left up to the interpretation of the reader (and Islam is no exception, as evident by the various tribes and sects - and violence between them, ala Shiites and Sunnis for example)

If the Qu'ran (or other holy books) is open to interpretation, then the moral compass which guides humanity is not found in that book - but within themselves. So where does YOUR moral compass lead you in regards to murder, reverence, slavery, rape, free speech, etc.




We believe God knows what is best for us. After all he created us and knows us better than we know ourselves.


While this may or may not be the case, what evidence is there to suggest that the Qu'ran or ANY holy books are the divinely written word of god? What tangible evidence outside of fallible, decievable, and alterable human experience tells you that that book is God's own word. What outside source of verification do you have?

Quoting scripture to me will do little good, because unless I can verify beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that it actually IS the word of god, you might as well be quoting the ancient elven wisdom found JRR Tolkens works.

This is something that NONE of the major world religions have been able to satisfactorily do - because if they COULD accomplish it, then there would be only ONE world religion - and you wouldn't need conquest or conversion to spread it. It would be self-evident and spread itself by virtue of it's truth.

Entertain, for a moment, the thought that what if... just what if... your holy books are not the word of god. In this hypothetical situation, how would you feel about yourself having undertaken the actions you espouse against non-believers?



We should not challenge God's authority.


I'm of the opinion that were god truly omnipotent and omnicient, then there would be no possible way we COULD challenge god's authority. And we wouldn't rely on man to dole out divine punishment, but it would be issued at the hands of god himself. But that evidently isn't the case. God, for some reason, wishes man to impart suffering and tragedy upon his fellow man in his name and in compliance with his laws.



God knew the intentions of the pagans and their plans. He commanded Muslims to do what is in everyone's best interest.


This reeks of apologetics to me. Again, going to the above point. Why would an all powerful, all knowing, and all loving god send men to do his dirty work of punishing heritics, rather than taking matters into his own hands and showing us, definitively, that defiance of his laws will not be tolerated? To me, it appears to be a cover for men to behave inhumanely to each other and justify it by claiming divine providence.



Oppression on earth and mischief is the result of Muslims becoming divided and abandoning Jihad when necessary.


Oppression and mischief (which, depending on the definition I wouldn't consider a sin), are a result of man's action against their fellow man. We are responsible for our own actions.



Wealth is concentrated in the hand of a few while people are starving to death in Africa. The global economy is on the verge of collapse. Violent crimes such as murder, rape, theft etc. are commonplace, even in the the USA. Is this what we want?


No, these issues are not the kind we want to dominate the world we live in. However, they have been with us throughout time immemorial, even in times when religion (be it Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Egyptian, Greek Mythos, etc) ruled the political arena. I believe we do live better, safer, happier, and more peaceful lives than we did in the middle ages. These issues So I don't think religious reverence is the key, the panacea, for all the worlds ills. We've tried that for thousands of years and it hasn't worked. It's still being tried in many areas of the world now, and it's not working.

You may say they're not putting enough effort into it, but I would contend that it's alot like communism in that - it looks pretty good on paper and in promise, but the reality of the situation is that it can NEVER work, if only because we as mere falliable humans will never attain that goal to which we would need to aspire to even see if it would work.

In the end, you'll only end up compounding the problem - rather than offering a real solution to it.




In the US, its printed on paper money "In God we Trust". Do we really trust God? Then why are doing what we want to do rather than what God wants us to do?


American currency never originally bore th slogan "In god we Trust". That was injected by religious groups around the time of the Civil War - and made permanent around the time of WWII IIRC. There is a lot of talk about "God" in our early historical and political documents, but "God" is a very ambiguous term that can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. No specific god was ever mentioned.

Galileo once reasoned: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” To this same conclusion, I trust that god has endowed me with these qualities for a reason. He also endowed me with the capacity for compassion, generosity, empathy, and love. Everything I know, and everything I am resonates with the assurance that the world you propose under guidance by Islamic scripture would be wrong, immoral, and a violation of our basic human rights. To subject mankind to islamic rule unchecked would be everybit as heinous as to deny one's right to worship whichever god they choose in whatever fashion they choose (provided it does not also hinder another's human rights).

I may not like or agree with other people's life choices, but I'd rather live in a world where I have deal with different, perhaps offensive, freely chosen ideas and values - than to see the right to live ones life as they see fit stripped away. If it means facing hell and your god's fury, then so be it.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 05:26 AM
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Originally posted by earthman4
It is very sad to see the hate pushing going on here. I am sure the haters have never even met a Muslim. It is a strange hobby, spreading hate. Live by hate and you will die by hate.



I have met many Muslims in my life time, heck there was a time when over 70% of my neighbors were Muslim(I used to live across the road from the large Mosque in Regents Park in London) and most of them are good honest people but on the other hand there are those who preach hate(a lot i might add). If you go to speakers corner in Hyde Park and listen to all of the Muslim preachers its all they preach. Death to America, death to the UK and death to the Kuffar(infidels, us). So please don't tell me i have never met a Muslim.

[edit on 3/10/2008 by MarkAkaSilent]



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 05:33 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


Before I start, I must say that I appreciate your questions and I am open to your views. My purpose is to convey the message, it is upto you to accept it or reject it.




Great wisdom can be found in many sources. What makes the Torah, Gospels, or Qu'ran any different? Much of what's found in those books (as well as wisdom found elsewhere) is often left up to the interpretation of the reader (and Islam is no exception, as evident by the various tribes and sects - and violence between them, ala Shiites and Sunnis for example) If the Qu'ran (or other holy books) is open to interpretation, then the moral compass which guides humanity is not found in that book - but within themselves. So where does YOUR moral compass lead you in regards to murder, reverence, slavery, rape, free speech, etc.


What makes the Torah, Gospels and Quran different is that this wisdom is from the Source of wisdom, from God Himself. Man can never be as smart and wise as God. The Gospels and the Torah were originally the Word of God but were altered by man. The Quran gives the promise that "We (God) will guard it from corruption" and it has stood the test of time. The Quran is God's word which is unadulterated and unparalleled. Those Muslims who refer to the original sources of Islam (Quran and saheeh ahadith (authentic statements of the Prophet (peace be upon him))) will never disagree on any major matter in religion. Those who interpret it according to their whims and desires (Shiites for example) will definitely concoct innovations. There are areas of Islam which are open to human reasoning (God recognizes that man has the ability to use intellect and many Islamic scholars have different opinions which are within the fold of Islam), but the major areas are defined and guidelines have been given regarding major issues. Islam is a comprehensive religion which covers every aspect of life.

The issue you have raised about interpretation is an important one so let me address it. As Muslims, we are forbidden to speak about the Quran without knowledge. We also cannot attribute anything to God without proof. The reason why there are so many sects is that people are making this mistake. At the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him), there was no concept of sects and Islam prohibits breaking into sects. The people followed the interpretation of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and spoke with knowledge, which is lacking in Muslims today.

Everyone has a different set of values. To one person raping may be good and fulfilling whereas to others, it may be abhorrent. Where is the yardstick? The yardstick is the command of the One who created good and evil. He defines and we conform.





While this may or may not be the case, what evidence is there to suggest that the Qu'ran or ANY holy books are the divinely written word of god? What tangible evidence outside of fallible, decievable, and alterable human experience tells you that that book is God's own word. What outside source of verification do you have?


The Quran openly challenges humankind to produce anything like it. It openly challenges mankind to reflect and use their intellect. It contains references to facts which were not known at that time but are recently discovered. It contains prophecies, information about the past, present and future which noone could have known at the time it was being revealed. A single logical, grammatical, mathematical, scientific or any type of mistake or inaccuracy would render it invalid. (God does not make mistakes). Consider the Quran with care, as it states, and find a single flaw, this is an open challenge to all people of all times. It moved the Arabs of that time and is moving people today, 1400 years later. All of this, can it be the work of an illiterate man? (continued....I apologize for the lengthy replies)



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 05:36 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


The Quran was revealed to a man who lived a life of 40 years before prophethood and never uttered a lie or commited an indecency in a society where the people were savages and barbaric. Why would a person who wouldn't lie about the smallest matter lie about God? We can discuss each of these points in detail, you can ask questions, I can quote examples of all I am stating.




To subject mankind to islamic rule unchecked would be everybit as heinous as to deny one's right to worship whichever god they choose in whatever fashion they choose (provided it does not also hinder another's human rights). I may not like or agree with other people's life choices, but I'd rather live in a world where I have deal with different, perhaps offensive, freely chosen ideas and values - than to see the right to live ones life as they see fit stripped away. If it means facing hell and your god's fury, then so be it.


Choosing an idol for worship does not hinder human rights but it violates the rights of God. Surely those rights must have some significance. Islam, as i said does not limit individuality. A scientist can be a Muslim, an engineer can be a Muslim but there are rules there to benefit you regarding your dealings with people and your relationship with God. The Quran commands all that is good and prohibits all that is harmful. Islam place a restriction where peoples rights and dignity is violated (stealing, rape etc.) as well as God's rights (blasphemy, idol worship etc.). God does not like ingratitude and He expects you to be thankful to Him for His favours. Is that too much to ask? Why should you worship false deities when He alone created you and provides for you? Its like thanking your neighbor for giving birth to you instead of your mum! Is that reasonable?

I hope you consider my views with an open mind and I am open to any questions or criticism. I would love to continue this discussion 24 hours a day but I am an MBA student and have other obligations as well so please dont mind if my responses are not prompt, especially after next week when my holidays end. Thankyou



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