Bailouts - Why Whining Americans Don't Get It

Originally posted by OhZone
Someone suggests that we get back to hunting our food.
Someone else who has no idea of reality.

There isn't even enough food for the wildlife. Now we are supposed to join the competition.

It's been estimated that, in the United States, there are more whitetail deer than during the time of Daniel Boone. They're eating just fine. Sure, they're eating corn crops, but the corn crops continue to be the largest in human history.

Same is true of wild turkey.

Heck, in our area, the Department of Conservation has been releasing rattlesnakes(!) in the hopes that they'll kill some of the turkeys.

I doubt we're hurting for food. At least, not yet. If we have another Depression, there likely won't be enough deer and turkey. The 30's is when the U.S. deer population almost disappeared.

Well, hopefully the bailout will help to save all retired people from certain poverty, possible homelessness and death by violence or starvation.
What's grandma going to do when she has nothing to barter? Barter her body??

Well, I suppose you could eat grandma...

I happen to agree. A lot of the righteous anger comes from an ignorance of history (we lt 'em fail in the '30s, we tightly controlled the money supply, and we tried to enact laws to protect the American worker from cheap foreign goods... that went terribly, but wouldn't it work this time?) and a deep ignorance of how deep this credit crisis, and the amount of junk "debt" which "must" be paid at this time would be triggered by just letting the banks fail. There aren't enough assets on Earth to pay off the CDSes.

Fix the current crisis, then tackle the rest of the mess, starting with why the SEC was allowing naked shorting, or why CDSes can be purchased by outside parties, and just how much of this was going on hand in hand. The bear funds are doing great this year; why not look at those guys first?

Hell, that sounds like a sweet deal. I'm gonna buy a fire insurance policy on my neighbor's house, then torch it! Or, maybe I could ask to borrow the deed to my neighbor's house, then sell his house, then still collect the money even if he never gives me the deed.

Maybe I'm just too naive to understand the situation, but why do these shady business deals threaten to tear down the United States? To me, the people involved should be the ones crashing down. We the American people should not be left staring at a situation where if the banks fail, we're screwed; but if they don't, and if we help 'em out at considerable expense, we're slightly less screwed.

Originally posted by Ex_MislTech
I think Ron Paul knows a bit more than you, and I dare say the
MANY economists that agree with him know more than you.

...

I suggest all who read this get ready for some dark days.

Wall Street crash of 1929

Ron Paul wants to just let it all crash. That's what we did in 1929.

Ron Paul wants to do away with the Fed at a time of severe economic crisis. We don't have enough gold, or anything else, to cover even 10% of our debt.

Ron Paul...you know what, look, forget it, his political life is a matter of public record. If you can't be bothered to learn that the man is two-faced, and if you can't be bothered to learn that American Libertarianism uses cherry-picked Founding Father quotes to convince the populace to embrace and accept neo-Feudalism, then it's hopeless to try to convince people otherwise. Y'all scream at us to wake up, while you sleep your way through Revolution: A Manifesto.

If y'all can't figure out that our government is doing what it feels is the exact opposite of the government's response back then, I'm sorry, but it'll never make sense. The evidence, again, is a matter of public record.

You think you live in 1984? Vote Barr. Provided he can actually affect the sort of changes the true Libertarians want, we won't have to worry about 1984, because we'll be living in 1484.

My grandmother also lived through the Depression. She always warned me to look out for tough times, and I believed her. I do not, however, believe we're in for a Great Depression event. Unfortunately, it might end up being similar anyway, or just as bad but in uniquely different ways.

[edit on 28-9-2008 by regeya]

I'm sure there are some banks that didn't get involved with these types of mortgages and are ready, willing and able to take the failed banks place.

the market will work things out sooner then later

This is the way I see it. The market is "destined" to fail in the first place because of how the whole system is setup. So my opinion on the subject is why make us, the taxpayers, pay for a bailout and keep the corporations rich just to lengthen our dying system? The $700 billion bailout is a small temporary patch to the real problem.

By your verbage it sounds like you think you know the future, but you don't. And neither do I. So how about you don't call us whining for protecting ourselves?

Anyone who believes that we need this bailout need to step back and consider two things.

1.) This bailout is being pushed by those who were until recently saying that things weren't too bad and everything was about to turn around for the better. This tells me that they are either incompetent or liars. I lean towards them being both, but either way it goes they have no credibility.

2.) When forbes.com asked the treasury how they came up with the 700 Billion number this is how they responded. "It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

At every turn Bernake and Paulson both show stunning stupidity when it comes to knowledge of our economy and reality in general. I seriously doubt they have a clue on how to fix a flat tire, much less the economy.

Originally posted by SteveR
reply to post by mecheng

 

Mecheng, if we do not bailout there will not be a depression. It will be worse than you could possibly imagine. We're talking nightmare scenario. Bartering or killing for simple goods. If all the bailouts were given to private individuals and financial institutions collapsed, that is where we'd be.

Fear Mongering at it's best. We would do FINE without the banks, without the Federal Reserve, and without the IRS. We did it before, we can go it again. People would just need to come to the realization that they would actually need to work to sustain their lives, rather than borrow, borrow, borrow. This would actually make people a little more appreciative of what they have.
No bailout for the criminals on Wall Street. And I say that if they do pass a bill, then they have just declared war on the American people, and we should respond appropriately. After all, we have Constitutional Obligations as well, and the 2nd Amendment is in place for a reason. Time to fly the Gadsden.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
We will clearly get most of this money back in the future and possibly a profit before it is over.

you are clearly naive or ignorant on this point

Clearly getting most of the money back in the future? Gee no other investor is willing to buy a portion of this crap sandwich for a reason, there will be no profit made from this , get real. Also the gov't will surely OVER pay for this crap, otherwise no bank would come to the table!

here's from a person much smarter than YOU or ME

he shows 42! examples of financial crises and the response in each one, and goes into detail why this Bailout/giveaway is "A DISGRACE" and does NOT even solve the problems, just throw a life raft to some insiders!

www.rgemonitor.com... her_a_disgrace_and_rip-off_benefitting_only_the_shareholders_and_unsecured_creditors_of_banks

John hussman's latest article

www.hussmanfunds.com... say's the same thing, so does market ticker karl dennigers's video/ forum/ and blog so does almost every single NON GOVEMERNMENT employed economist, so stop with the naive optomism please, it does nobody any favors in this instance


ALSO steve R this bailout does not address the core problems on the crisis, this is not going to solve any "Inevitable depression" either,

[edit on 28-9-2008 by cpdaman]

Originally posted by cpdaman

Originally posted by Blaine91555

We will clearly get most of this money back in the future and possibly a profit before it is over.

you are clearly naive or ignorant on this point

Clearly getting most of the money back in the future? Gee no other investor is willing to buy a portion of this crap sandwich for a reason, there will be no profit made from this , get real. Also the gov't will surely OVER pay for this crap, otherwise no bank would come to the table!

I'll echo that sentiment.

The people in power are counting on guppies like Blaine to eat up this bailout hook, line and sinker.

They've been hoodwinking the masses for millenia. People just aren't getting any smarter are they.

Originally posted by Sheridan
reply to post by SteveR

 

You really that brainwashed or you're working for the government.

Now, here is the deal. The banks caused this, so no one should bail them out at all. They caused all the problem, they should sink in the drain. The banks are causing this all over the world, because they're greedy.

Believe me, the world would be a much better place without any sort of Zionist Banks. We don't need banks. We don't need Zionists. To hell with both of them. If they don't want to go, we will send them to there.

Let the banks and financial institutions fail and you can say goodbye to your house, your job, your white-picket fence, your life; any form of leisure or hobby... and your children, because they might just die of starvation.

[edit on 29-9-2008 by cognoscente]

Originally posted by SteveR
The government's main priority is keeping the economy functioning. Only a fool would begrudge that.

Only a fool would advocate continuing to prop up a farce of an economy that is trying like hell to correct itself. Only a fool would advocate prolonging this disaster with a bailout that will compound the issue 10x over. Only a fool would trust in the government to keep the economy functioning. Only a fool would respond to your foolish post. Whoops...

reply to post by Techsnow


Its high time to sit back and watch these fat cats crash and burn. They don't care when young American families are struggling to make ends meet. So, even though Congress will eventually pass something to bail their sorry tails out, it is the dawn of a new day. Change is coming whether you like it or not- alot of the older generation will "not". Too bad it's already started.

Getting ready to make up signs to hold it on the corners and beg for money.

The market hasn't hit rock bottom yet. I will in the coming months. Every business will be affected even more everyday, until they crumble.

The strong remaining companies will eventually feel the effect, and go down under. Every sector will have a bunch of unemployed people.

People fail to see that even if the lenders who didn't take part of the subprime mortgage will eventually go down crashing because just about everyone homes is now upside down due to the bad mortgage effect. People will eventually stop paying their mortgage all together if not yet because it is pointless to pay for a home that upside down.

People don't understand what it takes to run a company, when u are up u make good money, but when u are down, u r eating sh1t because of all the cost it takes to run a company u become in the negatives.

The only way the market will work itself out is to go into a complete depression, it is only then that it can't get any worst, besides up. Possibly the return of the barter system.

Good luck mates. We all need it.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by amfirst]

a four point plan to really fix our economy....

Overhaul needed

What would it take to fix the system? A bail-out of banks?

No, what is required is an overhaul of the whole economic system; a system-wide fix.

* That means, first, dumping the orthodox free market zealots responsible for the policies that got us into this mess. Frederick Hayek's and Milton Friedman's deregulation policies have already been discredited, with Republicans obliged to disown Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan's contempt for government.

* Second, it will be vital to restore to the Federal Reserve and other central banks the power to set the rate of interest - across the whole spectrum of lending - so that all rates can be lowered on the massive debts incurred across the board in countries that followed the Anglo-American economic model.

* Third, we must abandon the policy of holding down wages and other forms of compensation, especially if we want people to repay debts, and help salvage the banks. Jobs will have to be protected, or even created by government, and incomes must rise.

* Fourth, we have to simply write off the debts of those poor people who cannot ever repay. Just as we write off the debts of companies or governments that can no longer pay, so we must recognise that many citizens are effectively insolvent. The refusal to acknowledge this truth lies at the heart of Mr Paulson's plan - and that is why his plan will fail.

Only a system-wide fix of economic policies will help restore stability to the Anglo-American economies. But with orthodox economists like Mr Paulson and Fed chairman Ben Bernanke still at the helm - expect Anglo-American economies to keep lurching down the long road to Depression.

news.bbc.co.uk...

viewing the world on my side of the tracks, well...it seems this little journalist has a better grasp as to what is really going on than the people in washington who want to give $700 billion to a bunch of rich bankers....which if you read the article, you can see what they've been doing with thier riches is driving up the values (costs) of our homes and everything else....for their profit of course.

The Economy needs to let go of its dead-weights. And I'm glad this bill didn't go through.

We might have a bad time in economical terms, and some social problems (world-wide, indeed, not only in America, even if the US is the first to suffer), but we need to build a new economical system, with currencies backed by Gold and/or Silver, with TRUE market value.

First step: take down the Federal Reserve and similar private central banks.

Originally posted by cognoscente

Originally posted by Sheridan
reply to post by SteveR

 

You really that brainwashed or you're working for the government.

Now, here is the deal. The banks caused this, so no one should bail them out at all. They caused all the problem, they should sink in the drain. The banks are causing this all over the world, because they're greedy.

Believe me, the world would be a much better place without any sort of Zionist Banks. We don't need banks. We don't need Zionists. To hell with both of them. If they don't want to go, we will send them to there.

Let the banks and financial institutions fail and you can say goodbye to your house, your job, your white-picket fence, your life; any form of leisure or hobby... and your children, because they might just die of starvation.

[edit on 29-9-2008 by cognoscente]

oh....look at that....my house has packed it's bags and is walking down the highway!! bye, bye house!!!

let's look at things in a more realistic way...
I might get my house put into foreclosure.
I might have to move, oh my, I might have to rent.
some bank or investment firm will have a empty house to deal with, hey, maybe I won't have to move. maybe they'll rent it to me? but, well, I am pretty sure they will either rent it out, or sell it, but someone will be living in it since it being empty is making them absolutely no money.
the house isn't going anywhere though, it's too big, too bulky, and well, actually moving the house itself would probably cost as much as we owe on it!
now, that's the normal proceedure I believe with foreclosed properties....
someone else moves into the house, probably someone who had enough sense not to play (and lose) the credit game.
now, let's throw into the scheme of the government obtaining these notes...
they use them to repay their debts to china and the arabs and whoever else we've been borrowing from the past couple decades. the fund the relocation of all their unwanteds into this country, house included....
foreigners now own the house....
which one would you prefer?

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by EtSolveMundi
We would rather purge these entities from the system and rebuild a better system

In the meantime you will starve to death and functioning government will no longer exist.

The entire country will be in a state of savage anarchy where a 'job' and a 'store' is nothing more than a memory.

That is where you are wrong. YOU may starve! There are MANY of "US" across this country that WILL NOT starve and we WILL survive.

functioning government? hmm...now there's a novel idea!

Let the failing banks fail. Give the bailout to new banks, which have not gambled our country's stability and prosperity to line their own pockets. Let THOSE banks keep the credit flowing. Take the money for this bailout from the billionaires and the hundred-millionaires, not the middle class tax payers. Why do I think they should foot the bill? Because nobody "earns" that much money in a lifetime. The only way to get that much wealth is to con it out of everyone else.

Is that a socialist way of thinking? Maybe a little bit. But not all the way - I believe somebody should be allowed to establish wealth. There's just a line that needs to be drawn, for the good of everyone.

Originally posted by dawnstar

* Fourth, we have to simply write off the debts of those poor people who cannot ever repay. Just as we write off the debts of companies or governments that can no longer pay, so we must recognise that many citizens are effectively insolvent. The refusal to acknowledge this truth lies at the heart of Mr Paulson's plan - and that is why his plan will fail.

Very wise words.

Something to consider is that five years ago, the bankers went to congress and demanded that they make big changes to the bankruptcy laws making it MUCH MUCH harder to wash away your debts. What did Congress do? Congress changed the laws.
I would have never seen that coming.

The bankers want us to foot the bill now that their panties are in a twist. They made sure that the people had no life line, so I say they get no life line either. The bankers, Paulson, Bernacke, and anyone else who wants this bailout to go through can eat my shorts. They can also choke on the Amero.

xmibx

reply to post by SteveR


Pray forgive my candour, but as one whom is designated a 'scholar', you make a very non-scholastic point...bordering on the bleeding obvious. Of course, societies have been moulded over the decades into fragile interconnections, whereby one connection breaks, it is possible that others follow as they try to bear the strain of the first, as well as their own. Financial institutions, conveying through their computer systems a most desired commodity, are edifices of the most insidious corruption, breeding grounds of pig-snouted suits up to their ears in a quagmire of asinine dealings. They knew it, they were very much aware of it, and they knew what the consequences would be when the links started to fail.

They are not sorry for the nation, nor for the consequences that may well befall us all, they are sorry only for themselves, and are seeking any contemptous way by which they can relieve themselves of the impoverishing burden that they themselves created. It is a sign of their gregariousness, that they want us all to bear the fruits of their criminal dealings. Through higher taxation, we will all not only be able to pay for the consequence of their financial gorgings, but we will be able to pay for it to continue. I'm sorry, as hard it may well be, the buck needs to stop at their feet. Not one single penny should be paid towards any reparation of an corrupt economy. It needs to fail, it needs to be prosecuted against, and it needs to be rebuilt for an equal distribution of the country's wealth to all the nation.

By equal distribution, I do not mean personal savings, but an social infrastructure that caters to genuine social needs and welfare; better education and better access to it; better health institutions that actually cater to health and make it easily more affordable for everyone. Better pension provision, safeguarded against illegal use and gambling with by total strangers who are not accountable for losing it.

You need to abolish the Fed! While this is in place, America will not be free of debt, it will not have a currency of a value it could be if it were not controlled by private banking institutions. Hell! the dollar isn't even America's, it's loaned to you at interest! What an obscenity! To seek vindication of how corrupt the system is would require the prosecution of thousands in the banking industry, tied to politicians, lobbyists...it runs that deep, the net is not fine enough nor big enough to capture all those whose snouts are tainted with their selfish greed.

No doubt, something of a package will occur, some will be scapegoated, but the public's confidence has been shattered, it has been run through the wringer too many times...change has to occur...the financial institutions cannot remain in charge of the public's money, corruption has to be stamped out and regulated against, even unto the politicians.

So, what you consider to be whinging and whining, is actually bona-fide protestation at ingrained and inculcated corruption which has been allowed to become a way of life, a traditional acceptance that that is the way things run. Well, I say it is time to not let such a life continue, it is time to become untraditional, to not accept the obsecenity to go on. It is past its sell-by-date, and needs to be removed utterly from all walks of life. It should not be able to taint society with its stink any longer. Let the trapdoor to hell open up under their feet...and let them fall!