Originally posted by Reheat
The "truther" John Farmer has posted a Utube video of a mix of Reagan National TRACON Radar and the ATC Communications proving yet again the 84th RADES data is correct. The AA77 flight path and the C-130 flight path are in accordance with what the 9/11 Commission concluded.

CIT's nonsense is "blown out of the water" again.

Indeed it does. Specifically, among many other elements of this issue it confirms, it reconfirms yet again the Camp Springs 1 departure that Captain Bob and his boys don't seem to understand. This is at least the 9th piece of hard evidence that establishes the Camp Springs departure - this video, the RADES data, the transcripts/recordings from ATC, the testimony from the crew of Gopher 06, their filed flight plan, the published departure procedures, the weather and wind requirements that day that called for a Camp Springs departure, discussions I had with navy aircrew who routinely fly out of Andrews and discussions I had with flight planning personnel at Navy Andrews operations.

For Captain Bob and his CIT buddies to stick to their idea that the C-130 was vectored along the ragged edge of the southern border of P-56 would mean every one of those above pieces of hard evidence would have to be proven false or manipulated or exposed as lies or worse. As bad as Captain Bob and his league of extraordinary Sky Kings are, I doubt they'd go that far.

But then again.....

On edit: And I neglected to mention, while not prima facie evidence of a Camp Springs departure, the published NOTAMS calling for a ground-stop of all aircraft were issued after Gopher 06 took off, regardless if it applied to military aircraft from a military field or not. This fact removes any doubt that the C-130 was launched for some shadowy or clandestine reason.

[edit on 26-9-2008 by pinch]

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
Prove he is a "professional".

I can't. But what I CAN prove is that he is far more knowledgeable regarding FDR's and RADES data than you.

Did you know he has now officially agreed that the NoC flight path IS possible?

Can't tell you what Reheat meant. Let's wait for him to respond. I will refrain from speaking for him.

What is there to dispute?

He believes the north side flight path is possible and this is what all the witnesses unanimously support!

again...allow me to U2U him. I would like him to clarify this.

All BUT. Exactly.

Everyone knows why. You don't DARE flat out accuse him.

The evidence proves the plane was nowhere near that pole and his story is physically impossible.

His evidence contradicts your other witnesses. It is not physically impossible. His statements are also backed with physical evidence. (broken windshield, light pole in the street) Oh... and please spare me the photos. I have seen them.

Believe me we would LOVE to talk to any of these guys.

Let me know if you can find out who any of them are.

you have the license plate of a firefighter from Virginia. Your "ruthless" investigation skills have not allowed you to find him?

What's more logical....mass hallucination or mass deception?

What seems more logical... 3- 6 years later not placing an airplane in the exact location you remember....

Or

Forgetting a massive airplane slamming into a building?

Huh?

No "professionals" have said that!

the flight paths you have shown by witnesses are either not possible or would require banking that was not witnessed.

Really?

I challenge you to a recorded phone debate.

Is tonight good for you?

Craig, it's Friday night. I will be out with a woman...on a date. Sorry I wont be around.

If you would like to talk about the evidence found inside and around the Pentagon, go for it. I will be more than happy to respond here. Exponent has however said that he would debate anyone here (moderated)

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT


Did you know he has now officially agreed that the NoC flight path IS possible?

Nice attempt at quote mining.

Exponents' example posted earlier is just an example. He only used two of the witnesses to show the ONLY possible flight path that could be flown North of the Citgo Station. Even it shows high bank angles and high G that NO ONE DESCRIBED. However, when all of the witnesses are put together and multiple flight paths at varying speeds are attempted they ALL FAIL.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

1. Robert Turcios saw it "pull up".

Robert Turcios: “It went in a direct line into the Pentagon—it collided."

2. Maria De La Cerda thought it hit "on top".

Maria De La Cerda never even saw the aircraft: "And I looked, I looked directly up for it, and I also had some tree cover, so I wasn't able to see, but I was facing the Pentagon and I saw something really fast going to the Pentagon with the swoosh and I'll never forget it, it was so fast, and then a huge fireball explosion and smoke, and they said there was a huge sound, but I don't recall, I just remember it was being just it was like a clap, and I just remember it being so fast, and I screamed, no, or oh my God..."

She never even saw the aircraft, and why you put her in this as "eyewitness evidence" of a north of the service station is evidence of your dishonesty.

Roosevelt Roberts Jr. saw it banking around and flying away from the building immediately AFTER the explosion.

You really don't want to hang your military-did-it hat on Roberts. Seriously, dude. A ton of people have tried to tell you this before, but you just don't seem to listen.

Brooks: The Plane flew in a “straight line towards the Pentagon,” went “directly in front of the building,” until the “impact”.

Lagasse: It “flew into the building,” and “when the plane hit, it kind of disappeared.”

Boger: ""I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building.."

Walter: "Then I picked it up as it struck very low into the Pentagon. The wings folded back and it was like watching someone slam an empty aluminum can into a wall. The jet folded up like an accordion. There was a huge fireball.

Morin: "One to two seconds later the airliner came into my field of view. By that time the noise was absolutely deafening. I instantly had a very bad feeling about this but things were happening very quickly. The aircraft was essentially right over the top of me and the outer portion of the FOB (flight path parallel the outer edge of the FOB). Everything was shaking and vibrating, including the ground. I estimate that the aircraft was no more than 100 feet above me (30 to 50 feet above the FOB) in a slight nose down attitude. The plane had a silver body with red and blue stripes down the fuselage. I believed at the time that it belonged to American Airlines, but I couldn’t be sure. It looked like a 737 and I so reported to authorities.

Within seconds the plane cleared the 8th Wing of BMDO and was heading directly towards the Pentagon. Engines were at a steady high-pitched whine, indicating to me that the throttles were steady and full. I estimated the aircraft speed at between 350 and 400 knots. The flight path appeared to be deliberate, smooth, and controlled. As the aircraft approached the Pentagon, I saw a minor flash (later found out that the aircraft had sheared off a portion of a highway light pole down on Hwy 110). As the aircraft flew ever lower I started to lose sight of the actual airframe as a row of trees to the Northeast of the FOB blocked my view. I could now only see the tail of the aircraft. I believe I saw the tail dip slightly to the right indicating a minor turn in that direction. The tail was barely visible when I saw the flash and subsequent fireball rise approximately 200 feet above the Pentagon."

If the aircraft was north of the Citgo, he could never have seen the tail as long as he did

and he never could have seen the "minor flash" that he did

and he never could have seen the "tail dip slightly" as he did

and he never could have known when it cleared the 8th wing of the FOB (BMDO).

Morin wouldn't have been able to see *anything* after it passed over his head, especially if he was in the location you place him.

Try to stay away from selective quoting. It sucks.

[edit on 27-9-2008 by pinch]

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

He agrees that it IS possible for a plane to bank north of the citgo!

Why are you quote mining? Not that I should be surprised.

Funny how now he has to rely on the witnesses again since now he has acknowledged that the MATH proves the flight path IS possible!

There are not any witnesses that suggest that sigificant bank.

i LOVE you talking about Walter... what was the last part of it Ranke?

...."it basically nose dived INTO THE PENTAGON!"

Oh wait... he was tricked too!!! THAT'S RIGHT.

once again ALL of your witnesses that were in a position to see the impact... SAW THE PLANE HIT THE PENTAGON!

I didn't think you would have enough courage to debate me.

No, I went out to have dinner tonight. Try stepping out of your fantasy world some time. Life is good.

We can do it tomorrow or the next day if that's better for you.

What is wrong with pointing out facts here? Is this what finding the truth is to you Ranke? Pwning someone on the phone?

No reason for me to debate exponent since he also agrees that the NoC banking flight path as reported by the witnesses is possible.

I didn't think you'd have the courage to debate anyone with knowledge of aviation. (which I clearly do not)








[edit on 9/26/0808 by ThroatYogurt]

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
I didn't think you'd have the courage to debate anyone with knowledge of aviation. (which I clearly do not)

Which is funny - given Captain Bob's obvious dislike for anyone who does not have *his* level of aeronautical acumen, you have to wonder why he and the CIT boys are so tight. You would expect Captain Bob to heap derision and disdain on CIT's head for their injecting themselves into an event so heavily based in aviation with their obvious lack of knowledge in things aerodynamic.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
John Farmer, the one who put together this completely inconclusive video that does not even remotely contradict what we report, has already declared the Radar data, the NTSB data, AND the security video ALL MANIPULATED!

Farmer is investigating, he makes a thesis, and then he studies the problem, and solves the issues. Then Farmer changes his thesis.

Using an outdated stance is now quote mining his old thesis. This is what you do with your witnesses and ignore them pointing to the south path, as you say "north side", "north side".

Farmer is learning, and solving his issues one by one which refute your conclusions you never change. Farmer changes his conclusion based on his first ideas, then learns the disciplines and forms a new conclusion.

So if farmer said the earth was flat, he would not settle for saying it, he would learn the disciplines to prove it, and thus discover the earth is not flat.

Farmer does not change his mind, he learns new disciplines and changes his conclusions.

Farmer would see the paths drawn and understand they impossible due to RADAR data, FDR data, and physics. He would listen and look to see your witness point to the south path, he would see the false paths, and solve it with a discipline.

His work continues to refute your conclusion one at a time as he becomes an expert in each new field, albeit he is a new expert and misses things like DME antenna masking in a turn, especially when Hani over banked once, to 41.8 degrees (when the C-130 saw him, confirmed on the FDR! This is funny because all the things you say are false dovetail to RADAR and witnesses to form a solid evidence, as Farmer is proving to himself) causing the DME to wander, but he is outstanding he is getting deep into many fields and learning.

Farmer is doing real work to find the truth not support his ideas, to TEST his ideas, proposed conclusions, and he is refuting your conclusion you have interpreted witness statements to support. Farmer has evidence you have quote mined interviews; you just proved it by using Farmer's old stuff.

Johndoex said the Camp Springs was not used, that is not true. It is designed to get traffic over the arrivals. Farmer proves it, and the C-130 pilot proves it. South of the mall going west.

On the Camp Springs Departure at 3000 feet heading exactly west (magnetic), this is south of the Mall, see the mall; flying is great, the C-130 has big windows, the Mall fills them up.

Farmer is still looking at the RADES data, so he got all the possible RADAR data from other sites to verify things. This other data proves the south path impossible, you need 14 Gs to get to Middleton's flight path from the multiple south path RADAR returns.

I'd like to post and apologise to Reheat and Beachnut. Craig is now taking responses to my scenario out of context in order to claim that you two have accepted his flight path is possible.

Craig, as I have repeatedly explained, my flight path ignores many critical elements and requires a severe rightward bank at all points in the plotted course.

There is no getting around this, you cannot say "aha it's possible" and then go on to quote witnesses which do not describe a plane in a radical (45 degree+) rightward bank. If we ignore all but 2 of your witnesses, one of whom watched the plane impact the pentagon from 100-200ft away then we can construct a plausible flight path.

However, this flight path needs some verification by determining the speed of the aircraft and as a result, the aerodynamic forces experienced. You and JDX have both refused to even speculate on this, despite your constant posting of eyewitness accounts, including those north of the plane who are supposed to accurately place its ground position without having any usable reference.

I would hope that any third party reading this notes that I do not support Craig's theory, and feel that he has a lot to explain before it can be considered a potential explanation.