Challenge Match: Frankidealist35 vs OZWeatherman: Who Makes the Wind Blow?

page: 1
3

log in

join

posted on Sep, 26 2008 @ 04:32 PM
link   
The topic for this debate is "Hurricanes Can Be Intentionally Created By Human Manipulated Weather Modification Programs."

Frankidealist35 will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
OZWeatherman will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

There is a 10,000 character limit per post.

Any character count in excess of 10,000 will be deleted prior to the judging process.

Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post. Each individual post may contain up to 10 sentences of external source material, totaled from all external sources.

Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

This Is The Time Limit Policy:
Time Limits have been Extended for this Debate at the Request of the Participants.

Each debate must post within 48 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

Each debater is entitled to one extension of 24 hours. The request should be posted in this thread and is automatically granted- the 24 hour extension begins at the expiration of the previous deadline, not at the time of the extension request.

In the unlikely event that tardiness results in simultaneous posting by both debaters, the late post will be deleted unless it appears in its proper order in the thread.

Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.



[edit on 9/26/2008 by semperfortis]




posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 08:54 PM
link   
I'm going to be arguing the pro-side that hurricanes can be created through weather manipulation projects.

HAARP was a program that was part of the Starwars program that was a series of defense programs for the Cold War. Starwars may have lost all of its fundings but some of the programs still received funding. HAARP is one of those programs. HAARP is a program that is designed to research the ionosphere. But hey-- look who is behind it-- the air force and the navy. That lets us wonder what application it could serve. It is clear that the military wants to see if they can create a program that they can manipulate and control processes in the ionosphere.

The HAARP weapons program

Here is a website that tells about the ionosphere that I will be referencing to throughout this debate for scientific evidence to back up my claims.
www.windows.ucar.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">About the Ionosphere

Here are some basic facts from the ionosphere... I've picked out the ones that I think relate to the topic here that I want to show in the first post... I've omitted some due to the space that I have for this opening post but you can find the rest on the link...


Basic Facts About the Ionosphere

* Invisible layers of ions and electrons are suspended in the Earth's atmosphere above about 60 kilometers in altitude.
* The main source of these layers is the Sun's ultraviolet light which ionizes atoms and molecules in the Earth's upper atmosphere. During this process, called photoionization, an electron is knocked free from a neutral atmospheric particle, which then becomes an ion.
* Because the Sun's light is responsible for most of the ionization, the ionosphere reaches maximum densities just after local noon.


I want to here to link to HAARP's website now that I've told about the groups behind HAARP so you can see what potentially what hidden motives they might have with their program.

HAARP's URL

On the first website I listed I found out that there were competing weather modification programs by the Soviet Union at the time their regime was already in place. I think it's fairly obvious with the information that we have that because the Soviets already claimed to have weather modification technology that the US government felt they were behind so they wanted to create a program similar to theirs. I should also note here that there have been several times where programs that one would not suspect the government to fund were funded because other programs existed within the Soviet government... like the psychic spy programs... that were funded because the US government didn't want to be behind them so it isn't too hard to understand that HAARP was created and still is as a research program with potential military application much like those other programs in the US government.

There have been other attempts at weather modification in the past. Earlier attempts at weather modification like cloud seeding have failed because no one could see the results About cloud seeding. They also were done by regular scientists so they lacked government funding.


Cloud seeding got its start in 1946 when Dr. Vincent J. Schaefer, working at the General Electric Laboratory in New York, was involved with research to create artificial clouds in a chilled chamber. During one experiment, Schaefer thought the chamber was too warm and placed dry ice inside to cool it. Water vapor in the chamber formed a cloud around the dry ice.


No conclusive evidence was found for cloud seeding.

There are possible methods for weather modification. I found this URL that talked about weather modification as a weapons applicationwww.sweetliberty.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">possible military applications for weather modification technology

From the article...

Computer models obviously focused on the ionosphere, which acts as a filter for the solar radiations to reach the earth. If one can manipulate and control the filter, it becomes a potential source of massive weather modification. That is what the computer simulation models found. Controlling the ionosphere potentially allows weather control.


Now that we have established that weather modification is indeed possible and has been researched for several years and has military applications I do believe that hurricanes can be created through the modification of different areas of the ionosphere. I think if they send a large amount of energy large to the ionosphere large enough to have a permanent effect on it they could change a weather pattern and create winds powerful enough to move a hurricane and if they sent the beam in an area with the right conditions for a hurricane I believe that one could be created.

Now, my first question is... why would the US government the navy and the air force want to have the HAARP program in the first place and why would they expect us to pay for it with our tax dollars?

[edit on 10/4/2008 by semperfortis]



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 08:00 PM
link   
Before I begin I would just like to thank my opponent Frankidealist35 for accepting my challenge and also thanks to MemoryShock and Semperfortis for their assistance and making this debate possible.

Just to reiterate, I will be arguing that "Hurricanes Can Not Be Intentionally Created By Human Manipulated Weather Modification Programs"

So what is weather modification?

Wikipedia defines weather modification as the following:


Weather control is the act of manipulating or altering certain aspects of the environment to produce desirable changes in weather.


Produce desirable changes? Desirable is defined by dictionary.com as, "worth having or wanting; pleasing, excellent or fine".

Question One
Now a question to my opponent.

Do you regard hurricanes, as a desirable form of weather and why?

My points
My opponent talks about HAARP and the star wars defense system. A little bit later on we I will discuss the purpose of HAARP and why it can't be attributed to creating or even modifying the mechanisms and creation of Hurricane.

I will also address the current forms of and success rates of weather modification such as cloud seeding, cloud modification and atmospheric water management.

Another point I will bring up is what meteorological effects create a hurricane, as well as weather patterns and scientific forces that affect the track and locations of where these circular storms occur.

Rebuttal

Now, my first question is... why would the US government the navy and the air force want to have the HAARP program in the first place and why would they expect us to pay for it with our tax dollars?


First, I do not deny that HAARP cost so much money. The communications and satellite industry are huge, and costly. So using so much money from tax payers, ultimately goes back into the public forum.

Secondly

According to the HAARP website the purpose of the program is much different to what you claim:


HAARP is a scientific endeavor aimed at studying the properties and behavior of the ionosphere, with particular emphasis on being able to understand and use it to enhance communications and surveillance systems for both civilian and defense purposes.


So HAARP is not just a military run operation. In fact, on further investigation of HAARP, there are several universities playing an integral part in the program. Universities were responsible for the initial design, program objectives, chocie of contracters, equipment development and research campaigns. The universities (taken from the HAARP website) involved are as follows:


University of Alaska, The Leland Stanford University, Penn State University (ARL), Boston College, Dartmouth University, Cornell University, University of Maryland, University of Massachusetts, MIT, Polytechnic University, UCLA, Clemson University and the University of Tulsa


The website also describes that the majority of attendants at ionopsheric research workshops are university students and professors. It doesnt seem as though defense or top secret government organisations are running the show up there in Alaska. Another point of interest would is the following extract, also taken from the HAARP website


Is HAARP a classified project?

HAARP is not classified. There are no classified documents pertaining to HAARP. The Environmental Impact Process (EIP) documents have always been, are now, and will always be completely descriptive of the program in its entirety. The EIP documents are a matter of public record.


Second question
If military and government had alterior motives for HAARP's equipment, why would they make information available to the public? And if it was so secret, why would they hold a community outreach program?

Third question
Do you have proof that HAARP is part of the star wars defense system?

Back to you Frankidealist35

Sources
www.haarp.alaska.edu...

www.weathermodification.org...



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 09:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Before I begin I would just like to thank my opponent Frankidealist35 for accepting my challenge and also thanks to MemoryShock and Semperfortis for their assistance and making this debate possible.

Just to reiterate, I will be arguing that "Hurricanes Can Not Be Intentionally Created By Human Manipulated Weather Modification Programs"

So what is weather modification?

Wikipedia defines weather modification as the following:


Weather control is the act of manipulating or altering certain aspects of the environment to produce desirable changes in weather.


Produce desirable changes? Desirable is defined by dictionary.com as, "worth having or wanting; pleasing, excellent or fine".

Desirable changes could also be construed to mean from a military perspective-- the controlling of Earth’s environment and global climate so we can control the weather and destabilize foreign governments.

What is desirable really anyways?

Question One
Now a question to my opponent.

Do you regard hurricanes, as a desirable form of weather and why?
If I was in the military I would love to be able to create a hurricane. I would be able to create a weapon wit
My points
My opponent talks about HAARP and the star wars defense system. A little bit later on we I will discuss the purpose of HAARP and why it can't be attributed to creating or even modifying the mechanisms and creation of Hurricane.

I will also address the current forms of and success rates of weather modification such as cloud seeding, cloud modification and atmospheric water management.

Another point I will bring up is what meteorological effects create a hurricane, as well as weather patterns and scientific forces that affect the track and locations of where these circular storms occur.

Rebuttal

Now, my first question is... why would the US government the navy and the air force want to have the HAARP program in the first place and why would they expect us to pay for it with our tax dollars?


First, I do not deny that HAARP cost so much money. The communications and satellite industry are huge, and costly. So using so much money from tax payers, ultimately goes back into the public forum.

Secondly

According to the HAARP website the purpose of the program is much different to what you claim:


HAARP is a scientific endeavor aimed at studying the properties and behavior of the ionosphere, with particular emphasis on being able to understand and use it to enhance communications and surveillance systems for both civilian and defense purposes.


So HAARP is not just a military run operation. In fact, on further investigation of HAARP, there are several universities playing an integral part in the program. Universities were responsible for the initial design, program objectives, chocie of contracters, equipment development and research campaigns. The universities (taken from the HAARP website) involved are as follows:


University of Alaska, The Leland Stanford University, Penn State University (ARL), Boston College, Dartmouth University, Cornell University, University of Maryland, University of Massachusetts, MIT, Polytechnic University, UCLA, Clemson University and the University of Tulsa


The website also describes that the majority of attendants at ionopsheric research workshops are university students and professors. It doesnt seem as though defense or top secret government organisations are running the show up there in Alaska. Another point of interest would is the following extract, also taken from the HAARP website


Is HAARP a classified project?

HAARP is not classified. There are no classified documents pertaining to HAARP. The Environmental Impact Process (EIP) documents have always been, are now, and will always be completely descriptive of the program in its entirety. The EIP documents are a matter of public record.

You’re quite wrong on that.




A drive by Clifford Stone on the X-Files-esque uber-site Above Top Secret to use the Freedom of Information Act to turn up UFO-related documents has led to the release of a fascinating report, HAARP: Research and Applications. It's from the Air Force Research Laboratory and Office of Naval Research, and it lays out the uses the military see for HAARP. Turns out the Pentagon wants some military bang for their buck from the program.

blog.wired.com...

Here is the FOIA document archiving the functions of HAARP which show the potential for military purposes which it can serve:
foia.abovetopsecret.com...


Second question
If military and government had alterior motives for HAARP's equipment, why would they make information available to the public? And if it was so secret, why would they hold a community outreach program?

Over time the US government does some really secretive things which they eventually release documents of which to the public. Cases of these kinds of secrets which have been released to the public are the MK Ultra mind control program… and… recently their disinfo program about UFO’s has surfaced to the public’s eye.

Hey, and also, if you didn’t know this before, I will tell you now, that basically everyone has alterior motives for anything they do. It’s just a simple fact of life.


Third question
Do you have proof that HAARP is part of the star wars defense system?

Why would the government want to research on the ionosphere in the first place? If they managed to find out more about the ionosphere they could control it.

What proof do I have? Logic. It makes sense that this was part of the star wars defense system. The Soviets were engaging in programs like psychic research at one time and our government responded at that time by creating their own research program (see Jim Marr’s book- PSI Spies: The True Story of America's Psychic Warfare Program

My question to my opponent is: Why does the military want to do this?



posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 12:08 AM
link   
It seems my opponent is hell-bent on the fact that HAARP causing very high altitude heating, is the only contributing factor in weather modification.

I will take this oppurtunity to explain how hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons are formed. Before I explain this, I would just like to place emphasis on the historical side of things. It is fact that circular storms have been occuring for hundreds of years, and even millions of years before HAARP was activated. I wont go into every hurricane that has crossed the American coast, causing damage and loss of life, but the below link proves that HAARP is not responsible for hurricane creation

www.nhc.noaa.gov...

So my first question on this post to my opponent is:

Did HAARP cause the 1900 hurricane in Galveston, hurricane Hazel in 1954, etc?

How do Hurricanes and Cyclones Form?
There are a couple of key ingredients needed for tropical storm formation. The first is a large amount of water vapour condensating at high altitudes, the second is solar heating from the sun, which is required to evaporate that water. This is the why hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons, are mainly formed in tropical and sub tropical zones and always over oceans, where there is an abundance of warm water and solar heating of the ocean (see below link).

spaceplace.nasa.gov...

As the condensation occurs, it releases heat. These warm mosit particles of air rise, causing the air close to the ocean to have a low central pressure. As most people with basic meteorology know, when there is an area of low pressure, air rushes into that space in attempt to equalise the pressure, causing an area of high pressure from all directions, causing rotation of the system. As the new air rises, it warms from the ocean, and yet again rises, and the whole process startes again. Also as the warm air rises and subsequently cools, water vapour is released in the form of clouds. Eventually as the storm gathers in more and warm moist air, it spins faster and faster....causing the winds in its interior to increase to phenomenal speeds.

When hurricanes reach the land, where their is lack humid air, they eventually dissipate, although some bad weather may still be observed.

HAARP And Weather
My opponents links are explaining that HAARPs affect on the ionosphere is altering the weather. The major problem with this, is that the worlds weather only occurs in the two lowest section of the atmosphere, the troposphere and the the lowest sections of the stratosphere. The ionosphere is some 70km to 100km higher than the upper reaches where the earths weather occurs.

The frequency of HAARP is so low, that it will not affect the amount of heat reaching the earths surface. The HAARP transmitters only operate at 45% and in a linear (straight line) so that other radiowaves are not affected. So for every 100 Watts of power produced by HAARP, only 45 Watts of radio frequency is produced. This means HAARP is able to produce only a maximum of 3,600 kilowatts of energy in total from its 180 transmitters. Not to mention, it is facing the complete wrong way if it wants to heat something effectively as the sun long wave radiation does.

Rebuttal



A drive by Clifford Stone on the X-Files-esque uber-site Above Top Secret to use the Freedom of Information Act to turn up UFO-related documents has led to the release of a fascinating report, HAARP: Research and Applications. It's from the Air Force Research Laboratory and Office of Naval Research, and it lays out the uses the military see for HAARP. Turns out the Pentagon wants some military bang for their buck from the program.



Here is the FOIA document archiving the functions of HAARP which show the potential for military purposes which it can serve:
foia.abovetopsecret.com...


Maybe my opponent could explain the purpose of this to the forum. Its nineteen pages of techincal data about HAARP that not everyone is able to understand. From what I was able to understand, the actual document described that HAARP uses infrared radiation refelcted of ionospheric particles to communication satellites. It doesn't say anything about the radiowaves from HAARP entering the troposphere like the suns UV rays do. In fact its completely different energy from what the sun is producing.

So that leads me to my second question. How can HAARPs infrared radiation be used for weather modification? We know long wave UV rays for the sun do assist in hurricane creation, but HAARP doesnt use UV radiation.


Why would the government want to research on the ionosphere in the first place? If they managed to find out more about the ionosphere they could control it.


Its clearly stated on HAARPs website of what the purpose of the project is. In case my opponent missed it, here it is again


HAARP stands for The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program. The goal of this program is to further advance our knowledge of the physical and electrical properties of the Earth's ionosphere which can affect our military and civilian communication and navigation systems. The HAARP program operates a world-class ionospheric research facility located in Gakona, Alaska.



What proof do I have? Logic. It makes sense that this was part of the star wars defense system. The Soviets were engaging in programs like psychic research at one time and our government responded at that time by creating their own research program


Correct me if I am wrong, but logic is no substitute for scientific eveidence. So far my opponent has yet to explain in terms that we can understand, of how HAARP has produced/ affected hurricanes.


My question to my opponent is: Why does the military want to do this?


To further understand of how the mechanisms of the ionopshere work, in order to improve satellite systems.

And a third question to my opponent. Can you find any link between HAARPs activation times and hurricane severity?

Source
www.haarp.alaska.edu...



posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 08:35 PM
link   
A method and apparatus for altering at least one selected region which normally exists above the earth's surface. The region is excited by electron cyclotron resonance heating to thereby increase its charged particle density. In one embodiment, circularly polarized electromagnetic radiation is transmitted upward in a direction substantially parallel to and along a field line which extends through the region of plasma to be altered. The radiation is transmitted at a frequency which excites electron cyclotron resonance to heat and accelerate the charged particles. This increase in energy can cause ionization of neutral particles which are then absorbed as part of the region thereby increasing the charged particle density of the region.







Originally posted by OzWeatherman
It seems my opponent is hell-bent on the fact that HAARP causing very high altitude heating, is the only contributing factor in weather modification.

No it’s not the only contributing factor in weather modification. It’s just one of them.


[qipte]I will take this oppurtunity to explain how hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons are formed. Before I explain this, I would just like to place emphasis on the historical side of things. It is fact that circular storms have been occuring for hundreds of years, and even millions of years before HAARP was activated. I wont go into every hurricane that has crossed the American coast, causing damage and loss of life, but the below link proves that HAARP is not responsible for hurricane creation

www.nhc.noaa.gov...
Just because you can explain something doesn’t mean that you can’t create it artificially by a machine. This is taken from HAARP’s patent itself


A method and apparatus for altering at least one selected region which normally exists above the earth's surface. The region is excited by electron cyclotron resonance heating to thereby increase its charged particle density. In one embodiment, circularly polarized electromagnetic radiation is transmitted upward in a direction substantially parallel to and along a field line which extends through the region of plasma to be altered. The radiation is transmitted at a frequency which excites electron cyclotron resonance to heat and accelerate the charged particles.

HAARP didn’t exist then.


How do Hurricanes and Cyclones Form?
There are a couple of key ingredients needed for tropical storm formation. The first is a large amount of water vapour condensating at high altitudes, the second is solar heating from the sun, which is required to evaporate that water. This is the why hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons, are mainly formed in tropical and sub tropical zones and always over oceans, where there is an abundance of warm water and solar heating of the ocean (see below link).

spaceplace.nasa.gov...


Ok, so you know how hurricanes are formed.


HAARP And Weather
My opponents links are explaining that HAARPs affect on the ionosphere is altering the weather. The major problem with this, is that the worlds weather only occurs in the two lowest section of the atmosphere, the troposphere and the the lowest sections of the stratosphere. The ionosphere is some 70km to 100km higher than the upper reaches where the earths weather occurs.



Rebuttal


Maybe my opponent could explain the purpose of this to the forum. Its nineteen pages of techincal data about HAARP that not everyone is able to understand. From what I was able to understand, the actual document described that HAARP uses infrared radiation refelcted of ionospheric particles to communication satellites. It doesn't say anything about the radiowaves from HAARP entering the troposphere like the suns UV rays do. In fact its completely different energy from what the sun is producing.

So that leads me to my second question. How can HAARPs infrared radiation be used for weather modification? We know long wave UV rays for the sun do assist in hurricane creation, but HAARP doesnt use UV radiation.

I just explained that above.




HAARP stands for The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program. The goal of this program is to further advance our knowledge of the physical and electrical properties of the Earth's ionosphere which can affect our military and civilian communication and navigation systems. The HAARP program operates a world-class ionospheric research facility located in Gakona, Alaska.

Ha, it looks like their own patent suggests that they want to do some weather modification of their own. It looks like they’re lying on their website as to what their intentions are.



Correct me if I am wrong, but logic is no substitute for scientific eveidence. So far my opponent has yet to explain in terms that we can understand, of how HAARP has produced/ affected hurricanes.

Maybe I was wrong about HAARP being a starwars weapons program but it still is designed for weather modification. That’s what they are trying to find out how to do with their “research”.


To further understand of how the mechanisms of the ionopshere work, in order to improve satellite systems.

That’s a laugh.


And a third question to my opponent. Can you find any link between HAARPs activation times and hurricane severity?

From HAARP’s patent

Weather modification is possible by, for example, altering upper atmosphere wind patterns or altering solar absorption patterns by constructing one or more plumes of atmospheric particles which will act as a lens or focusing device
. They can modify the winds to speed up the process of hurricanes.


[edit on 10/4/2008 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/4/2008 by semperfortis]



posted on Sep, 30 2008 @ 09:34 AM
link   

A method and apparatus for altering at least one selected region which normally exists above the earth's surface. The region is excited by electron cyclotron resonance heating to thereby increase its charged particle density. In one embodiment, circularly polarized electromagnetic radiation is transmitted upward in a direction substantially parallel to and along a field line which extends through the region of plasma to be altered. The radiation is transmitted at a frequency which excites electron cyclotron resonance to heat and accelerate the charged particles. This increase in energy can cause ionization of neutral particles which are then absorbed as part of the region thereby increasing the charged particle density of the region.


So by stimulating and heating the ionosphere with a magnetic field, you can create hurricanes? I will take this oppurtunity to remind you that the troposphere, where all the Earths weather is created and occurs is approximately 70 to 100km lower than where this is occuring. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the only way to create hurricanes, is to heat the surface of a large body of water (ie the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian oceans). This is why hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons form over warm water, in tropical and subtropical areas.


Originally posted by OzWeatherman
It seems my opponent is hell-bent on the fact that HAARP causing very high altitude heating, is the only contributing factor in weather modification.




No it’s not the only contributing factor in weather modification. It’s just one of them.


So far I see no evidence suggesting it has, or is capable of altering the weather, let alone powerful storm systems, which actually release more energy than HAARP is capable of producing!!!


So my first question on this post to my opponent is:
Did HAARP cause the 1900 hurricane in Galveston, hurricane Hazel in 1954, etc?




HAARP didn’t exist then.


Exactly, so why attirbute only recent hurricanes to HAARP or weather modification. It wasn't needed then, and it isnt needed now. They are a naturally occuring phenomenen.


Also, large regions of the atmosphere could be lifted to an unexpectedly high altitude so that missiles encounter unexpected and unplanned drag forces with resultant destruction or deflection of same. Weather modification is possible by, for example, altering upper atmosphere wind patterns or altering solar absorption patterns by constructing one or more plumes of atmospheric particles which will act as a lens or focusing device


I do not doubt that weather modification has been attempted. But to create a storm system, 7000 kilometers away, in the middle of the ocean, by sufficiently heating tropical water, changing wind patterns from the surface up to the the top of the troposphere (approx 30,000 to 40,000ft), controlling pressure varients over a huge area, its just not possible. To control or create the right conditions for a hurricane to form, you need to change the entire weather patterns of the Atlantic ocean. They are not a local phenomena. They can last for days, decay and then reform, and travel thousands of kilometers, yet we cant even get cloud seeding right.


The World Meteorological Organization has indicated that cloud seeding does not produce positive results in all cases and is dependent on specificity of clouds, wind speed and direction, terrain and other factors.


See, we cant create precipitation locally as there are too many factors to control, so imagine how difficult it would be to control the weather over an area of a few thousand square kilometres!


Maybe I was wrong about HAARP being a starwars weapons program but it still is designed for weather modification. That’s what they are trying to find out how to do with their “research”.


You admit you were wrong about this? This shows your lack of research/ knowledge about how HAARP operates.


To further understand of how the mechanisms of the ionopshere work, in order to improve satellite systems.




That’s a laugh.


Ok, im confused now. You are willing to believe them when they talk about displacement of particles in the atmosphere, but you will not believe the official scope of the project?

Here's my first question for this post. Do you have any proof that the scientists at HAARP are lying about what they say HAARPs purpose is?


From HAARP’s patent

Weather modification is possible by, for example, altering upper atmosphere wind patterns or altering solar absorption patterns by constructing one or more plumes of atmospheric particles which will act as a lens or focusing device




They can modify the winds to speed up the process of hurricanes.


Winds have nothing to do with the creation of hurricanes. Like I explained before, the main mechanisms are heating of a body of water, and subsequent condensation. Another question, can you prove that a century and a half of meteorological studies are incorrect about the creation of hurricanes? Because so far all you have talked about is relfection of particles in the ionosphere.

Also again, this is contradictory. You believe ths, but refuse to believe the official purpose of HAARP?

And, you avoided this question on my last post


And a third question to my opponent. Can you find any link between HAARPs activation times and hurricane severity?


So can you?



posted on Sep, 30 2008 @ 05:33 PM
link   

So by stimulating and heating the ionosphere with a magnetic field, you can create hurricanes? I will take this oppurtunity to remind you that the troposphere, where all the Earths weather is created and occurs is approximately 70 to 100km lower than where this is occuring. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the only way to create hurricanes, is to heat the surface of a large body of water (ie the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian oceans). This is why hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons form over warm water, in tropical and subtropical areas.

Perturbations in the ionosphere can have a significant effect on the weather. If they could use powerful technology for affecting the ionosphere and the magnetosphere they could impact weather on a global scale, maybe, causing natural disasters like hurricanes.


So far I see no evidence suggesting it has, or is capable of altering the weather, let alone powerful storm systems, which actually release more energy than HAARP is capable of producing!!!



U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force combined efforts building the facility. Open information sources indicate that the facility is used for causing active influence on the earth's ionosphere and magnetosphere.

english.pravda.ru...



HAARP didn’t exist then.


Exactly, so why attirbute only recent hurricanes to HAARP or weather modification. It wasn't needed then, and it isnt needed now. They are a naturally occuring phenomenen.
It doesn’t matter that they’re a naturally occurring phenomenon. They can still be manipulated. One could easily make them more powerful.


I do not doubt that weather modification has been attempted. But to create a storm system, 7000 kilometers away, in the middle of the ocean, by sufficiently heating tropical water, changing wind patterns from the surface up to the the top of the troposphere (approx 30,000 to 40,000ft), controlling pressure varients over a huge area, its just not possible. To control or create the right conditions for a hurricane to form, you need to change the entire weather patterns of the Atlantic ocean. They are not a local phenomena. They can last for days, decay and then reform, and travel thousands of kilometers, yet we cant even get cloud seeding right.

Regions of the magnetosphere could be altered to allow more solar rays from the sun to come in so the water would get hotter quicker. Altering regions of the magnetosphere could change our atmosphere and may potentially quicken the process of forming different hurricanes.


During periods of gusty solar wind, powerful magnetic storms in space near the Earth cause vivid auroras, radio and television static, power blackouts, navigation problems for ships and airplanes with magnetic compasses, and damage to satelites and spacecraft. Events on the Sun and in the magnetosphere can also trigger changes in the electrical and chemical properties of the atmosphere, the ozone layer, and high-altitude temperatures and wind patterns.


Also


We've learned that Earth's atmosphere is protected from the solar wind by our magnetosphere. Even so, some solar wind energy does enter our magnetosphere and atmosphere and can cause a small amount of our atmosphere to be launched into space. We need to understand this loss of our atmosphere in order to understand our planet's environmental stability over a long time period.


science.nasa.gov...




The World Meteorological Organization has indicated that cloud seeding does not produce positive results in all cases and is dependent on specificity of clouds, wind speed and direction, terrain and other factors.


See, we cant create precipitation locally as there are too many factors to control, so imagine how difficult it would be to control the weather over an area of a few thousand square kilometres!

These attempts at controlling the weather have succeeded in various other areas where there is a dry climate and it is shown that they have gotten some rainfall out of these cloud-seeding experiments. It just so happens that the experiments from the ones within the US were a failure because they couldn’t see significant results.

www.cmar.csiro.au...



You admit you were wrong about this? This shows your lack of research/ knowledge about how HAARP operates.

I’ve just showed above how HAARP’s technology could have a severe impact on the atmosphere, whether or not HAARP was a starwars weapons program.


Ok, im confused now. You are willing to believe them when they talk about displacement of particles in the atmosphere, but you will not believe the official scope of the project?

They specifically said on their patent that it’s for the altering of various regions of the ionosphere. I don’t see how that coincides with what you said about researching the ionosphere. I see that they already understand the ionosphere-- the military just wants to control everything-- they want to control it.


Here's my first question for this post. Do you have any proof that the scientists at HAARP are lying about what they say HAARPs purpose is?

Their patent doesn’t suggest that it’s for research. They already have working satellites. I have stated above that the technologies could be used for weather modification.




Winds have nothing to do with the creation of hurricanes. Like I explained before, the main mechanisms are heating of a body of water, and subsequent condensation. Another question, can you prove that a century and a half of meteorological studies are incorrect about the creation of hurricanes? Because so far all you have talked about is relfection of particles in the ionosphere.


A hurricane has to have certain amount of wind speed for it to be considered a hurricane.


Tropical cyclone

When the wind speeds reach 74 mph, the storm is officially a tropical cyclone. The storm is at least 50,000 feet high and around 125 miles across. The eye is around 5 to 30 miles wide.

scijinks.jpl.nasa.gov...


Also again, this is contradictory. You believe ths, but refuse to believe the official purpose of HAARP?

Slightly. Although my argument is not based on HAARP. My argument is to show that hurricanes can be created.

And, you avoided this question on my last post


And a third question to my opponent. Can you find any link between HAARPs activation times and hurricane severity?


So can you?

I think I just did. Also, it is possible to create tornadoes…

We can create Tornadoes using articulating high-energy laser beams.

ezinearticles.com...

So why don’t you think we can’t create hurricanes?


[edit on 10/4/2008 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/4/2008 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/4/2008 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/4/2008 by semperfortis]



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 07:00 PM
link   

Perturbations in the ionosphere can have a significant effect on the weather. If they could use powerful technology for affecting the ionosphere and the magnetosphere they could impact weather on a global scale, maybe, causing natural disasters like hurricanes.


Before I answer this, I would just like to say that pertubations is defined in the online dictiornary as "a small change in a physical system". So you are saying that a small change in the displacement of ions in the upper ionosphere are able to cause hurricanes that affect a large section of the world. As the HAARP website (and I have already said this) it is not powerful enough to completely displace the ionopshere

On further research I found that the area of ionosphere affected by HAARP, does not in fact cover very large an area at all


During active ionospheric research, the signal generated by the transmitter system is delivered to the antenna array, transmitted in an upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an altitude between 100 to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a small volume a few hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in diameter over the site.


So if the HF signal points straight up, and only covers an area just slightly larger than the HAARP site, and is in Alaska which is thousands away from the tropics, how does it increase heating down there to cause a hurricane. I think the answer is plainly clear......it doesn't


The results could be fantastic, according to scientific journals. Scientific journals claim that HAARP is capable of causing artificial aurora borealis, it can also jam radar stations of early ballistic missile detection systems, communicate with submarines in the ocean and even detect secret underground complexes of the enemy. Radio-frequency emission is capable of piercing through the ground and examine hideaways and tunnels, it can burn out electronics and destroy space satellites. The equipment can also impact the atmosphere and thus cause changes in weather. HAARP is allegedly used for causing natural disasters similar to Huricanes Katrina and Rita.


The above is an extract from my opponents source. I did a bit of digging and discovered that it was from a Russian website and then after reading the following, I would question the reliability of the author


The newspaper Pravda analyzes events from the point of view of the Party's interests, whereas PRAVDA On-line takes a pro-Russian approach to forming its policy.
Wouldn't you agree that this gives more diversity to the world?


Another point that must be made is that the article doesn't explain in detail how hurricanes are produced by HAARP, nor does it explain who the "open sources" are. A bit suspect in my opinion.


It doesn’t matter that they’re a naturally occurring phenomenon. They can still be manipulated. One could easily make them more powerful.


My opponent has yet to explain how hurricanes can be created through weather modification. Only assumptions have been made and no credible evidence has been provided. And another point of interest is if they were thatr easily manipulated, then wouldnt they be directed away from the shore (or to less populated areas) rather than towards it.

All tropical circular storms are also affected by the coriolis effect, which is a very important thing to know about in meteorological terms. In the northern hemisphere, hurricanes spin in an anti-clockwise (or counter clockwise) direction. In the southern hemisphere, cyclones spin in a clockwise direction. As the storms move further (but not too far) south or north from the tropics they are "flung" in specific directions by the coriolis effect. In the southern hemisphere, coriolis flings cyclones in a south easterly direction, while in the northern hemisphere, coriolis flings them in a northesterly direction, hence the large number of hurricanes crossing the southern USA in the gulf region. It should be noted however that storms over cooler water on both sides of the equator, will usually be too far south or north to be affected by coriolis

upload.wikimedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

Is this another thing that can be controlled or manipulated by HAARP or anyone for that matter. Again, it would be impossible. For one to manipulate this, the earths rotation would have to be countered in some way. So what I am trying to say is that it would be extremely difficult to even slightly influence the track of these powerful storms.


Regions of the magnetosphere could be altered to allow more solar rays from the sun to come in so the water would get hotter quicker. Altering regions of the magnetosphere could change our atmosphere and may potentially quicken the process of forming different hurricanes.


And how is this supposed to occur? The HF signal is almost entirely absorbed by the ionopshere. In fact the most powerful energy recieved from the sun isnt even able to push all its energy through it. Although solar flares (which do not affect weather) have been known to push thorugh all the way through the lowest layers of the ionosphere.



They specifically said on their patent that it’s for the altering of various regions of the ionosphere. I don’t see how that coincides with what you said about researching the ionosphere. I see that they already understand the ionosphere-- the military just wants to control everything-- they want to control it.

Their patent doesn’t suggest that it’s for research. They already have working satellites. I have stated above that the technologies could be used for weather modification.


Ahem


HAARP is a scientific endeavor aimed at studying the properties and behavior of the ionosphere, with particular emphasis on being able to understand and use it to enhance communications and surveillance systems for both civilian and defense purposes.


The HAARP scope says otherwise


These attempts at controlling the weather have succeeded in various other areas where there is a dry climate and it is shown that they have gotten some rainfall out of these cloud-seeding experiments. It just so happens that the experiments from the ones within the US were a failure because they couldn’t see significant results.


That is partly incorrect. The general consensus of cloud seeding is that it is not relaible. Without controlling the wind up to 20,00ft, cloud types, temperature inversions, and other meteorological factors, cloud seeding will never be a good source of weather control. Plus, look at what happened at the Beijing olympics, after trying to create fine weather by drying out the atmosphere, rains swept in and bad weather plagued the first few days of competition. It is similar to cloud seeding, but works (well allaegedly works) in the opposite way

A few points from the same source as my opponent used:

    Clouds suitable for seeding had to occur in an area reasonably frequently, and be identified with a particular synoptic-scale weather pattern, namely, rain depressions or "closed lows".

    The frequency of occurrence of these suitable clouds, and the amount of extra rain expected to be derived, had to be such that there was a reasonable chance of detecting the seeding effects in five years.

    The cost of mounting the experiment had to be considerably less than the economic benefits from the extra rain.


www.cmar.csiro.au...

Not very relaible or economical is it. And again, if we cant alter cloud types, and create rain. How can we create towering thunderstorms and nimbostratus (nimbo meaning rain bearing) clouds which occupy hurricanes? Impossible.


A hurricane has to have certain amount of wind speed for it to be considered a hurricane.


Indeed it does. But wind is not a direct factor in the creation of hurricanes as my opponent implied in a previous post


And a third question to my opponent. Can you find any link between HAARPs activation times and hurricane severity?
So can you?



I think I just did. Also, it is possible to create tornadoes…


I wanted dates of HAARP being active coinciding with dates of hurricanes. My opponent did not provide that information.

And as for tornadoes. I am unsure as to how laser beams have an effect on vortex creation from a supercell thunderstorm. The article provided does not explain anything technical about how this is done. It only says it is possible. Another unreliable source

Now back to my opponent for our closing statements



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 10:54 PM
link   
I enjoyed this debate thoroughly. I thank my opponent for inviting me to join the debate. I have some closing comments about HAARP technology and weather manipulation technology for my last and final post in this topic.


Before I answer this, I would just like to say that pertubations is defined in the online dictiornary as "a small change in a physical system". So you are saying that a small change in the displacement of ions in the upper ionosphere are able to cause hurricanes that affect a large section of the world. As the HAARP website (and I have already said this) it is not powerful enough to completely displace the ionopshere

They can upgrade HAARP so that it can influence a particular region in the magnetosphere or the ionosphere.





During active ionospheric research, the signal generated by the transmitter system is delivered to the antenna array, transmitted in an upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an altitude between 100 to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a small volume a few hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in diameter over the site.


So if the HF signal points straight up, and only covers an area just slightly larger than the HAARP site, and is in Alaska which is thousands away from the tropics, how does it increase heating down there to cause a hurricane. I think the answer is plainly clear......it doesn't

You misunderstand my argument. I was only using HAARP as an example to show that they could manipulate the weather with it. If they can’t manipulate the weather through HAARP they could just use a bunch of space mirrors and reflect sunlight down to the sea over an area with a bunch of clouds overtop and warm the region of the water, and, make sure that the hurricane starts to form.




The above is an extract from my opponents source. I did a bit of digging and discovered that it was from a Russian website and then after reading the following, I would question the reliability of the author

I don’t see what’s wrong with Russian websites. After all they aren’t our enemy. I recommend that you look at the merits of the argument of the writer of the article and look into it rather than who wrote the article itself.



The newspaper Pravda analyzes events from the point of view of the Party's interests, whereas PRAVDA On-line takes a pro-Russian approach to forming its policy.
Wouldn't you agree that this gives more diversity to the world?

Just because something is pro-Russian doesn’t mean it’s anti-American.


Another point that must be made is that the article doesn't explain in detail how hurricanes are produced by HAARP, nor does it explain who the "open sources" are. A bit suspect in my opinion.

It looks like you misunderstood my argument. I was merely showing HAARP as an example of how you could influence regions of the ionosphere and the magnetosphere. I never said that it was the direct cause of the formation of hurricanes. I think just was using HAARP as an example to show that weather manipulation was possible.




My opponent has yet to explain how hurricanes can be created through weather modification. Only assumptions have been made and no credible evidence has been provided. And another point of interest is if they were thatr easily manipulated, then wouldnt they be directed away from the shore (or to less populated areas) rather than towards it.

They could place space mirrors above the atmosphere to reflect UV light from the sun down to the earth’s oceans over a specific spot to warm water in a certain area to start the formation of a hurricane.




another thing that can be controlled or manipulated by HAARP or anyone for that matter. Again, it would be impossible. For one to manipulate this, the earths rotation would have to be countered in some way. So what I am trying to say is that it would be extremely difficult to even slightly influence the track of these powerful storms.

This scientist from this website claims that storms can be moved with lasers

made arrangements to move into position to make direct measurements of what i now had become convinced were satellites sending laser beams to earth to ignite and move storms ... this was also confirmed when the strange Brazilian Hurricane of last March showed definite signs of manipulation ... on JANUARY 01, 2005 I MADE THE DIRECT MEASUREMENT AND CONFIRMED THROUGH MULTIPLE READINGS BY TRIANGULATION THE LASER SIGNATURE THAT WAS DRIVING THE STORM OFF THE WEST COAST OF OREGON SA

www.jmccanneyscience.com...


Regions of the magnetosphere could be altered to allow more solar rays from the sun to come in so the water would get hotter quicker. Altering regions of the magnetosphere could change our atmosphere and may potentially quicken the process of forming different hurricanes.


And how is this supposed to occur? The HF signal is almost entirely absorbed by the ionopshere. In fact the most powerful energy recieved from the sun isnt even able to push all its energy through it. Although solar flares (which do not affect weather) have been known to push thorugh all the way through the lowest layers of the ionosphere.



They specifically said on their patent that it’s for the altering of various regions of the ionosphere. I don’t see how that coincides with what you said about researching the ionosphere. I see that they already understand the ionosphere-- the military just wants to control everything-- they want to control it.

Their patent doesn’t suggest that it’s for research. They already have working satellites. I have stated above that the technologies could be used for weather modification.



The HAARP scope says otherwise

HAARP’s own purpose suggests that it’s a military program for military uses.

This invention could be employed to disrupt not only land based communications, both civilian and military, but also airborne communications and sea communications (both surface and subsurface).




How can we create towering thunderstorms and nimbostratus (nimbo meaning rain bearing) clouds which occupy hurricanes? Impossible.

We wouldn't create the clouds we would manipulate them.

The most significant modifications
proved to be in the starting temperatures
and winds.

www.grossmont.edu...

This website talks about weakening the power of hurricanes. Since it’s possible to weaken the power of hurricanes I think it would be safe to make them stronger.


Indeed it does. But wind is not a direct factor in the creation of hurricanes as my opponent implied in a previous post

Wind may not be a direct factor but it is an important one. Wind directs a hurricane to move west to the land.


I wanted dates of HAARP being active coinciding with dates of hurricanes.

Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita are hurricanes which are said to have been manipulated through the use of HAARP.

That was my point, that the cration of tornadoes is possible.

Back to you.

[edit on 10/4/2008 by semperfortis]



posted on Oct, 2 2008 @ 01:47 AM
link   
Closing Statement

First of thanks to my opponent again, for accepting the challenge and debating me. Also, I would like to send out a general thanks to Semperfortis and Memoryshock for making it all possible. I would also like to apologise for my changes in style over the last two posts, I will refer back to my original style now


Quick Rebuttal

They can upgrade HAARP so that it can influence a particular region in the magnetosphere or the ionosphere.


Again I would just like to say that targeting the ionopshere and magnetopshere will not produce effects at the surface necessary for the creation of a hurricane.


If they can’t manipulate the weather through HAARP they could just use a bunch of space mirrors and reflect sunlight down to the sea over an area with a bunch of clouds overtop and warm the region of the water, and, make sure that the hurricane starts to form.


Could, but they havent done that.


It looks like you misunderstood my argument. I was merely showing HAARP as an example of how you could influence regions of the ionosphere and the magnetosphere. I never said that it was the direct cause of the formation of hurricanes. I think just was using HAARP as an example to show that weather manipulation was possible.


With this quote in mind, my opponent has failed to address any other hurricane weather manipulation methods for his side of the debate.


They could place space mirrors above the atmosphere to reflect UV light from the sun down to the earth’s oceans over a specific spot to warm water in a certain area to start the formation of a hurricane.


It is possible, but there is no evidence of it, plus several other factors will still need to be controlled for this to be able to become even slightly plausible. It will never work with todays current technology


HAARP’s own purpose suggests that it’s a military program for military uses.


Inocorrect, HAARP has always maintained it is for joint military and civilian use as a previous link I used confirms. Another point to take into account is that using the word military, does not indicate that HAARP is a type of weapon or a covert operation. It is a common misconception for anything labelled as military.


This website talks about weakening the power of hurricanes. Since it’s possible to weaken the power of hurricanes I think it would be safe to make them stronger


But the site never says that it was succesful on any attempt. And drying out the moisture in a hurricane and creating it are two different things. From the four years I have been working here at the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, and working in a tropical region prone to cyclones, the only way to stop one is by cutting off its source, which is the warm ocean. So that means the only way to stop a hurricane is to move it over land, or to cooler waters


Wind may not be a direct factor but it is an important one. Wind directs a hurricane to move west to the land.


Yes, wind is important, but its not the only factor that is important in forecasting a hurricanes movement. One must also take into account the coriolis effect plus the entire synoptic situation from the west coast of the USA to the west coast of Africa can play a part. In explanation, ridges, troughs, cold fronts, warm fronts, occluded fronts, high pressure systems, low pressure systmes and other tropical depressions can all play a part in the track of a hurricane or other circular storm.

Conclusion
As we have seen, there is no conclusive evidence to say that HAARP or any other weather manipulation tool, is able to control or create hurricanes.

My opponent has argued that playing around with the ionopshere using HAARP, some 75 to an astounding 500 kilometres higher than the troposphere (where all the earths weather occurs) can lead to control of an enormous storm system, that has the ability to produce more power than HAARP can produce itself

Hurricanes, Cyclones and Typhoons, have been occuring for millions of years, and will continue for millions of years into the future. The research I have provided within my links, plus using my own knowledge, that I have learned through my job, shows that hurricanes are nothing but a natural phenomenen, that we are unable to influence. All you need is the right conditions in the warm tropical regions of the world, something that we, as man, are unable to replicate efficiently and on a large scale.

So my final statement is:

Hurricanes are a naturally occuring phenomenen, that can not be manipulated or created artificially.

Thankyou for reading my debate and I hand control back to judges and moderators of this thread

OzWeatherman



posted on Oct, 2 2008 @ 06:31 AM
link   
Now it's all up to the Judges.

Stay Tuned

Semper



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:37 PM
link   
Results are in...


This is a very interesting topic and the Fighters did an excellent job. Kudos to both.

However, I think OzWeatherman made the stronger case through and through and as well, Frankidealist35 made some mistakes, of which the major flaw is highlighted by the following quote:



What proof do I have? Logic. It makes sense that this was part of the star wars defense system.


There are many things that 'make sense' or can be construed to make sense. Hence the need for an actual step by step explanation of the logic process. As well, Frankidealist35 linked to an FOIA document in his second post as proof of military application. But there was technically nothing in there that pointed to weather manipulation on a predictable scale. Indeed, the link mostly described the manipulation of our upper atmosphere as a communications tool. Though Frankidealist35 did supply an allusion to weather modification by displaying the patent, it wasn't enough to rebound from.

OzWeatherman did well to point these out and was also very clear and concise in his presentation and seemed to successfully counter every argument. I find that he is the winner by a comfortable margin.




First off, it was an interesting debate. Given Oz's field of employment, he had the upper hand going into the debate. Saying that though, FI did a pretty good job. HAARP was the obvious choice to use to try and prove that hurricanes could in fact, be artificially fabricated. He did a good job of explaining what HAARP is, from a CT point of view. He lost points though for the poor structure and some unaccredited material. He also overstepped on the amount of links to be used in his opening so it was up to me to decide which one's to ignore. His argument was very weak in some of his posts also. He relied way to much upon his sources to win his argument and didn't add enough of his own thoughts to the discourse. He also could have used other arrays to bolster his side to explain the distances required. He had some strong points, such as the magnetosphere manipulation, that he should have expanded on further.

Oz did a fine job of proving his side using science and good thought out rebuttals. Most of Franks weaker points were refuted quickly. Also, pointing out that HAARP wasn't a part of starwars defence program put Frank on the defensive for a period.

Although both did a decent job and I would like to congratulate them both on their first debate, my decision goes to OzWeatherman




I give the nod to Oz.



That's it Folks...

Unanimous Decision to OZWeatherman

Congratulations to both fighters!!!

Semper



posted on Oct, 6 2008 @ 04:51 PM
link   
Thanks guys

Im really flattered that you voted for me to win this, my first debate. Its been great fun and I even learned some stuff myself.

Im sure Frank and myself will be around in the future so feel free to challenge us both

Look forward to debating you guys soon






new topics
top topics
 
3

log in

join