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Bailouts - Why Whining Americans Don't Get It

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posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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A few points for SteveR

1. There are other bailout options that don't include building up the banks that caused this fiasco. One example: www.youtube.com...

2. This is a government power play. Doesn't the supposed "urgency" to pass this bailout and the critical threat sound very similar to the scare tactics that have been used through the years of the Bush administration? They are using scare tactics to con us into this bailout and they are telling us this is the only way. They are liars. They want the power that goes along with this bailout. There are many other better options.

3. Supporting prosperity over freedoms is communism/fascism. Do we really want to become a nation that gives up everything our country was founded upon for the purposes of prosperity?

4. There are many well-known economists who say the current plan will only make the issue worse. The problem must be addressed and the problem will not be solved by continuously propping up a failing system.

Sorry SteveR but this bailout is going DOWN! The latest count is 300 calls to 1 against the bailout to congress. Talks are breaking down in congress because of the overwhelming feelings against the bailout in its current form. A petition has been signed by nearly 200 economists now who have PHDs and say this bailout won't work. People who make millions at www.tickerforum.org... must be illiterate and must not understand the market since they don't support this bailout according to your labeling of people who don't support this bailout as "mentally ill".

And I close with www.youtube.com...

Edit: Decided to add Senator Bunning's view on the bailout since I think he understands the situation quite well as he has been predicting this for years.
src.senate.gov...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

[edit on 27-9-2008 by Bugman82]




posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by Bugman82
 


Yeah, if a movie were made about this it would be called-"Weekend at Bernanke's". The corpse would be the financial system and the guys partying would be elected officials and MSM shills.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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They just had a senator on the news, saying that one of the things they want to throw money at, 400 million, is to La Raza and Acorn, who help illegal aliens.

So now we are bailing them out too.

Ama



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 10:47 AM
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I have a different view as most of you.

If the gov don't bail out some of the financial institution then one by one they will drop like flies. The results:

-More job loss
-Retail and other businesses will get effected and will close down due to less consumer spending
-no one left standing to finance homes and car loans
-we would end up paying everything in cash
-this domino effect will continue to cause home prices to fall
-auto business will close down due to people can't afford to pay in cash for new vehicles, more jobs are lost in the auto industry.
-homes would be worth nothing, and current home owner will stop paying for their mortgage because it's already upside down - there is no point in paying
-all business is effected
-we get reduce to a third world county and everyone fend for themselves and kill each other over the remainding jobs - which will pay u dirt cheap because they can
-we would enter into a complete depression like te 30s - average people would stand in the corners and beg for money like hobos.
-crime would increase due to proverty.

Eventhough I hate the idea of bailing out these institution that cause it upon themselves. I remember it was around 10% of all jobs were in this industry. The population had their role in it too. We have to find a way to fix the problem, or be prepare to take it up the a55 even more.








[edit on 27-9-2008 by amfirst]



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 10:47 AM
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One must remember in a free market econony some businesses fail
for lack of oversight. I will give you an example my brother& i owned a restraunt where we live we were making good money, this was going to be our retirement nest egg, but the lady that we rented our building from
failed to deal with her obligation to the I.R.S. and restraunt had to close
because of the seizer of the her assets, also 4 other businesses in the same building had to close. I'm not crying for a bailout, but you see when you don't take responsibility for your duties others will have to pay for your mistakes. LIFE GOES ON. No one should tamper with the market or economy. The market has a way of weeding out bad deals on it own it needs no help. All this strated out with the oil companies getting greedy, and then all these CEO's from other companies jumped on the bandwagon.
It all is starting to trickle down. There should be no exscape goats, it is time to point out the people that created this problem and bring them in the open and seize all there assets. like i like to say you came in with nothing you leave with nothing unless you pay for it. I just think the market has a way of dealing with people that can't play by the rules like the rest of us. I think we need to just help out as many of our fellow AMERICANS ,we are all going through this tough time together and we can get through this. NO BAILOUTS FOR WALL STREET. Just to add one more thing i went in to work yesterday the company that work for about 3 months ago changed our 401k's from wachovia trust to WAMU and majority of my fellow workers lost alot of there retirement. it seems to me that this is a transfer of wealth from the middle class to the rich.

hope the best to all for now is the time to just survive.NO BAILOUT



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 10:55 AM
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Stop Whining ! You're right SteveR, we should be YELLING !
The United States is flat broke.
This is just another subversive act by the Bush Gangsters to protect their own and let the poor US citizens foot the bill. Grab the loot and cover your tracks. Similar to what happened with 9/11.

That's why recently Goldman Sachs, who brought us Paulsen and JP Morgan converted to a Commercial BANK. They now have a firewall protecting them from revealing how the books have been cooked !

Bush already has the Dictatorial power via his Un-Patriot act at the flick of his pen and now Paulsen is attempting to declare martial law over the overall financial system and economy. Stop whining and begin YELLING !

The FIX is IN and the system is already broken, Bailout or not really doesn't matter.

What the Bailout's Billions WILL do is only add to our existing debt which will ONLY accelerate hyperinflation by drastically increasing the money supply and in turn killing the dollar.

Whether we have a functioning banking system or not, we'll have toilet paper for money which won't bode well for our economy either if your entire paycheck won't cover the purchase of a single bag of groceries.

Welcome to the New World Order.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by SteveR


Are you kidding me? Are you really so unaware that this is not about you, this is about the entire economy, civilization as we know it. Your viewpoints are founded in nothing more than a total ignorance of how your country works. Same as most here. This is not about bank accounts, this is about EVERYTHING.



You are a very funny man. I think you should add comedian to the scholar in your avatar.
Banks are our creation. We create banks. We create money. You make it sound like Banks are the be all and end all of Human Civilisation. They are not.
As to the End of civilizations as we know it, by that do you mean a civilization abused and corrupted by small interest groups with no regard for the many, as I could live with the end of that civilization. I know of many, many people who would too.
Your view points are founded on nothing but ignorance and arrogance, you accept the way your country works. Others are clearly fed up. It is you who is the whiner. A mouthpiece for Institutionalized greed and excess which now seeks to cloak itself as our only salvation. You sicken me Sir.
This is about bank accounts. Those that are being filled by those that can least afford it.
Your proliferation of this myth that we cannot survive without these corrupt and rancid institutions is almost as laughable as Mr. Paulsons section 8 expectations that his allocations of taxpayers $700 billion dollars will come under no scrutiny or review.
Even a proctologists explains what he is going to do to you, before he does it.

Take a deep breath and relax America, this is going to hurt.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by SteveR
 
Yes folks and there really is a Santa Claus.

The suits in Washington are screwing the American People royally up the arse and have sold us all out. Doing the best at mucking us all over is what is happening.



[edit on 27-9-2008 by ofhumandescent]



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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Actually, three economists (on Lou Dobbs) spoke to the issue last night (one from Harvard) and thought the 700 billion rescue was essentially without merit for taxpayers. One opined that it would not prevent perhaps 10 million foreclosures depressing adjacent home values for an additional 40 million homeowners. Several mentioned that Congress has already given 400 billon dollars to lending institutions, and that they have not been lending out the money they received. "Whining" is of course ridicule, which is the counterfeit of argument. Perhaps it your alternative to a rational discourse about what can be done to effectively help Americans. This package has no mandate to any bank to restore liquidity to the market, or to assure future lending. It is a giveaway to the rich, and will hopefully be so drastically revised as to appear unrecognizable from the present proposal.

Douglas Elmendorf, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington stated:

"The Treasury's new plan for stabilizing the financial system has already made a sharp impression on financial markets and the public consciousness. Yet little has been revealed about how the plan will work.

"The Resolution Trust Corporation of the early 1990s provides scant guidance on how to proceed. That company was designed to sell assets the government had acquired by honoring deposit insurance at savings and loans. But the objective now is to buy assets. The challenge is picking the best means of doing so. What should the government buy, from whom, in what quantity and at what price?

"The Treasury plans to purchase mortgage-related debt, which lies at the heart of the crisis. Yet this approach has significant disadvantages.

"First, mortgage-backed securities and derivatives of these securities are not all alike. Reverse auctions within broad debt classes would be risky, because current holders would try to unload the lowest-quality securities within each class. Relying on the judgment of hired investment firms to pick prices and quantities has the potential for inefficiency, unfairness and abuse.

"Second, buying troubled debt provides the most help to firms that made the worst investments. Banks that stayed clear of bad debt or cut their losses early would receive little or no gain, while banks with the weakest balance sheets would reap the biggest rewards. Not only is this unfair, it would dampen the impetus for restructuring the financial sector to give a smaller role to institutions and business models that have failed.

"Third, taxpayers would take on significant risk but see limited potential gain — in contrast with the rescues of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and AIG, where taxpayers got large equity stakes.

"An alternative approach is to make equity investments in a wide range of financial institutions. If the government offered each bank an investment equal to a given percent of its market value in exchange for a corresponding equity stake, the problems I listed above would be avoided. And because the government would be a minority shareholder, it would not directly manage or control these banks. This approach raises its own concerns that would need to be addressed, but it is a more promising starting point."

www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/22/business/22economists.php

Write your Congressperson, or better yet call and fax them to oppose the bill. We need to return our Country to prospeity, not to further devalue the Dollar. Flash_dancer



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by SteveR


The anger and whining will not solve anyone's problems. The People need to understand we are all a part of the symbiotic whole.
Man, you just get funnier and funnier. You need to understand that you can't anthropomorphise institutional banks into the equation, as a necessity of life.
Symbiosis is a term referring to the Long term interactions between different biological species. It can be more specifically defined as Mutual, Parasitic and Commensal.
In this case, the bail out would be the need to support the Parasitic Practices and Life of the Banks(and the greedy lackeys within). Whom otherwise would die due to natural causes(i.e. greedy lackeys destroying their own ability to survive within the environment of a free market).
Why should we now try and keep a fat, bloated, diseased parasite alive......oh yeah, you think its a mutual symbiosis. Wrong, but you are funny. Funny Scholar.


Without the financial systems, they'll be wishing they were in Zimbabwe. Some don't even know who is to blame - "NWO Zionists" has to be the most amusing explanation I've heard yet! But it is indicative of the ignorance and lack of education among them.
Tell me, how long has this financial system been responsible for the way we survive as Humans. Did you know that the reason why Zimbabwe is so screwed is due to the IMF and World Bank. Oops.....I bet you didn't know that. You funny little Bank Munch-kin you.

One hundred years after the South African Company comes the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank to Zimbabwe. As the economy in Zimbabwe stagnated in 1990, the government turned to the IMF and the World Bank and adopted structural adjustment plans. This has put Zimbabwe on a chaotic road downwards. During the first year of implementation of the structural adjustment plan(s), gross domestic product, which had been growing at over 4 percent a year, increased by only 1 percent in 1991. Industrial production, which had been rising nearly 6 percent per year, fell back to 2 percent.

Zimbabwe had always been a surplus maize producer with stockpiles of more than 1 million tons to tide the country over drought years. (Jean Duval, April 20, 2000, from the "In Defense of Marxism" website.) After implementing the structural adjustment plan(s) of the World Bank -- which forced the government of Zimbabwe to sell its stockpiles of maize to make a profit so as to pay IMF and World Bank debt -- Zimbabwe now has to import maize to feed its destitute population.

The IMF and World Bank structural adjustment plan(s) have precipitated food shortages in Zimbabwe, for which the ZANU-PF government is being blamed. These food shortages (read: famine) are part of the excuses used by the U.S. and EU to sanction Zimbabwe. Furthermore, the IMF and World Bank structural adjustment plan(s) devastated the economy of the South African country of Zimbabwe.

Oh those great Banks there to help and save us. That we just can't live without.
Oh the Joy of symbiotic mutually assured destruction.
www.nathanielturner.com...
Just Google any third world Country, IMF and World Bank. You'll get more of the same.
Banks....yep, we so need them.
Symbiotic......man, i can't breath for laughing. Cheers.





posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by imd12c4funn
 


Hey IMD12...if thier are 14 million homeowners not all of the homeowners are in trouble...just about 8 or 9 percent.

SO IF YOU DO the math that 700 billion does not add up.

Just where the hell is this money going?

That is the question.

Many thanks IMD12 ...you made me realize that the math is not there.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 11:59 AM
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Steve R i got a question for you

you seem to be a "scholar" but i'm not sure what area your expertise is in, i wonder if it were "finance" , like the brilliant ben bernake . What they should teach in the finance classes is how to carry out class warfare, how to use the media to LIE, and make other perceive you are doing things that protect tax payers, and how to operate when you are out of your depth next to seasoned wall street conmen (like PAULSON). Unfortunately Finance classes indoctrinate everyone with Chicago school economics propoganda and that is no lie. But put my rant aside for a moment and answer

what makes you think that 700B of tax payer funds will "fix" this systematic problem , what makes you think the banks would WANT TO LEND to american's anyway, (banks won't be confident they will get there money back) , this will not stop housing values from plunging (less HELOC's) , also there are up to 4.5 trillion in ASSETS that can qualify to be purchased by the TARP plan but only 700 billion in funds now. Or is there some devil in the details that allows the amount to be greater than 700B?


yes the country is dependant on the financial institutitons and the credit they provide, but what makes you think this 700Billion is going to solve the crisis. The banks need capital, they need Soverign Wealth Fund investment which = more foreign control of america.

globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com... nuriel rubini


The Treasury plan (even in its current version agreed with Congress) is very poorly conceived and does not contain many of the key elements of a sound and efficient and fair rescue plan



It is a disgrace that no professional economist was consulted by Congress or invited to present his/her views at the Congressional hearings on the Treasury rescue plan.


gee i wonder why, perhaps they would not champion this "giveaway".


The Treasury plan is a disgrace: a bailout of reckless bankers, lenders and investors that provides little direct debt relief to borrowers and financially stressed households and that will come at a very high cost to the US taxpayer. And the plan does nothing to resolve the severe stress in money markets and interbank markets that are now close to a systemic meltdown.




[edit on 27-9-2008 by cpdaman]



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by SteveR
How do you think the father gets his job? The kid his/her foods?

It's called the economy. If they give in to your whines and give you all your $7000 bailouts instead of supporting market institutions, WHAT will happen? WHAT will you spend it on?

The government's main priority is keeping the economy functioning. Only a fool would begrudge that.
I think you need to look at real facts and not spin. Bailout is NOT good for the taxpayer period. Regardless of the hype and spin, it is a horrendous idea. Let the banks fail, and let the other banks take up the slack. Those that have more than $100,000 in those institutions will lose. Those that have gambled their life savings on junk bonds, bloated stocks, will lose. It's time the market got back to reality.

The government's main priority is representing the public and protecting us, not the industrialist, and don't you dare try to sell me that bill of trash. It was corruption in government that allowed us to get this far, and it's time WE stopped this crap.

This is happening because the promissory notes we pass around in lieu of real money is not wort the $0.02 it costs to make them. Just like the "Dot Com" bust people have been putting money into virtual space, and counting on something that never existed. Market speculation has driven the cost of oil up, not supply and demand, so let the market fall, and maybe you can afford a tank of gas and your mortgage payment.

Sub-prime lending, outrageously inflated housing prices have made billions for the industries that build and finance them, but it was the working class that ultimately lost out first. By not being capable of paying back those loans, after losing their jobs to out-sourcing overseas, the very institutions that supported this meltdown now want us to bail them out.

Wake up America, because if this bailout does pass, it will be the end of America as we know it. Let the banks and markets fail, and we will have just cause to barter and trade until we repeal the Fed Reserver Act and get back to a real monetary system.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 12:05 PM
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This is classic...

Economic Aide Sees Russia At the Top 26 September 2008

Dvorkovich offered the U.S. government's proposed bailout of its financial sector and the nationalization and bankruptcies of several of its largest financial institutions as evidence of the end of free-market economics as we know it.



Yulia Tseplyayeva, a chief economist for Russia and CIS countries with Merrill Lynch, was positive about the government's move to increase its private-sector activity in the short term and provide loans to struggling banks.

Hey!! If the Russians are excited about it..it must be a good thing right??
Of course there is that little thing about "..with Merrill Lynch.." Hmmm


"The government has never done anything like this before," Tseplyayeva said. "In the short term, it will be beneficial for the market, but in the mid and long term there will be macroeconomic risks."

'The government..' they are talking about their government here, but.."in the MID and LONG TERM there WILL BE macroeconomic risks"??? omg really?? I guess that's putting it lightly tho lol


"The private sector is more efficient than the government, and global growth will slow down if the share of government in the economy increases," Sharipova said.


WHAT?? just in case you missed that: "The private sector is more efficient than the government, and global growth will slow down if the share of government in the economy increases," Sharipova said.

I can't find much on this Yelena Sharipova person, except shes a senior economist at Renaissance Capital..

But now the Russians are calling US out on becoming a more Socialistic form of Government? Just classic!



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 12:16 PM
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reply to post by SteveR
 


Give em your money then DUDE!!! Better yet, when you get ready to leave for work in the mornings just drop your pants, and then walk out your front door backwards holding your ankles...




posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by maudeeb
It's truly inspiring to see just how many clueless people there are on this thread and how only the OP seems to have a firm grasp on the current situation. Looks like the majority of ATS participants are self absorbed crybabies.


Oh, I forgot to mention probably unpatriotic too.

[edit on 26-9-2008 by maudeeb]


For the record- I was being sarcastic... about all of it. I'm with the majority here ! This whole thing reminds me of the patriot act scramble and I was against that one too.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by SteveR
 


I don't see how a bailout would help our economy. It's going to crash whether we do the bail out or not.

Also this means you want the bailout which means you want ceos to get a good paycheck for creating this problem while the people who work there buts off for the company to get nothing and thrown to the curb.

the bailout is just to save the ceos top people. I heard you think this bail out would help the economy well it plain out won.

The economy is crashing that bailout would do little but it wont prevent the economy from crashing.

I we should focus on bringing the troops back and also investing in the workforce by taking income tax off.

I am against the bail out because I don't see how this will help us from the economy from crashing if it's crashing anyways why should be help the people that created this problem??? If the economy falls it falls. I only see the bail out to help the ceos and top people to be able to go to another country and start over while we here suffer from the problems they made.

So I disagree with you on about Americans complaining too much since I believe they should since crooks are trying to legally take our own money.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by atlasastro
 


I don't agree with you. I think the quoted guy that you replied to is correct. well most part of it.

it's not all about the banks it's about the economy. wall street gets effected by economic news. This means if no one buys shares of microsoft or any computer company then those company go broke which would result in no computers in the future.

Wall Street(stock exchange) This is the backbone of the economy this is where most public companies sell their shares. This is the funding machine that runs microsoft and many other companies.

If our economy slips or breaks down you slowly start to see the unemployment rising because no companies can afford workers which would result less jobs. This rate slowly increases.

Then at a point it becomes a problem. When it gets to a dangerous stage where the economy is weak then this will make it very hard for companies to keep moving. This usually results in dropping products being made to help cut costs.

So he is right to an extent our civilization will be gone well not quite but our modern age will be gone we will go back in time and start hunting and moving around like the cavemen did back then. How ever the only difference is that we are still better educated.

but the markets fall causing us to have to hunt for food since no factory would be running.

this is what is predicted will happen. So even if we do that bailout it's too late to fix this problem so it's worthless but it's a way to get the ceos and top people to be able to leave the country before the fall and work at other places so they don't suffer just us hard working americans would suffer from a problem that these ceos created for us.





[edit on 27-9-2008 by computerwiz32]



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 12:58 PM
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I dont appreciate you using the term"WHINING AMERICANS"..You must be from another country or some ungodly wealthy person who has warped values and views money as not an object and doesnt appreciate the term american.I can respect that you do make clear concise points in your posts, I care about the economy but I cannot change it, I live in an ungodly expensive state and its terrible but I drive on and I am survivor. I just do not appreciate the term WHINING AMERICANS. Perhaps you could maybe change it to DISTRAUGHT AMERICANS...Thank you



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by Snift
 


The bailing out is the US economy and Joe Sixpack not Wall Street.

Here's the way it normally works, a number of different mortgages are made by a lending institution. Some of them have class A paper, (say a group of 750 credit score borrowers, all getting the lowest rates available) class B paper (say a group 625 credit score borrowers paying a higher interest rate) and some grade C paper (say a group of 525 credit score borrowers really getting reamed on their interest rates). These mixed mortgages are "bundled up" (like little sticks all bundled together with a rope), then based on some average return rate (a combination of the mortgages and their rates) they get sold to the secondary market. The original funds loaned by the lender on this bundled group are recycled back to the lender to be re-loaned to other borrowers. That original lender takes a "discounted" amount (his profit) from the secondary market and the Securities (bundle) now belong to a group of investors who benefit long-term from the interest being paid by the original borrowers. (those owning the Securities might be a Fire Department penison fund, or a Mutual Fund owned by teachers, or a foreign fund owned by retirees from Germany etc.)

So today, it's a small portion of the class C paper that was mixed into sold bundles that's causing the problems. The bundles Securities are delivering smaller returns than they should be to those that bought and hold them. Some percentage of those are under performing because they were granted based on questionable information not properly verified somewhere in the process, could be a bad application (liars loan) could be a bad appraisal, could be late payments, could be foreclosures.

So now the cycling of available funds for loans is drying up because new bundles don't have any Buyers. There are no Buyers because there is no telling how they will really perform in the future. So all credit, for everything is drying up. That's causing banks to fail and a run on bank deposits by joe sixpack looking to save his life savings. Banks are failing and it's sending our country into a recession, then a depression because there is no money for corporate credit lines. You can't cycle funds that aren't in the system.

The "bail-out" is designed to first help isolate those class c mortgages by removing them from the bundles they're currently installed in allowing the bundles to perform as promised, that adds confidence to the overall system. That confidence means the fire department pension fund will buy more bundles. Buying more bundles means the lenders get their recycled liquidity back so they can grant more loans. That breathes life back into what is now a dying system.

New loan bundles won't have the same risk because new regulations will keep the assortment of factors that allowed for the risky paper being first written and loaned against, then bundled up with good paper.

Most of the "bail out" monies that will be used to buy the "bad paper" will come back to our government because only a small percentage of the class C paper is actually bad. Most of those folks are making their payments on time. It's the "unknown amount" in the equation that's freaking the market out and causing it to over react, to retract, it's like a snowball rolling down a hill.

If $700 Billion goes out, it's likely $550 Billion comes back in before it's all over. Could be it all comes back plus profit.

We aren't bailing out fat cats, we are bailing out our own liquidity system. Without liquidity it's joe sixpack who will lose his job, not the fat cats. The hysteria is "politics" entering the system trying to figure out how to position itself to be on the winning side. It's not country first, it's politics first and you need to ignore it for now cause it's not your friend. It's unfortunate that no one explains this correctly. Good luck...




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