only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven

reply to post by doctorex

People are deceived into thinking they are following God, when they are not, for instance, do you observe the Sabbath on the day God demands? Do you shun Christianized pagan days such as Christmas and Easter, and observe instead God's Holy days, those observed by the Apostles even after the death of Jesus? Do you tithe? Do you know that God is not a trinity? Jesus said his flock was a little flock, and only few would find the way. He also said that only God can call them into that way. The truth is that 99% of Seventh Day Adventist church!

The Church of God is quite ready to say to anyone that will listen:

"How DARE you worship God on a SUNDAY! Don't you know that worshiping God on a Sunday is the mark of the beast??? SATURDAY is the day to worship God...not SUNDAY!"

They take a delight in telling people that they are worshiping God on the WRONG DAY!

How SILLY is this?

I imagine this skit would gets howls of laughter in the CoG meetings:

"Hey Bob, whatcha doing?"
Bob replies, "Worshiping God."
"BOB!!! Don't you know it is SUNDAY? STOP IT! You SHOULD have done that YESTERDAY!"

Bob and his buddy takes a bow before the rest of the gathering and everyone applauds.

Yet the Bible says:
Romans 14:5-6 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

The Church of God is QUITE WELCOME to make "Saturday" their day that they get together. And I am welcome to esteem EVERY DAY ALIKE! Others can make WEDNESDAY their "day". WE are NOT free to make that into a requirement for everyone else. The weak (in Romans 14) are the ones coming up with all the rules for diet and days.

The weak are always the ones making up the rules for diet and days.

The Church of God has a lot of rules for diet and days.

My skit:
"Hey Ron, I really liked the BACON wrapped SHRIMP served the other day at your (Church of God) luncheon."

I take a bow to thunderous LAUGHTER and applause within the Armstrongism crowd.

(The Armstrongism folks don't eat pork or shellfish)



[edit on 30-11-2008 by PreTribGuy]

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by doctorex

 

People are deceived into thinking they are following God, when they are not, for instance, do you observe the Sabbath on the day God demands? Do you shun Christianized pagan days such as Christmas and Easter, and observe instead God's Holy days, those observed by the Apostles even after the death of Jesus? Do you tithe? Do you know that God is not a trinity? Jesus said his flock was a little flock, and only few would find the way. He also said that only God can call them into that way.

The Church of God is quite ready to say to anyone that will listen:

"How DARE you worship God on a SUNDAY! Don't you know that worshiping God on a Sunday is the mark of the beast??? SATURDAY is the day to worship God...not SUNDAY!"

They take a delight in telling people that they are worshiping God on the WRONG DAY!

How SILLY is this?

I imagine this skit would gets howls of laughter in the CoG meetings:

"Hey Bob, whatcha doing?"
Bob replies, "Worshiping God."
"BOB!!! Don't you know it is SUNDAY? STOP IT! You SHOULD have done that YESTERDAY!"

Bob and his buddy takes a bow before the rest of the gathering and everyone applauds.

Believe whatever you want, but I can assure you nothing like that takes place. It's not about being wrong worshiping God on Sunday, but the Sabbath day (Saturday) is they day we are supposed to come together in congregation to be be taught. You do realize that SUNday was the pagan day of worship, don't you. You do realise the day that Christ observed as the Sabbath don't you? You do understand the day the Apostles observed don't you?

Yet the Bible says:
Romans 14:5-6 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Yes, Sunday observers like to quote that passage, but they seem to be forgetting the context in which is given, namely about fasting, which days it is okay to fast and which days not to fast, it is saying it is up to each person which day, not which day to come together to observe the Sabbath. Read it again.

The Church of God is QUITE WELCOME to make "Saturday" their day that they get together. And I am welcome to esteem EVERY DAY ALIKE! Others can make WEDNESDAY their "day". WE are NOT free to make that into a requirement for everyone else.

Again, you are twisting a passage that is about fasting, not Sabbath observance. No body is making up rules, they are simply following God. What day does God say the Sabbath is?

The weak are always the ones making up the rules for diet and days

The Church of God has a lot of rules for diet and days.
My skit:
"Hey Ron, I really liked the BACON wrapped SHRIMP served the other day at your (Church of God) luncheon."

I take a bow to thunderous LAUGHTER and applause within the Armstrongism crowd.

(The Armstrongism folks don't eat pork or shellfish)

The weak? Who is it that made up these laws? Was it Herbert Armstrong, or was is God? You do realize you are calling God weak don't you?

Also, I notice you keep calling it the Church of God. You do know what the Church is called in scripture don't you? Was it the Church of Christ? The church of latter day saints? The seventh day adventist church? The Baptist church? The methodist church? The catholic church? The Lutheran church? The church of England? What exactly is the church called in scripture I wonder?

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Corinthians 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

2Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

1Timothy 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Yes, you are right about what the church of God teaches, but why do you mock it? I asked you to show me through scripture what the church of God teaches that is heretical, and all you can come up with is a passage about fasting twisted out of context, and mocking little skits, but I'm not surprised in the least.

God bless.

[edit on 1/12/08 by doctorex]

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by doctorex

 

Note in the verses that John is told the number, he doesn't count them. It doesn't say the number is what no man can count, but the multitude of people. Do you think you, or any man, could look on a group of 144,000 people and count them? No. John is told the number of them that were sealed, then he is shown them, and by his words he is obviously overwhelmed by the vision.

Doctorex is making the ridiculous argument that a crowd of 12 x 12,000 could not possibly be counted by men.

In Numbers 1:46 we see that a much larger number of the Hebrew children were counted. These were only men 20 years old or older:

Numbers 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

Right there in the book of Numbers, we've got a MUCH larger amount of men being counted.

So...with just that verse it disproves the point Doctorex is trying to argue for.

Um, no it doesn't. Do you think one guy looked upon a crowd of 603,550 people and counted them just by BEHOLDing them. No. The verse in revelation is talking about John looking upon a vast multitude that no man could number by looking at them. It is simply an expression. Even if this vast multitude was not the 144.000, it would still be a finite number, and therefore be countable, wouldn't it? You simply miss what John is saying.

Furthermore, where is "Job" listed here in the 144,000? Abraham? Noah? LOT? Of which tribe is LOT?

Like I said, the Israel of God is now spiritual. You are hung up on the physical.

The plain wording in verse 9 not only signifies a different TIME(frame), but it also describes a different, but perhaps inclusive, multitude.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

What was this after? It was after the sealing, wasn't it. You are simply reading a different time frame into it.

The 144,000 are being sealed before the tribulation, the great multitude in verse 9 is those who have come OUT of (AFTER) the great tribulation (Rev. 7:14)

So you think only those who go through the end time tribulation are the only Christians to ever go through great tribulation? You can't be serious? Tell that to Steven, and tell that to the Apostles when they are resurrected.

The 144,000 are all virgins and they are all MEN:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Women are symbolic of churches, both true and false. God's church is called the bride of Christ. Once again you are hung up on the physical, forgetting that God's church is also called a virgin.

2Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

They are also the FIRSTfruits...meaning there are MORE.

Exactly, the 144,000 are called the first fruits unto God. You are forgetting there is more than one resurrection. This is the first resurrection mentioned later in Revelation...

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The rest do not come until after the 1000 year reign of Christ...

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The 144,000 stands with the Lord Jesus on the mount of Zion, the great multitude are before the throne of God.

You are missing the symbolism. Mountains are symbolic of kingdoms. Mount Zion was always a symbol of the kingdom of God on Earth. These are they who reign with Christ on Earth, which is also before the throne of God, isn't it?

The 144,000 described in Rev 7 includes the tribe of Levi (the priests), but in 1 Peter 2:9, the Holy Spirit calls the Saints a royal priesthood:
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Only those of the tribe of Levi were allowed to be priests in the OT and they received no promise of any land inheritance. Yet Jesus said the meek will inherit the EARTH.

The 144,000 are divided by tribes, the great multitude (of verse 9) says nothing about tribes.

Again.....you are thinking physically, forgetting that Israel is now spiritual, and encompasses even the gentiles, yes, those of all nations and tongues.

Well...I've said enough to the readers here. I think I've proved my point.

You proved something, you proved Jesus correct....

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


[edit on 1/12/08 by doctorex]

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by doctorex

 

Emphasis mine:

If what the church of God teaches is heretical, show it through scripture, don't just simply say "it's heresy", because it's not what the majority believe.

majority?

MAJORITY?

I can allow that I have misread what you've posted and you meant something else? But, as it stands, you have made an outrageous statement.

Majority of WHOM...Doctorex?

Majority of mankind? Of those who call themselves Christians? Of the CoG?

EVEN IF you meant only those in the CoG, you imply that those in the CoG don't even believe the doctrine that the CoG preaches!

No, the majority of what the world calls Christianity, your orthodoxy that you love.

The Church of God doctrine is laughable and is rejected by Orthodox Christianity.

Of course it is rejected by orthodox Christianity, because orthodox Christianity isn't based on scripture. Christ said only few find the true way, would he have said that if orthodox Christianity was the truth? No, he wouldn't would he. And why would we need God to call us into the truth, if it could be found in any old "church" building?

Dear readers, the Church of God's (heretical) doctrine is based (has it's roots) upon something called "Armstrongsim":

No, the church of God (as it is even called in scripture) is based on scripture, which you don't seem to understand. Orthodox Christianity on the other hand, bases it's roots in the catholic church, which bases it's roots in paganism. Now, make your choice: Paganism, or scripture? Bury your head in the sand if you wish, but the truth is there if you are willing to open your eyes and look.

[edit on 1/12/08 by doctorex]

reply to post by doctorex

Yes, Sunday observers like to quote that passage, but they seem to be forgetting the context in which is given, namely about fasting, which days it is okay to fast and which days not to fast, it is saying it is up to each person which day, not which day to come together to observe the Sabbath. Read it again.

The word "fast" (nesteuo) isn't used once after Acts in the New Testament. It isn't used once in the book of Romans and it certainly isn't mentioned in Romans 14. The passage is not about fasting.

I am growing weary of this dialog with you, Doctorex. I know what Armstrongism IS and I reject it. I throw it out with all the other garbage doctrine they have. I reject their "symbolism" approach to common English language.

The Bible says:
Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

This means I need to be able to trace my doctrine right back to what the apostles taught. I'm not allowed to embrace novel doctrine. Armstrongism brings in not only a novel doctrine, but it introduces another Gospel:

Gal 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I am no longer going to continue this conversation with you, Doctorex. I'm bored with it and the lack of responses from other people probably means THEY are bored with it also.

2 John 2:10

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by doctorex

 

Yes, Sunday observers like to quote that passage, but they seem to be forgetting the context in which is given, namely about fasting, which days it is okay to fast and which days not to fast, it is saying it is up to each person which day, not which day to come together to observe the Sabbath. Read it again.

The word "fast" (nesteuo) isn't used once after Acts in the New Testament. It isn't used once in the book of Romans and it certainly isn't mentioned in Romans 14. The passage is not about fasting.

Romans 14 is about eating. Here is the first two verses...

ROMANS 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Here is the last verse...

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

The whole chapter is about eating, you simply don't seem to see that, and want to twist this into Sabbath observance.

I am growing weary of this dialog with you, Doctorex. I know what Armstrongism IS and I reject it. I throw it out with all the other garbage doctrine they have. I reject their "symbolism" approach to common English language.

Then you reject scripture, because as I have shown you, that is what it is based on. So you also reject the parables of Christ?

The Bible says:
Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

This means I need to be able to trace my doctrine right back to what the apostles taught. I'm not allowed to embrace novel doctrine. Armstrongism brings in not only a novel doctrine, but it introduces another Gospel:

What exactly is novel about? You still don't seem to be able to answer that question. If you want to trace your doctrine back to the Apostles, did they observe the Sabbath, or Sunday?
Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Acts 13:13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Seems they did.

Any scriptures of them observing Easter? What about Christmas? Seems not. Hey, what about the God's Holy days?

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

1Corinthians 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.

Yes, seems they did. Well, I can trace the church of God's doctrine back to the Apostles, can you truly trace yours like you say?

Gal 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

You should truly have another read of that passage. Can you trace Sunday worship back the Apostles? Can you trace easter back to the Apostles? can you trace Christmas? No, you cannot.

I am no longer going to continue this conversation with you, Doctorex. I'm bored with it and the lack of responses from other people probably means THEY are bored with it also.

Suit yourself, but I think we both know why you don't want to continue this conversation. God bless.

Down here in Texas it seems the only TRUE path to salvation is through your wallet. Many Baptist and "non-denominational" churches (are those the same as the Born-again ones?) "expect" 10% of your earnings to go to the church. This allows "believers" to act as they wish during the week, fully knowing that come Sunday - all $in$ will be forgiven.

Originally posted by doctorex
The whole passage is about those who are sealed. Why would it even mention this sealing if it had nothing to do with the group discussed, a group John views directly AFTER HEARING the number of those who are sealed? It does not mention any contrast, suggesting they are separate groups.

there is nothing to specify that the ENTIRE passage is about those being sealed.

and there is several contrasts.

in verse 4 for example. the 144,000 are said to be taken out of the tribes of isreal whereas the great multitude is taken out of every tribe tongue and nation. now i understand chapter 14 does say that the 144,000 were brought from the earth and that they too come from every tribe and tongue and nation and people, however chapter 7 specifically contrasts this point. the 144,000 make up a spiritual isreal, the multitude do not.

verse 9 says the multitude is standing before the lamb. ch 14 verse 1 says the 144,000 are standing "with" the lamb.

7 verse 4, 144000 numbered, multitude unnumbered.

verse 13 specifically talks about the identity of this great multitude saying that they come out of this great tribulation. john identifies himself with the 144000 who rule with jesus, john saw no great tribulation. its talking about a separate group.

the 144000 are also depicted as the bride of christ. ch 21 vrse 2 describes this bride as a new jerusalem. what does the great multitude have to do with this bride/city/144000? ch 22 talks about a river flowing from the city curing the nations. which nations? ch 7 vs 17 talks about the great multitude being lead to waters of life. if the 144000 and the GM are the same then why would jesus use them to cure themselves?

in hebrews, paul says that the law was a shadow of things to come. so what was the arrangement of the law in moses' time? wasnt there a priestly class that asked for forgiveness on behalf of the nation?(lev 4:13-21) the whole nation wasnt priests, only the levites where. 2 separate groups.

the 144000 are this "priestly" class (rev 1:6)

the great multitude and those resurrected are the ones who benefit from these "waters of life"(rev 22), the "other sheep" (john 10:16)

simply saying its the same group because first he "hears" the number and then he "sees" the multitude leaves out all the other information packed into the verses.

People simply read that into the passage, because they don't want to address the fact that through 6,000 years there has only been 144,000 worthy of being sealed, and there is a reason for this.

People are deceived into thinking they are following God, when they are not, for instance, do you observe the Sabbath on the day God demands? Do you shun Christianized pagan days such as Christmas and Easter, and observe instead God's Holy days, those observed by the Apostles even after the death of Jesus? Do you tithe? Do you know that God is not a trinity? Jesus said his flock was a little flock, and only few would find the way. He also said that only God can call them into that way. The truth is that 99% of what the world calls "Christianity" is false, based on pagan beliefs, and directly contradicting scripture,

i agree, alot of people dont do things the way that they should. i also agree that those who find the narrow path will be alot less than those who find the broad path. however the scripture is not limiting salvation to 144000, nor is it prophesying that the total will be 144000. the 144000 are a specific group with a specific job. it is through their priesthood with jesus as high priest that mankind will be able to come close to god again.

the second half of 7 isnt saying that everyone will make it through, its simply saying that there will be a big group (from the perspective of a person looking at them) that survive the tribulation. its specifically mentions that they washed their robes white in the blood of the lamb, meaning that they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. these are people that have cleansed their worship to god. they are not hypocrites.

This is why people automatically assume the great multitude are a different group from the 144,000, when no such contrast is present in the scripture, because it scares them to think about what Christ said....

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Surely not, right, there must be more than 144,000 called during this age? Think again, Jesus wasn't lying.

problem is, jesus wasnt stating a number for a reason. salvation is not predestined. yes the 144000 are numbered but that is because they have a specific job, like the an exact number of positions available with a company. whereas the earthly class do not have a limit.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
The whole passage is about those who are sealed. Why would it even mention this sealing if it had nothing to do with the group discussed, a group John views directly AFTER HEARING the number of those who are sealed? It does not mention any contrast, suggesting they are separate groups.

there is nothing to specify that the ENTIRE passage is about those being sealed.

It is talking of the sealing and then says after that there stood a great multitude. There is nothing to say that it is not about the same group.

and there is several contrasts.

in verse 4 for example. the 144,000 are said to be taken out of the tribes of isreal whereas the great multitude is taken out of every tribe tongue and nation.

and Israel is now a spritual, since even the gentiles are grafted into in.

now i understand chapter 14 does say that the 144,000 were brought from the earth and that they too come from every tribe and tongue and nation and people, however chapter 7 specifically contrasts this point.

Chapter 7 does not contrast this point.

the 144,000 make up a spiritual isreal, the multitude do not.

verse 9 says the multitude is standing before the lamb. ch 14 verse 1 says the 144,000 are standing "with" the lamb.

The sealing takes place before the return of Christ, that is why at this time they are before the lamb. The verse in chapter 14 is much later, that is why the are WITH the lamb.

7 verse 4, 144000 numbered, multitude unnumbered.

The verse says the number is told to john, john then says later that no man could number the multitude, but most seem to forget, as I have said over and over, that John doesn't number the 144,000. The no man could number is simply and expression referring to the vastness of the group. Obviously, even if the multitude were not the 144,000, they would still be a finite number, wouldn't they, and therefore, if given enough time, yes, a man could number them.

verse 13 specifically talks about the identity of this great multitude saying that they come out of this great tribulation. john identifies himself with the 144000 who rule with jesus, john saw no great tribulation. its talking about a separate group.

It does not say they came out of "this" great tribulation. John did see tribulation of you understand what this is talking about. Every true Christian faces tribulation, even if only within himself. We must fight our own carnal nature. Notice what Paul said to even the disciples of his time...

ACTS 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

What did Jesus say?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

And if you think John didn't suffer tribulation, this from the very mouth of John....

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

the 144000 are also depicted as the bride of christ. ch 21 vrse 2 describes this bride as a new jerusalem. what does the great multitude have to do with this bride/city/144000? ch 22 talks about a river flowing from the city curing the nations. which nations? ch 7 vs 17 talks about the great multitude being lead to waters of life. if the 144000 and the GM are the same then why would jesus use them to cure themselves?

You are simply looking at it that way because you assume the great multitude mentioned is not part of the 144,000.

In hebrews, paul says that the law was a shadow of things to come. so what was the arrangement of the law in moses' time? wasnt there a priestly class that asked for forgiveness on behalf of the nation?(lev 4:13-21) the whole nation wasnt priests, only the levites where. 2 separate groups.
the 144000 are this "priestly" class (rev 1:6)

Exactly, they will be priests and and Kings on the earth with Christ, ruling over those who come through the tribulation.

the great multitude and those resurrected are the ones who benefit from these "waters of life"(rev 22), the "other sheep" (john 10:16)

You are talking about events that happen after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

simply saying its the same group because first he "hears" the number and then he "sees" the multitude leaves out all the other information packed into the verses.

All “the other information” elsewhere you have is simply read that way because you believe these are two separate groups, and you are identifying them with others mentioned. The simple fact is, people read two groups into that passage, because they forget that John does not count the 144,000, he simply says that no man could number them as an expression. I’m sure you would agree, that given enough time, anyone could in fact count the great multitude, couldn’t they!  Once again, it is simply an expression.

i agree, alot of people dont do things the way that they should. i also agree that those who find the narrow path will be alot less than those who find the broad path. however the scripture is not limiting salvation to 144000, nor is it prophesying that the total will be 144000. the 144000 are a specific group with a specific job. it is through their priesthood with jesus as high priest that mankind will be able to come close to god again.

I did not mean that only 144,00 would be saved, they are simply the firstfruits, of this age, pictured in the meaning of the day of Pentecost, which celebrated the early, smaller harvest, Just as they are called in Revelation 14:4. Scripture mentions a second resurrection, and a second death, but to die twice, you have to have lived twice, right? There are also other events mentioned after the 1000 year reign of Christ, such as the Gog/Magog war etc when Satan is once again released. This age is when the majority of mankind will be saved.

its incredible. believe what you want to believe.

its like all you did was take the scriptures and say "it doesnt apply that way"

you simply ignored the contrast, you ignore the fact that the century congregation shared in this "heavenly calling". you ignore the fact that the mosaic law even mirrored what is happening today.

read the exodus. who came out of egypt? was it just the levites with moses? or was it all the nation of isreal?

Originally posted by miriam0566
its incredible. believe what you want to believe.

its like all you did was take the scriptures and say "it doesnt apply that way"

you simply ignored the contrast, you ignore the fact that the century congregation shared in this "heavenly calling". you ignore the fact that the mosaic law even mirrored what is happening today.

read the exodus. who came out of egypt? was it just the levites with moses? or was it all the nation of isreal?

exactly how did I do that? You are obviously misunderstanding something I said.

There is a smaller first harvest, the first fruits (exactly what the 144,000 are called), pictured by the Holy day of Pentecost (feast of first fruits), there are two main resurrections mentioned in the book of revelation.The first resurrection are those who become priests and kings with Christ ruling for 1000 years, and then there is the second resurrection, the main harvest.

The title of this thread is called "only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven", and even that is false, since no Christians go to heaven, according to scripture, except Christ himself, who will return at the first resurrection and rule with those who take part in this first resurrection (the first fruits, which is what the 144,000 are called).

It is you who is throwing away scriptures and taking things out of context.
Did the whole planet come out of Egypt (symbolic of sin) or only Israel? Also, the levites were given their role AFTER coming out of Egypt.

If I am reading you correctly, you seem to think that a vast number of people take part in the first resurrection to immortality , and only 144,000 of them are kings and preists?If that is the case, then everyone on Earth for the 1000 year reign of Christ will be immortal (since those in the first resurrection are no longer subject to death), is that correct? Then why are there prophecies saying that after the return of Christ, if there be some that do no not observe the feast of Tabernacles, they will be plagued. How do you plague someone that is immortal?

Read this verse....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those who reign with Christ are the ones, and the only ones, who take part in the first resurrection, the first fruits, and who are called the first fruits?

REVELATION 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Those who are ruled over by Christ and his 144,000 saints, are simply those who repented and lived on through the end time tribulation. The first resurrection (first fruits) is only of 144,000, the rest live not until after the 1000 years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So, again, tell me now who this great multitude is, those mentioned directly after the sealing.

Originally posted by doctorex
exactly how did I do that? You are obviously misunderstanding something I said.

certainly a good possibility.

this is a deep subject that has alot of facets. by facets i mean that it touches on other aspects of doctrine that if misinterpreted, could confuse things.

forgive please if i ramble. im going to be quoting alot of scriptures but i have to show you the foundation of my beliefs before i can show you why i built the house the way i did. (if that makes sense)

the first thing i want to address is this...

The title of this thread is called "only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven", and even that is false, since no Christians go to heaven, according to scripture, except Christ himself, who will return at the first resurrection and rule with those who take part in this first resurrection (the first fruits, which is what the 144,000 are called).

i think i know which scripture you are talking about it... correct me if im wrong...

john 3:[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

at this point im not going to say your completely wrong, however, i do want to note that the passage is talking in past tense. this means that up to the point that jesus was saying this, its crystal clear, noone has (past tense) ascended to heaven.

i firmly believe that the soul is NOT immortal. (ezekial 18:4, 20)

i also believe that the dead are nonexistant. (eccl 9:5,10)

so this scripture would infact be in harmony with that. it also makes sense that mankind would need a ransom. and it makes sense why there is to be a ¨resurrection¨, after all, why would you need a resurrection if you are immortal?

so up to this point jesus is 100% clear. NOONE has ascended to heaven yet. but, and this is the bit you POSSIBLY could be wrong about, is that the scripture doesnt mention anything about the future. this is a main point we disagree on.

is there any scriptural references that might suggest that christians will be going to heaven in the future? well there are tons of scriptures that talk about entering into the kingdom of heaven, but admittedly its not necessarily talking about actually going into heaven, but rather being under its rule. however...

john 144:[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

the scripture is talking clearly about preparing a place in his ¨father´s house¨ which jesus did in fact go to when he died. the apostles agreed with this concept of joining christ in heaven.

1 cor 15:[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

contrasting jesus´ transition to their own

1 cor 5:[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

again, referencing god´s house in heaven

eph 2:[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

hebrews 3:[1] Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

hebrews 11:[16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

hebrews 12:[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

1 peter 1:[4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

phil 3:[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

so clearly, the first early congregations entertained a ¨heavenly calling¨. this fact raises some obvious questions like: when do people get allowed into heaven? is it limited? what do you do in heaven?

the first thing is usually overlooked detail that occurred during jesus´ death.

Matt.27:[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mark.15:[38] And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Luke.23:[45] And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

sounds like a silly detail, but it was actually very significant. the veil was a cloth that separated the holy and most holy compartments of the temple. it symbolized a separation of man from god. since adam sinned, man has been deserving of death due to our unholiness. however, jesus paid the ransom. this in turn legally allowed us to return to go through jesus´ sacrifice. hebrews expands on this abit...

heb 10:[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;

the most holy compartment was symbolic, an image if you will, for the very presence of god. by jesus dying, imperfect humans were now legally able to be ¨sanctified¨ or declared holy.

this however this doesnt mean that ¨zap¨ off we go to heaven. our flesh is abit of a problem.

1 cor 15:[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

physical bodies cant go with you. this is where the resurrection comes in. in order to go to heaven one MUST die. this ties in with having a mortal soul (ezekial). the soul and the body are not separate like some believe. however, god can resurrect you with a different body. a spirit body if you will

1 cor 15:[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
[41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

here´s another interesting thing to note, those who are resurrected with ¨incorruptable¨ bodies are also given immortality....

1 cor 15:[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

so not only are those raised in the first resurrection going to heaven, but they are able to be in the very presence of god, along with incorruptibility and immortality.

we already mentioned that jesus had to die BEFORE people could ascend to heaven since his body was the veil to the most holy. however does this mean that members of the first century congregation were raised instantly after they died? 1 cor 15 goes on...

1 cor 15:[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

vrse 50 makes it clear that we have to die. but verse 51 says that not all shall sleep. jesus when visiting lazarus told his disciples that lazarus was sleeping. so likely some would have to wait ¨sleeping¨ in death BEFORE being raised up. but 51 and 52 say that not all will. some will die and be raised up ¨in the twinkling of an eye¨ or instantaneously. what does this mean?

1 cor 15:[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

john 14:[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1 thess 4:[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


¨at his coming¨. ¨I will come again¨. this implies that the ¨firstfruits¨ are beginning to be gathered at jesus´ coming. this would make sense of 1 cor 15. if the first century christians had a ¨heavenly calling¨, then they would ¨sleep¨until jesus comes. however those who have the ¨heavenly calling¨ after jesus arrives would not sleep. but rather would be resurrected instantly at the time of their death.

so this calling to heaven would span from after jesus´ death to sometime unknown in the future. and the resurrection of this calling would start with the coming of christ, and end sometimes in the future when they are ¨sealed¨

the first resurrection is a resurrection to heaven. whose who have this ¨heavenly calling¨ are given spiritual bodies that are incorruptible and immortal. these are the ones who serve as priests in heaven

1 pet 2: 7] Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
[8] And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

so now we have revelations. it talks about 144,000 reigning as kings and priests. it mentions that they are bought from the earth. you quoted rev 14:3 that mentions them as the firstfruits. It says that they are ¨with christ¨ who is ¨before¨ the throne of god. is obviously has to be heaven.

this is the point. these die and are resurrected to heaven. they rule from heaven, they perform their priestly service in heaven. they cannot die and be given fleshly bodies because they are immortal. they are spirit, just as jesus is (1 peter 3:18).

this brings us to the second point i think we also disagree with. i do not believe that jesus´ return means that he returns in flesh.

jesus mentions...

matt 24:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

matt 25:[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

luke 21:[26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
[27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
[28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

the angels are with him who are spirit creatures. since the 144,000 rule from heaven, it is likely jesus´throne also is in heaven.

ok, all this having been said. there are several reasons i do not believe the great multitude are the same group as the 144,000. this besides the reasons i mentioned before.

- not all the 144,000 ¨go through¨ the great tribulation. infact the major dont since their numbers have stretched literally thousands of years. so this great multitude cant be the same as the 144,000 since only a small percentage of this 144,000 would be alive during the great tribulation.

- going through the great tribulation implies surviving, not dying, and i noted earlier that you cannot accept the heavenly calling without first dying.

So, again, tell me now who this great multitude is, those mentioned directly after the sealing.

well the chapter points out that the great multitude washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. so likely these would be those who put faith in christ, cleaned up themselves and tried to live their life according to christ´commandments but however do not have a heavenly calling. these ones survive (not die) the great tribulation. they are ruled by christ and the 144,000 from heaven. these are uncountable for 2 reasons. 1 - their numbers are not limited unlike the 144,000. and 2 - there is alot of them, however not enough to not be called ¨a few¨ mentioned on the cramped road.

The first resurrection (first fruits) is only of 144,000, the rest live not until after the 1000 years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

the second resurrection can also be called the resurrection of the ¨just and unjust¨ (acts 24:15)

the whole point of this resurrection is to give them all an opportunity to return to god. hebrews 11 refers to faithful people who died long before christ. verses 39 and 40 suggests that they would be ¨made perfect¨ after those with a heavenly calling

39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

this IS the point of the resurrection. to apply to those who want it the opportunity to return to god and be brought back to perfection.

so when does this exactly occur? chapter 20 of rev is abit confusing about this, but there is some logical reasoning you can follow.

in chapter 19 armageddon happens. verse 20 starts with satan being thrown into the pit. it can be logically said that this is the beginning of the thousand year reign. verse 7 talks about the thousand years ending satan being let loose. it says he deceives the nations again and leads them to war. however he is then thrown into the lake of fire or destroyed.

then verse 12 mentions the dead being judged. this logically would be the second resurrection. however, does it happen after or during the thousand year reign? its possible during. why? well because 15 says that those who are judged to be lacking are thrown into the lake of fire. remember that satan decieves ¨nations¨ after being let loose. cross reference that with

1 cor 15:[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

after christ finishes by putting death to an end, he hands the kingdom back to his father. meaning all that is left of mankind is made perfected and has been fully tested as to obedience. satan has been destroyed and death even is destroyed. this suggests that the second resurrection occurs during the thousand year reign, not after.

if that is the case then why does verse 5 of 20 say after? well there are lots of ways a person can be alive (eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,). one such way is being raised to perfection. during the thousand year reign, people, through obedience, will slowly obtain perfection.

the scripture could mean that mankind as a whole is not completely perfected until the thousand years is finished.

Originally posted by miriam0566

is there any scriptural references that might suggest that christians will be going to heaven in the future? well there are tons of scriptures that talk about entering into the kingdom of heaven, but admittedly its not necessarily talking about actually going into heaven, but rather being under its rule. however...

john 144:[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

the scripture is talking clearly about preparing a place in his ¨father´s house¨ which jesus did in fact go to when he died. the apostles agreed with this concept of joining christ in heaven.

No, it is not clearly talking about that at all, that is simply how it is translated in English, to give that impression. This has to be taken in context. The word translated as "mansions" is the exact same word used later in John 14 (verse 23), but there it is translated in English as "abode" (a place of dwelling), now look at that passage....

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Now read verse 2 and 3 again, but the with the word mansions translated instead as abodes....

2 In my Father's house are many abodes: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus is talking about God dwelling in us, through Christ, in many abodes (Christians), and us in turn in him, not us dwelling in mansions in heaven. It is the exact same John is talking about in 1John.

1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 cor 15:[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

contrasting jesus´ transition to their own

Simply talking of resurrection to spiritual immortality, just like Jesus, it does not say we go to heaven.

1 cor 5:[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

again, referencing god´s house in heaven

eph 2:[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

you have to understand what this house is, as in him dwelling in us, and us in turn dwelling in him.

hebrews 3:[1] Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

who calls people into truth?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

about the heaven Jerusalem....


Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

so clearly, the first early congregations entertained a ¨heavenly calling¨. this fact raises some obvious questions like: when do people get allowed into heaven? is it limited? what do you do in heaven?

You are asuming they are called to heaven, but that is not true, they are called by God into the truth, who is in heaven...

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Also you have the whole veil thing wrong. Adam was not in heaven when he sinned, and got kicked out. He was on Earth. The high priest was only allowed into the holiest of hollies on the day of atonement, to symbolically atone Israel for their sins. Christ sacrifice took away the veil, permanently, allowing us all to spiritually go before God and confess our our sins, and since the penalty has been paid by Christ, we can be forgiven. It is not about opening up an entrance to heaven excepts for that reason. Read Hebrews 9:7-15

Originally posted by miriam0566
1 cor 15:[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

john 14:[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1 thess 4:[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


¨at his coming¨. ¨I will come again¨. this implies that the ¨firstfruits¨ are beginning to be gathered at jesus´ coming. this would make sense of 1 cor 15. if the first century christians had a ¨heavenly calling¨, then they would ¨sleep¨until jesus comes. however those who have the ¨heavenly calling¨ after jesus arrives would not sleep. but rather would be resurrected instantly at the time of their death.

No, everyone dies, except for those who are sealed and still alive at Christ's return. Those in sealed Christ who have died in the previous 2000 years are resurected but those who are still alive, are simply changed...

51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It is the same thing Christ is talking about when he was talking about the end times and said there will be some there will not taste of death at his return...

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

so this calling to heaven would span from after jesus´ death to sometime unknown in the future. and the resurrection of this calling would start with the coming of christ, and end sometimes in the future when they are ¨sealed¨

the first resurrection is a resurrection to heaven. whose who have this ¨heavenly calling¨ are given spiritual bodies that are incorruptible and immortal. these are the ones who serve as priests in heaven

Again, the calling is from heaven, from God, called by God, not to heaven. The first resurection does not take place until the last trump, which is the 7th trumpet of the seventh seal, the return of Christ. Peter even said that King David was still in the grave, after the death of Christ (acts 2), and God called David a man after his own heart.

so now we have revelations. it talks about 144,000 reigning as kings and priests. it mentions that they are bought from the earth. you quoted rev 14:3 that mentions them as the firstfruits. It says that they are ¨with christ¨ who is ¨before¨ the throne of god. is obviously has to be heaven.

But the first resurrection takes place at the return of Christ, doesn't it, and where does Christ return to? Earth.

this is the point. these die and are resurrected to heaven. they rule from heaven, they perform their priestly service in heaven. they cannot die and be given fleshly bodies because they are immortal. they are spirit, just as jesus is (1 peter 3:18).

There is nothing that says they rule from Heaven.

this brings us to the second point i think we also disagree with. i do not believe that jesus´ return means that he returns in flesh.

I never said that Jesus returns in the flesh, he is already spirit, though he can manifest himself as flesh, just as he did to the Apostles after his death.

Originally posted by miriam0566
ok, all this having been said. there are several reasons i do not believe the great multitude are the same group as the 144,000. this besides the reasons i mentioned before.

- not all the 144,000 ¨go through¨ the great tribulation. infact the major dont since their numbers have stretched literally thousands of years. so this great multitude cant be the same as the 144,000 since only a small percentage of this 144,000 would be alive during the great tribulation.

- going through the great tribulation implies surviving, not dying, and i noted earlier that you cannot accept the heavenly calling without first dying.

You are asuming that all tribulation is the last tribulation, but as I showed, even the apostles went through tribulatiom, they said it themselves. Also, again, you are wrong that to accept the calling you have to die. The calling is about being called out of the world, into truth, the word church (ekklesia) itself means called-out-ones. THe apsostles called themsleves "called", they even refered to the church as called...

1Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be saints], with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

So, again, tell me now who this great multitude is, those mentioned directly after the sealing.

well the chapter points out that the great multitude washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. so likely these would be those who put faith in christ, cleaned up themselves and tried to live their life according to christ´commandments but however do not have a heavenly calling.

Sorry, but you are wrong, they do have a heavenly calling, you just don't understand what that is.

39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

this IS the point of the resurrection. to apply to those who want it the opportunity to return to god and be brought back to perfection.

so when does this exactly occur? chapter 20 of rev is abit confusing about this, but there is some logical reasoning you can follow.

in chapter 19 armageddon happens. verse 20 starts with satan being thrown into the pit. it can be logically said that this is the beginning of the thousand year reign. verse 7 talks about the thousand years ending satan being let loose. it says he deceives the nations again and leads them to war. however he is then thrown into the lake of fire or destroyed.

then verse 12 mentions the dead being judged. this logically would be the second resurrection. however, does it happen after or during the thousand year reign? its possible during. why? well because 15 says that those who are judged to be lacking are thrown into the lake of fire. remember that satan decieves ¨nations¨ after being let loose. cross reference that with

1 cor 15:[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The second resurrection is clearly after the 1000 year reign, since while talking about the first resurecction it says...

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The second resurection takes place, people live another life, satan is also released, the gog/magog event takes place, and then then judgement.

[edit on 9/12/08 by doctorex]

reply to post by miriam0566


I enjoy your posts and commentary on christianity. You are a good person. I can sense it from your language. That being said, aside from his belief in Ron Weinland being one of the last two witnesses, DoctorX is on point with the scripture doctrine. So he believes the Church of God rooted from Herbert W. Armstrong but people need to understand that Armstrong was simply a tool in God's plan of calling B.S. on false teachings. It seems strange and unnecessary for certain things they do, but it all has biblical meaning and prophetic value such as the celebration of the Holy Days. I think my main disagreement with you, miriam, is that you believe some go to heaven and I don't. Earth was made for mankind and it will remain the place for mankind. Your references to heaven with mansions, New Jerusalem, etc. all refer to the fact that they are made in heaven by God but they befall upon earth. I think DoctorX explained the Marriage of the Lamb and the Holy City in Rev. 21. There is no hard evidence that man (other than Christ) has entered, enters, or will enter heaven. If you show me that, I will gladly call you right and me wrong. The fact is the 144,000 are the sealed who become priests in the Kingdom of God on earth. Think about it. Jesus rules earth in New Jerusalem. Don't you think He needs governors and priests to look out for the vast land mass? Also each of the 12 apostles are said to each rule one of the 12 tribes of Israel which implies that the lost 10 tribes are among us today. I for one believe in British-Israelism due to the link between the Northern Kingdom's exile and the sudden appearance of the Scythians where Israel was exiled to. Link the Scythians with their migration to Celtic country and it's easy to link Israel (north tribes) with Britain and northwest Europe..... the British Empire spreading the birthright of Joseph to America. Read Gen 48-49. Specifically the Multitude of Nations vs. One Great Nation. Anyways, I'm just rambling on. Just consider the literal word of God in your studies of heaven and man's part (or lack thereof) in it. Amen and God Bless.

ok, let me explain this in a different way...

rev 4:[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
[2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

john is given a vision where is his shown heaven. verse 2 says that he was ¨in spirit¨.

since humans cannot see spiritual things, its hard to ¨translate¨ things in heaven to a human mind. hence alot of the book of revelations is symbolic. john is given visions he can understand.

my point is, what john is seeing is in heaven, not some representation of earthly things

[3] And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

latter part of verse 2 and verse 3 show us GOD. this is the almighty. we know hes in heaven (1 kings 8:42). we know he´s a spirit (john 4:24)

[4] And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

who are these 24 elders? they are before god in heaven right? or maybe they are on earth?

rev 5:[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

so a question is raised, john who is ¨in heaven¨ is asked by one of the 24 elders why he is crying. the 24 elders have crowns, dressed in white and are in heaven before the throne. this IS the most holy part of heaven. if the tabernacle was infact a forshadow, this area would be accesible only by the priesthood.

[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

so jesus is depicted as a slaughtered lamb with seven eyes. of course its symbolic. jesus was the sacrifice for all minkind. seven eyes could imply that he has perfect discernment, able to see anything.

but as he opens the scroll, notice what the 24 elders start singing. they start to praise god.

¨and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;¨-angels cannot fall into this catergory since they were not born on earth. we are talking about people who were from earth now sitting on thrones before god himself in heaven.

i understand what you are saying, but this scripture very simply shows that some do go to heaven.



now, who are these 24 elders? is 24 literal or symbolic?

verse 10 gives us a clue, ¨hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth¨

before you jump on ¨on the earth¨, please understand that επι, or ¨on¨ can mean several things

epi ep-ee': meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest

where else do we find ¨kings and priests¨? well in rev 1:6. john is writing the congregations and uses ¨us¨ to refer to himself and the congregation.

rev 20:6 says it, but in a different way,

rev 20:[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

but now we understand this to be the 144,000 right? so which is it? the 24 elders, or the 144,000?

a possible thoery is that it is both.

the 24 elders and the 144,000 both are bought from the earth with christ´s blood, both are kings and priests. both are with christ.

but....

rev 14:[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

the 144.000 are singing to the elders...

2 possibilities for this.

1- we know that 1 cor 15 shows us that some will sleep and some wont. this leaves the possibility that some are in heaven while some are on earth. 144,000 could respresent the literal number of the complete group while the 24 elders is symbolic of those of that group who have died and been resurrected to heaven while some still remain on earth.

2- is that the 24 elders could be a sub group of the 144,000. almost like a heiriachy. possibley the 12 apostles along with 12 other selected to head the groups below them.

either way. these 24 elders were bought from the earth and are depicted before the very thrown of god in heaven.

baseing a theory on john 3:13 (which is in past tense) sounds alittle like forceing the square peg in the round hole

reply to post by Locoman8

DoctorX is on point with the scripture doctrine.

No, Locoman8, he is not "on point". His "doctrine" didn't even exist until HWA.

Emphasis mine:

So he believes the Church of God rooted from Herbert W. Armstrong...

This (above) is true.

HOWEVER, some of Doctorex's current arguments no longer reflect the current "Church of God":

www.wcg.org...

Doctorex is representing the "COG-PKG". This is a "spin-off" of the Church of God and I was actually quite surprised by their (not Ronald Weinland's) current confessions. Some of them are much closer to what I believe the Bible says (please see the above links). One (of them) at least recognizes that Romans 14 isn't about fasting!

The Church of God official website is no friend to what Doctorex is saying.

www.wcg.org...