Trickle-Down Economics is a BiG FaT JoKe!, page 2

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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You clearly have issues.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But it's clear you only want to make it personal. You started right away by putting words in my mouth, attributing opinions to me that don't exist and then you say I'm "disagreeable" when I defend myself. I'm on to you, Loam. I don't need this.

I'm calling you out! Show me where I made this personal?

You didn't defend yourself. You insulted those who shared their own opinions in this thread and happened to disagree with you and called that a waste of time.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
...You started right away by putting words in my mouth, attributing opinions to me that don't exist...I never said greed was inherent in wealthy people.

Lie.

Were these NOT your EXACT words?

...inherent in MOST people who have climbed the economic ladder to corporate CEO (and other top positions) is greed...So, the most corrupt, greedy people end up in the top positions. They keep the money for themselves and their cronies...

Did I force you to write that?

I responded in its entirety with:

This position always confuses me when people assert it. Why is it viewed that most are motivated by "greed" as opposed to a simple ambition to control one's own circumstances?

Sure, unbridled "greed" MAY come into play for some at the top. But greed can be found ANYWHERE humans may be found, regardless of whether they are at the top or not. Moreover, what does greed really mean to you?

Just curious.

How is that personal? How is that putting words into your mouth? How is that attributing opinions to you?



I'm at a loss to explain your irrational outburst and saddened that it came specifically from you.

I guess I had you figured all wrong.

[edit on 24-9-2008 by loam]

Originally posted by loam
reply to post by tommy_boy

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You confuse fraud, waste and abuse with sound taxation policy-- which essentially means you have no idea what the real problem is.

You're barking up the wrong tree, imo.

I gave you 3 parallels across 3 of the most recent Republican administrations, where the same economic policy was upheld, with the same results. You are either admitting that all 3 were riddled in fraud, waste and abuse, or you just decided not to address the topic at hand.

Also note that the Clinton Administration was not listed in my post mainly because, while implementing a different economic philosophy, that administration sparked one of the strongest periods of economic prosperity in our country's history. You have a large mountain to climb, my friend, if you plan on asserting the glories of Trickle Down Economics in light of so much evidence to the contrary. It is also a stretch for you to believe that I am not clearly aware that there are other variables that account for economic downturns. We can address those topics in another thread if you like.

Also, I don't see any quotes, links, or references in your post that guides me towards bi-partisan assessments that Trickle Down Economics has been anything other unsuccessful, which is what I was hoping the Repubs on this site would post.

Regarding those claiming that socialism would be the alternative

Let's not be intellectually dishonest and jump to extremes! Come on! There isn't one way, and we can be more moderate in our arguments. Also, for those conservatives touting the horrors of socialism, remember please that it is your party that is SOCIALIZING the debt of our current mess to the American tax-payer! The current administration is now the most socialist administration we've had in a while, but only when it benefits big business.

On topic though, the OP was trying to make the point that our current free market economy is not working. My argument is that a system of wealth redistribution would be just as vile, if not much more so.

I was absolutely NOT making that point, nyk537. Laffer Curve Economics is not the measure nor the definition of a free market economy. It is one principle for generating revenue within an economy, and one that, as I have asserted in the opening post, has a record of not working. Interestingly, though, as you are not for wealth redistribution, are you then NOT FOR debt redistribution, which is what the administration is attempting with this trillion dollar bail out?

Originally posted by nyk537
Not everyone just walks into a high paying CEO position. It usually comes from years of dedication and hard work. So in a way, they have earned their position, and thus their money.

I'm not saying they have not earned a reasonable compensation. I am saying the compensation they get is out of all reason.

The average CEO of a large U.S. company made roughly $10.8 million last year, or 364 times that of U.S. full-time and part-time workers, who made an average of $29,544, according to a joint analysis released Wednesday by the liberal Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy.

Source

I say that a CEO-to-Average wage factor of 364 to 1 is excessive, unwarranted, damaging to the economy and to social stability.

You say we need to replace the system. I say we only need replace those who were mismanaging our money.

I actually agree. However, I also say that given the "trickle down" theory, and the indisputable fact that the US economy is a mess and normal wages are stagnant, that a substantial and significant number of CEO types fit the description of "greedy".

I actually think that trickle down could work. But it is painfully clear that it is not working.

This goes back to something I said in another thread, that I think this kind of behavior should be socially shunned, and publicly and frequently scorned. It is the equivalent of picking one's nose at a formal dinner.

reply to post by tommy_boy

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Originally posted by tommy_boy
You are either admitting that all 3 were riddled in fraud, waste and abuse, or you just decided not to address the topic at hand.

I'm not just "admitting" the former, I'm emphatically stating that to be the case.

Originally posted by tommy_boy
Also note that the Clinton Administration was not listed in my post mainly because, while implementing a different economic philosophy, that administration sparked one of the strongest periods of economic prosperity in our country's history.

What different economic philosophy would you be talking about? (Ironically, Clinton governed fiscally more conservatively than most.)

Incidentally, could you articulate Clinton's economic philosophy and how it differs from conservative fiscal policy. I just want to make sure I understand what issues we are discussing. There is a difference between theory and execution. Are we discussing the former or latter?

Originally posted by tommy_boy
Also, I don't see any quotes, links, or references in your post that guides me towards bi-partisan assessments that Trickle Down Economics has been anything other unsuccessful, which is what I was hoping the Repubs on this site would post.

I'll work on this when time permits.

Originally posted by tommy_boy
Regarding those claiming that socialism would be the alternative

Let's not be intellectually dishonest and jump to extremes! Come on! There isn't one way, and we can be more moderate in our arguments.

It is a natural tendency to make that assumption. But, I agree, thus my comment about throwing babies out with the bath water.

Originally posted by tommy_boy
Also, for those conservatives touting the horrors of socialism, remember please that it is your party that is SOCIALIZING the debt of our current mess to the American tax-payer! The current administration is now the most socialist administration we've had in a while, but only when it benefits big business.

On this, we completely agree. I've been calling BOZO on this one for the last eight years.

[edit on 24-9-2008 by loam]

reply to post by loam

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Tommy. bailing out the corporations is not socialism. It is facism.

That said, without a bailout, life as we know it will be different. It will inevitably lead to a completely new economic system, and unfortunately if it happens during this administration the changes will be nothing that anyone will much enjoy. Weve all seen the various predictions here of cancelled elections and martial law.

We need the bailout. Buy the loans, refinance the homeowners to the amount paid, sell them to private investors once they are proven sound. Everyone wins at no cost to the taxpayer. Short of that, let's buy the loans and wait for the next administration to take the next step. The taxpayer won't lose money so don't worry about that.

reply to post by tommy_boy

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Very good post.

Too bad there are so many people out there that don't see this.

reply to post by tommy_boy

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My thoughts on this are simple. When Reagan was in office I had more disposable income than I had ever had before or have had since. Carter left this country in a terrible financial situation and Reagan straightened it out. The first two years of his administration were tough, but when things turned around, I did alright.
Wish I could say that now.

reply to post by mental modulator

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Maybe you need to realized the very people who are voting for income redistribution are wealthy. Do you see Obama giving away the proceeds of his book? He has mad several million? Do you see those bastions to the democratic party, who are constantly voting for entitlements that you pay for, giving away their fortune? Income redistribution is done by taxing my hard earned dollars and giving to people who have never worked a day in their lives. Don't talk to me about my generation dying off, so there can be progress. Instead, tell these lazy bums who expect us to support them to get off their butts and get a job!

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