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The cross a false idol???

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posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by heliosprime

Originally posted by ScienceDada
And even the prophets, like Isaiah, declared that the feasts and fasts were abominable to God. Why was that?


Please provide proof of this "statement"............

The cross is a false idol, as are most roman catholic "ideas" of worship.


Then what is a "true" idol?

Proof... from Isaiah

"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.



Yet they seek Me day by day and delight to know My ways, As a nation that has done righteousness and has not forsaken the ordinance of their God. They ask Me for just decisions, They delight in the nearness of God. 'Why have we fasted and You do not see? Why have we humbled ourselves and You do not notice?' Behold, on the day of your fast you find your desire, And drive hard all your workers. Behold, you fast for contention and strife and to strike with a wicked fist. You do not fast like you do today to make your voice heard on high. Is it a fast like this which I choose, a day for a man to humble himself? Is it for bowing one's head like a reed And for spreading out sackcloth and ashes as a bed? Will you call this a fast, even an acceptable day to the LORD? Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry And bring the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?




posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by ScienceDada

Originally posted by pureevil81
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


no he never claimed to be god, i think you need to also point out that is your opinion, as my opinion is jesus was not god. nor claimed to be.

not trying to attack you here, it just seems every post i read of yours, you strongly promote your opinion as correct.


Jesus did claim to be God. You just fail to see the significance of the text because it is removed from your everyday experience. His assertion "before Abraham was I am" was a very powerful statement, and they took up stones to kill him for blasphemy.

There were other places where he says it rather clearly too.


Remember, in the Greek text, Jesus also said that when He walked on water:

"Have no fear, I AM."



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by heliosprime

Originally posted by ScienceDada
And even the prophets, like Isaiah, declared that the feasts and fasts were abominable to God. Why was that?


Please provide proof of this "statement"............

The cross is a false idol, as are most roman catholic "ideas" of worship.


No, you're wrong. What you should say is 'the cross can be a false idol".

It takes the act of "worship" to make something an idol. I have never met someone who worshiped a cross. Something that holds a special place in ones heart is not an idol, nor does that mean a person worships it.

I love the cross and what it represents, however, I don't worship it, I don't bow down to it, I don't pray to it, nor do I believe it to have a SHRED of divinity within it.

It's a symbol of our victory over sin.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 09:21 AM
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I made a good point and it wasn't addressed. How does one reconcile the messianic prophecy that He would come before the 2nd temple was destroyed??

Hello, is this thing on?




posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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try this as an eye opener

this is from strongs concordance

5516. chi xi stigma khee xee stig'-ma the 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th), used as numbers; denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral:--six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 13:18 KJV

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

5516 here represents the six

david



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by drevill
try this as an eye opener

this is from strongs concordance

5516. chi xi stigma khee xee stig'-ma the 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th), used as numbers; denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral:--six hundred threescore and six.


How does the relate to the thread?



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 





Who is worshiping/praying to a cross? I've never seen anyone pray to a cross, worship a cross, or have I ever heard someone say that a cross is divine.


Some Christians do.My dad went to a school run by nuns and he and others were told to pray at the foot of a cross or the Virgin Mary.It was similar at my catholic school,i was always getting into trouble and they tried to make me pray to Mary for forgiveness.

I don't know if its a widespread thing or not,but it happens.






Of course it doesn't represent a victory over death, and I never claimed that.



I said to justmomma that some see the crucifixion as a symbol of Christs victory over death,and quiered whether that was what you meant.





Unless you meant Catholic. Christians bow down to no graven image, Christians pray to no one other than God, and Christians worship nothing other than the Lord our God.



Some worship the Virgin Mary,some worship the saints,the apostles and,as the OP mentions,some worship the cross.The Catholic Church teaches that God can be reached not just through Jesus but by those i've mentioned.They've turned these people into idols.





Jesus claimed He was God numerous times.


No he never.He made it clear that he was the son and that he was not to be worshiped.











[edit on 27-9-2008 by jakyll]



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by 4x4fun
 


Unless you meant Catholic. Christians bow down to no graven image, Christians pray to no one other than God, and Christians worship nothing other than the Lord our God.



i know alot of christians that pray to jesus, that alone goes to show this statement incorrect. unless you say jesus is god, which some of those same christians believe to be true, not all but some.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by 4x4fun
 





I was led to bypass the Torah/Old Testament and go straight to the New Testament, and like many others, I called myself a Christian.


Yeah,i'm still amazed at how many Christians haven't even read all the bible,mainly because they follow the leaders.I think that whatever faith you're apart of,the least you can do is read the scriptures!





Since I began this process, I feel better than I ever have before, I'm happier than I've ever been before, I make more money than I ever did before, and I'm more successfull than I ever though I would be.


Come on,admit it,you've become a Satanist haven't you

Just teasing.





It wasn't easy, but today, I am 100% guilt free.


Congratualtion's

I state many of us strive for yet fail to get to.






I think it all had to do with the fact that my eyes have been open and have stopped worshipping Idols and have now focused my attention to God.


As the saying goes;people are leaving the church and are going back to God
No wonder those in charge are scared! lol.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Who is worshiping/praying to a cross? I've never seen anyone pray to a cross, worship a cross, or have I ever heard someone say that a cross is divine.

Some Christians do.My dad went to a school run by nuns and he and others were told to pray at the foot of a cross or the Virgin Mary.It was similar at my catholic school,i was always getting into trouble and they tried to make me pray to Mary for forgiveness.


If it were idolatry to make an image then how come Moses was inconsistent with this rule? This are images of "things above" which are forbidden according to the commandments (Exodus 20:4-5; Deuteronomy 5:8-9):

* The tabernacle was ornate with images of angels (Exodus 26:1)
* The people carried the Ark in procession (which is worship) which had 2 angels about the mercy seat (Exodus 25:18)
* Moses makes a Bronze serpent and puts it on a pole (Numbers 21:8). This was not an unholy graven image until the Israelites turned it into an idol of a pagan god which they named Nehushtan (2 Kings 18:4). In fact, Christ points to this as foreshadowing Himself (John 3:14)

With respect to prostration:
* Joshua falls down prostrate before the commander of the Lord's army (Joshua 5:14-15). Is this worship?

So then, at what point does an image become unholy or an idol? Or is it a heart issue, and the image itself is not important? Or is there a difference between a "true image" and a "false image"?



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by ScienceDada
 


err it may have something to do with the title, the cross as a false Idol??

many Christians use it when they shoudn't be. Idols in general in the bible are from pagan beliefs, ergo against Gods commandments



david

edited to remove sarccy comment

[edit on 27-9-2008 by drevill]



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by ScienceDada
 





So then, at what point does an image become unholy or an idol? Or is it a heart issue, and the image itself is not important? Or is there a difference between a "true image" and a "false image"?


I'd say when you cross the line from showing due respect and reverence into worship.

The Virgin Mary cannot forgive sins,but many Catholics believe she can and pray to her so that she may do so.

Prostration is a sign of respect,not just worship.


As for your questions about graven images,i've asked those too and have never got a straight answer.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by paxnatus

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalWhere some see a 'symbol of death' others see a symbol of VICTORY


So, the cross, what brought death to him is a sign of victory? or was it that he showed something through death? If it is the latter, then it would seem ironic that christians wear the symbol of death rather than the symbol of life.. not sure what you could adopt as the symbol of life, but lets face it, the cross means one thing and that is death.


No, i believe you are missing the point. The cross is a symbol to remind us of what Christ did for us. All of us, not just the select few but every single human being on the planet. He died for our sins so that whosoever
believeth in Him will have eternal life. He paid the ultimate debt for all mankind so that you will not have to. A cross is a reminder to cast your
burdens upon Him who died on that cross, descended into hell, came back to earth, ascended into heaven. Therefore the victory is in the resurrection.

thank you about time someone out clearly and from the book

great post

[edit on 27-9-2008 by paxnatus]



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by 4x4fun
 


thanks I will research with an open mind



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by bugs_n_recovery
Let me start by saying i do believe in god and consider mydelf a Christian.
That doesnt meen that I dont think or wonder or research all the time.
One of the things that has always worried me is that in the old testament it says do not worship false gods or idols. Now to play it safe(Im a pesimist) Ive often thought that the jews were the hight percentage of going to heaven lol (Your saying :::Christian huh)!!! but of all believers in God Islam, catholics/Christians , the Jews follow the "original" text the most seriously and correctly
so what if "Jesus" was not who he says he was, then Christians and believers of the cross(around my neck right now) have violated one of the biggest no no"s of gods laws..


...I apologize for not reading anyone elses comments. But I have been on enough of these threads that if I start reading them I will want to respond to half of them.
So to the point......we don't worship the cross. I wear one and I have a cross tatoo. It is a reminder. It is a symbol. If I knew what Jesus looked like than maybe I would have him tatooed on me instead but we don't.
....I don't worship the flag of the United States either. But it represents something to me, despite our government. It represents what is good about our Country and most of the people in it. I wear a Vikings jersey on Sunday's, not because I own the team or ever played for them or even know who the players are...they come and go anyways. But it represents MY Minnesota Vikings. My Team. I don't worship them obviously! They are the team that I have chosen to support and telling the whole world that I do.
Symbols. Thats all they are. They tell people something about yourself. They remind you of who you are, they help solidify your identity.
Don't ever feel guilty about wearing a cross. Don't ever forget who died on it.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by ScienceDada
 



I'd say when you cross the line from showing due respect and reverence into worship.

The Virgin Mary cannot forgive sins,but many Catholics believe she can and pray to her so that she may do so.

Prostration is a sign of respect,not just worship.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....Arghghghg.....I did it, I didn't mean to, but I read a post on the thread so now I have to respond.....

NO CATHOLIC that knows anything, thinks that the Virgin Mary can forgive sins! I'm sorry for those, probably in hispanic country's that think this. But it just isn't a belief by educated and informed American Catholics. We get hammered with so much of this kind of untruths or maybe outdated practices. Just like paying before hand for sins that you plan on commiting.
Also, you can prostrate yourself for a king if you want or some other worldy leader but you don't do that with Jesus or God. They are your friends or your father if you prefer. My kids don't prostrate to me and it would be silly for them to do. God, Jesus, wants our love not some peasant mentality, not fear. It is cowardly. Haven't you watch enough movies where these sychophants do all their prostrating and if someone more powerful takes over then they go groveling to them. The hell is that?
God and Christ are my friends and I would stand straight up and look them in the eyes, no fear. They also would always have my loyalty because it is out of love not duty nor obligation, nor fear. I feel so sorry for all of those that fear death so much that they believe in God in order to save them from it. Cowards.
So little understand of love is perhaps the saddest thing and ultimately it is why so many people believe so many different things and why we have so many different religions. They just don't understand love.











posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by Res Ipsa
....I don't worship the flag of the United States either.

The flag analogy is probably the best example. Thank you for that input.

I will add that if one goes beyond that, it does become idolatry. The same can be said of the scriptures. Protestants don't have a problem with "worshiping" the Bible, and it really is no different. They get up at arms if it is called worship, and vehemently deny it, only to turn around and make the same counter-claims toward the cross or icons.

So, to drive the point home... the Bible, the cross, or an icon can all become idols, just as the brass serpent did for Israel. But in the proper context, they are not.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by ScienceDada
 
err it may have something to do with the title, the cross as a false Idol?


Then what is a "true" idol? You didn't answer the question.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by Res Ipsa
 





NO CATHOLIC that knows anything, thinks that the Virgin Mary can forgive sins! I'm sorry for those, probably in hispanic country's that think this. But it just isn't a belief by educated and informed American Catholics. We get hammered with so much of this kind of untruths or maybe outdated practices.


Well,i'm from England and i'm only 30yrs old.So does 15yrs make a practice outdated??

And i have come across Catholics who believe this,some right here on ATS,but that doesn't mean its the norm it just means that it happens,and in America too.



posted on Sep, 27 2008 @ 07:38 PM
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.....dang it, I'm sucked in!!!!!!!

Protestants and Bible "worship".......leave out the Lutheran's then! Because we don't worship the Bible, that is insane!

Catholics........hey if some ignorant people believe that Mary can forgive sins then what do you want me to say. They don't know their religion!

I hear people all the time say that they are "Roman Catholics" like they know the difference or something.

Do you know how many people don't understand their religion? I'm telling you that.....the Roman Catholic Church in America does not believe nor tell us that Mary can forgive sins. That we should pray to her to get to Jesus. I don't know how to make that any clearer but if you want to listen to your ignorant friends than fine. Let me know when a Jesuit Priest tells you this.....In fact....why don't you stop by your neighborhood Catholic Church and ask him.....Try to find one that has heard about Vatican II !!!!

Back to Lutheran's.....worshipping the Bible......what does that mean to you? Who worships the Bible? Do you know what worship means?



[edit on 27-9-2008 by Res Ipsa]



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