Chrysler Unveils Secretly Developed Electric Cars

reply to post by saturnsrings


There is a concept that recharges the car as its being driven. It's called regenerative braking. Basically when the brakes are applied each wheel is turned into a turbine to generate electricity. That causes physical resistance that slows down the car, something you want to do when you are pressing the brake and it puts electricity back into the battery. The Toyota Prius does this now. Of course its not efficient enough to completely recharge the battery, but its a way to recoup energy lost during braking and coasting.

reply to post by johnsky


You're forgetting one very important point which pretty much wipes out your math - cost of the vehicles:

Cost of a Tesla Roadster: $109,000 (www.teslamotors.com...)

Cost of a Honda Accord: $19,000 - $25,000

So let's say you get the loaded Honda Accord at $25,000. The difference ($109,000 - $25,000 = $84,000 and that's not including the interest paid on the life of either loan).

So by your figures, driving 6,600 miles per month (a hell of a lot of miles by the way) that's 79,200 miles per year at a cost of $8,584.20 in the Honda Accord.

To make up the difference of $84,000 with the annual cost of gas for the Accord of $8,584.20 (not even including maintenance and repair) you would have to own the Roadster for 9.78 YEARS before it finally becomes worth your while, financially.

And there's something else - right now, these rechargeable batteries that go into the Prius and other hybrids have a life of about 8 years and then they have to be replaced. If you own the car, you get to foot the bill. If you lease the car, that's a different story. The cost for the hybrid battery (I've heard, correct me if I'm wrong) is around $12,000. Tesla hasn't said anything about their batteries and the cost yet, but the recharge factor works on basically the same principals. Also, nothing lasts forever and that battery is going to have to be replaced sometimes and you can bet that you won't find it on the shelf at Auto-Zone. That would add over another year for how long you would need to own the Tesla in order to catch up to the Accord.

Until they can do WAY better with the price, I'll opt for the gasoline Accord, thank you very much, and not have to sacrifice my standard of living. They might lease these cars, but with such a whopping high price tag I doubt it. Do they lease Ferarri's?

You on the other hand, if you bought the Tesla Roadster, might well be sleeping in that $109,000 car, seeing as how the monthly payment, even at 1% interest could well be over $1,500 a month alone! That's more than a mortgage payment for a home in some areas. Hope that car comes with running water and a toilet.



[edit on 24-9-2008 by sos37]

This is what I don't get about electric cars.

If a good amount of people switch over to electric, WHERE IS THE ELECTRICITY GOING TO COME FROM?????

Alot of major cities already have brown outs during the summer, imagine if there were a ton of cars on the grid.

We would have to build more power plants, and they would most likely have to be NUCLEAR which people would fight. Wind isn't advanced enough and communties dont want turbines littering the countryside.

WHERE WOULD ALL THE USED BATTERIES GO. Batteries will eventually need to be replaced. Can they be recycled? It is a fact that cars like the Prius are actually more damaging to the environment then normal cars. The resources and carbon footprint used to build them are greater then construction of normal cars.

Electric cars are a good idea but we dont have the technology in place to make them a viable option.

It is a double edged sword.

reply to post by drock905


I think we have the technology to make it happen, like wind farms and like you pointed out we need more nuclear plants to generate electricity, but a larger problem is that America badly needs to upgrade and improve it's energy grid. If we can generate the electricity, fine, but if we don't improve the infrastructure as well, it won't make a bit of difference. Remember the huge east coast blackblackout of 2003? (www.timboucher.com...)

Then there were the 2006 outages related to the heat wave of that year (en.wikipedia.org...). It's all incredibly fragile.

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen





Battery powered cars are not the way to go.

1. These miles per charge estimates never seem to take into account such things as the operation of heating and cooling systems/multispeaker sound systems/powered accessories/lights. In other words things that the average consumer expects to have in their vehicle which will dramatically reduce operation times.

2. Batteries offer no freedom from centralized energy suppliers as they are the only ones that can charge up your vehicle in a timely fashion. The average 5KW solar array on the average home cannot charge these things. You get out what you put in. If a Tesla has a 185KW powerplant, then you need to put in 185KW to get it going. Run the amperage numbers and you will see that the common household is ill equipt without a full home wiring upgrade to provide charging in a timely fashion. Basically you become a slave to the grid as opposed to the pump.

3. Battery longevity is another problem. Most Lithium ion batteries have a useful life of about 2-3 years. Cell phones and laptops are comparitively low dollar items and are usually replaced in 2-3 years anyway along with the built in battery. Most people keep their vehicles a little longer. A lithium ion battery array for a vehicle will easily cost $7-10,000.

The way to go with vehicles is solar/hydrogen fuel cell+ultracapacitor Why? Because hyrogen can be made at home and stored in metal hydride form. No, you don't need huge tanks and expensive compressors either. Metal hydride storage allows hydrogen to be trickled in using a low wattage PEM electrolyzer and distilled water. With a 50W science project electrolyzer, you can produce and store 230ml of H2 per minute. Doesn't sound like much, but after an hour of operation you would have about 14 liters of H2. In 24 hours you would have 331L and after 3 days you would have nearly 1000L of pure H2 in metal hydride form (which is shippable via airplane and UPS. 1000L of H2 is good enough for about 150+miles of driving. A single 200W solar panel could operate the electrolyzer then the grid could provide the 50W of energy in the evenings. As most people fill up their vehicles every 3 days or so (my estimate) this works out fine.

There is a reason for the Hydrogen holdup. It's not because the technology or infrastructure isn't there. The problem is how to setup the systems so that the consumer is forced to buy it from the energy producers. Thats why you will see things like cogeneration (solid oxide)fuel cells powered by propane/natural gas or direct methanol fuel cells powered by methane. Afterall, the average consumer cannot produce propane/natural gas or methane so they have to buy it. However, they can produce hydrogen all day and the energy producers know it. They will tell you that splitting water is inefficient. To this I say so what. The sun is free during the day so I don't care and the pennies I pay at night for running the equivalent of a 50W light bulb is negligible.

In the end, they are not doing you any favors by making battery powered vehicles. This is just transitioning from one thief (Big Oil) to another (Big Electric). Remember, gas use to be cheap at one time as well. This stuff sounds good at $0.10KWH but will it at $0.50KWH?




[edit on 24-9-2008 by ORIPEIA]

reply to post by ORIPEIA


Starred and applauded if I had that ability so please accept One of the chief problems or switching from oil to electric is that the gov't (state and federal) recieve a huge amount of taxes on each gallon purchased. In Ohio the total for both is around $0.42/gallon. My 15 gallon purchase today was $6.30 of pure tax or think of it as $655/year for one person. How many cars did you see on the road today? 800...that is $524,160/year for just those 800 cars, provided they buy 30 gallons per week. Some buy more, some buy less; but you can start to see where this leads...for example let's keep these numbers and say that the 9174 members that have been on ATS the past 30 day all saw 800 different cars...$4,808,643,840 per year of nothing but taxes...$4.8 billion and we have only mentioned 7,339,200 cars which would be quite a bit less than the 12,021,879 cars registered in Ohio alone in 2007...nevermind the numbers for the rest of the US.

Earlier someone had posted the question of recharging during use and someone else came up with alternater for each wheel. The answer you really meant was generators but I forgive you and say that answer was my first one 5 years ago when I first started thinking about it.

To save you a few years of eureaka moments followed by a dismissal of each idea. The goal you seek is to be able to generate electricity to recharge without adding significant wieght and load on the motor and hence battery drain. That particular problem took me 5 years of on and off thinking to overcome but I believe I have a good solution.

Sorry but I will save that answer for the right buyer but I do encourage you to keep thinking about it as knowing that there is an answer to the question and working towards it may cause you find a good solution different than my own.

Personally I think this is mostly a marketing ploy to prop up a flailing brand. Sure the technology is there, but clearly if the GM Volt is struggling to find a price point under $40K with fewer batteries than either the Jeep or Town and Country versions shown it's hard to imagine either vehicle being affordable in the near term. Chrysler is suffering just like all the other domestic brands and needs to show they're still in the game or loose investor confidence. I think the Dodge looks sharp, but until they can produce it it's vaporware. And if they all cost north of $40K who cares? I probably can't afford one. At least GM has a plan to get the Volt into the hands of the consumers. The thing that baffles me on the Volt is why GM couldn't just leverage the "skateboard" concept behind their hydrogen platform and just bolt on the batteries. Seems like that could have been faster to market, and provide a more flexible base for a whole range of different models.

reply to post by sos37


Add also to that the cost of producing the electricity and the fact that producing it creates more pollutants than a normal car engine would in the first place. The reason these have not been out sooner is nobody could afford them and they don't cut pollution.

In addition to our problems with running on overseas oil, we have the looming problem that no new power generation facilities have been built in many decades due to over regulation. No business is interested in building new plants because of the cost of licensing added on to the many millions defending against lawsuits from financial Eco-terrorist organizations like the Sierra Club and Greenpeace.

One of the next big surprises to hit us will be when we find out that our power generation capabilities do not exist and the grid is ancient. If we start charging our cars, the whole works will collapse.

When you introduce a new form power to our transportation the infrastructure has to be in place first. For instance we have enough Natural Gas to power all our cars no problem. Cars running on LNG have been on the road since the 70's. They are cheaper to drive and the supply is there, but there is no infrastructure in place to fuel them. Any car can be converted and we have enough NG in existing fields to power everything for hundreds of years. Until it is profitable, nobody is going to touch it. Congress has got to streamline the licensing process which takes decades on top of the decades long legal battles. Get ready to learn to do without all due to out of control lobbying and donations by the Greenies. The chickens have come home to roost. We laughed at them while they took over and destroyed us.

Zeich Heil Heir AlGore and Company and thanks for the fish.

FYI - Mr. Gore made a cool 100 million off Carbon Credits. My Hero I don't think his new jet runs on electricity though.

reply to post by sos37


I was using the Tesla Roadster as an example of extreme performance, meaning that other electric vehicles are more efficient.

There are electric vehicles coming out soon that compare very closely with the price of your typical sedan, which are far more efficient than the power house Tesla Roadster.


Anyways, as I mentioned, I used the roadster for the sheer fact that it's intended to be a performance machine, and still out performs economy cars in efficiency. Other electric vehicles are even better.


So no, all this does is prove my math is modest.


I could have, for example, used economy electric vehicles... but I used a powerhouse to make my point.

You know after reading all the posts on this thread with so many great ideas by everyone it got me thinking....Oops sorry it was brought to my attention that I may want to edit this post to protect myself from possible future earnings.



[edit on 9/24/2008 by CaptGizmo]

[edit on 9/24/2008 by CaptGizmo]

reply to post by Ahabstar


Ahabster... Not to say You should share your findings... But that kind of attitude is why we are paying 4.00 A gallon of gas and have no choice but to do so when just a few years ago it was 1.00 A gallon. That is 30 Dollars I wasn't paying before... thats 240 Dollars a month I didn't have to pay. Greed will Ruin you and your part of the world (the world your mind lives in ) I mean not only are big oil companies making record profits!!!! We have to pay them? They shuffled out money a while back when the Government made them be accountable.. but what happened to that? lol. The only way to help the world. Is to help others, and by doing so only helping yourself a little... thats the right way but its no fun for you because your great invention is bettering LIVES around the WORLD, because of a selfless act a couple of million people arent in poverty anymore.. Who cares though. If your not getting more nobody else should make off with a good deal huh. Ill snip myself thats **SNIPPPING** Selfish. To overcome the negative that big companies have done to the U.S. The average inventor has to make huge sacrifices... and the sad part is that most are not willing. Thank you for your post though. It reminds me of why we are in this situation.

Edit to add

CaptGizmo ... pretty selfish of you too mate.

[edit on 24-9-2008 by rjmelter]

reply to post by rjmelter


And Tesla died broke and alone. Today his name, not taught in schools as it should be, is used by a crappy metal band and a car company that builds an electric (DC powered I might add) car far out of the reach of the people that need it most an using technology that Nikola would scoff at as it was nowhere near his electric car. The US Navy did not like his RC boats that he presented to them twice, but the military sure loves those UAV's

Selfish, me? No. Keeping it away from people that would capitolise it or worse remove it from the market completely? Yes. Sure I would like a small royality that might generate a million or so over my lifetime, like a flat $10 per unit.

But if you must know, I am currently working on something a few magnitudes beyond recharging a car while in use. If the idea is sound the prototype would cost about $100-$150 to build and might be able to power say oh a 1500w microwave oven. So a production unit would about $500-$700 and be able to power a house...that one I think would be a freebie to the world kind of significant, especially if I knew I could retire from the royalities of something else and dedicate my days not in a factory making someone else money but to sit around and work out ideas as they come to me. But if that is your idea of selfish, so be it. But know that the price of gas effects me as well since I do 100 miles round trip to work the crappy factory job currently.

You might also go over the figures in an earlier post in this thread where I explain about $4.8 billion per year in taxes is made off just 58% of the registered cars in Ohio alone. So if all 50 states could average those numbers, that would be $240 billion. We could literally pump out that $700 billion bailout bill in three years...And then, if you really want to, I will let you read my letter from the Social Security Administration letting me know that I can expect $508/mo when I retire in 30 years. But do pay close attention to paragraph two where they inform me not to expect any of that to be there then.

Selfish...maybe, but definately not stupid enough to believe that the other 300 million Americans would hide me well enough when some people in DC wants to know what happened to their personal slush fund.

[edit on 24-9-2008 by Ahabstar]

i worked for chrysler dealers for 20 years, i was one of the first 200 dodge viper techs trained to work on them.....hence my handel "viperdave" (yes, i do own one too but hardly drive it!!) so i have followed chrysler for some time and they were working on alternative fueled vehicles for the past 20 years, a few did come into production,(natural gas full sized vans....and flex fueled vehicles) they have been working on electric cars for some time too. because of chryslers desighn and the way the vehicles dont look like other makes in the market, ill bet that when chrysler does come out with a production electric vehicle, it will take off!!! it will probably look awsome and be functional



be safe people

reply to post by viperdave


I remember the first thing I thought when I opened the hood of a viper...

... Imagine the power and mileage you could get out of all this room if you converted this thing to electric!


... I know it's slightly off topic...

reply to post by Ahabstar


Point Taken...

But whats more is that If you have a great Idea... to power a house for around $1000 $400 Euro lol... You first have to go through the patent Office, they of course notify others with the same idea that you have (if any) and if not they tell people such as Oil Companies what your up to. Then these guys typically buy you out for a pretty penny. Create enough inventions and sell out to them youll be looking at around 500+ Million Dollars in your bank account. I doubt ATS will ever see your face again.

Oil companies rule the world because not only do they Sell Fuel, and Oil... but other products... the most important... PLASTIC. Plastic is made from petroleum. There really is no winning.

The way I see if. If you have a great Idea... what you do is you start your own personal company... build for important people (go to Georgia and visit Reynolds Plantation -home of more then 100 millionaires and a few billionaires) Alright you start up your company then you go to big citys like Atlanta, LA, NY, and then you work your way to college towns trying to hook up college students. Either way its a win win. you have Millions of Americans Backing you to help make this world a better place to live in.

Let me kind of paint you another picture though...

Im American born and raised,
I once beleived in an American Dream,
Happiness, Love, Family, my own home, friends, family
no racism no revolution very little greed
A government that supports freedom
a goverment Created by the People and for the people

I have yet to see this happen
We the people do not have a say
If we do have a say we tell our representatives,
they are too busy to listen
I dont have a good life, Im always struggling in this life to achieve the American Dream

Freedom? Whats that? I can go anywhere I want when I want but I have to work my @$$ off to even get a weeks off, when I come back I can forget going anywhere for a year. im 21 years old... pretty much a Kid. But I tell you what I see is a pretty picture Painted to control people... letting them think they have control for a very long time and when they finally try to take control they realize they have none. The country is run by kookes who own oil companies and beleive in owning things but not working for the money they earn. They screw people for their buck. I truely understand how these millionaires work because I just left a job from one. He had a 5 million dollar house, 12 companies. I was the assistant manager of one of them and he would tell me all sorts of things I wanted to hear. I would work my butt off to make things happen for him. The harder I woked the better things were for the company, but when the people wanted something i tried to get it for them and it made me look like the smuck, I tried I tried, he made promises, failed. month by month. In the end I got quit fired. He was illegally holding the Managers check because she went on 3 vacations... mini vacations I would say and I had to work a few overtime hours that he would not pay me for. He was holding her check illegally, I saw it on a stackin some offices... She needed it or she would go in debt So i went to get it for her and made a scene and told him the reasons why... he said it wasn't my business and he was right but shes a push over and I told him he knows that and thats why hes doing it. He called me a liar and said I would need to work harder after the situation I told him to start looking for another employee because I would begin school soon and I didn't need to work in an illegal enviornment. He was doing other illegal thigns also. I thought about having him audited but in this economy 100 people would lose jobs that they desperately needed. And thats whats going on in this world but much much worse. America is a fraud. There is nothing free about it... it all appears free until you try to change how its being ran. Maybe its paranoia ( I do find myself happier when im not constantly returning to ATS) but... Greed is the biggest factor to why the economy i where it is

BUSH made an address today... wll yesterday. Stating that the economic problems were due to this crap or some other crap. It was pure lies. The reason the country is having these problems is because of his war for oil. The greed of all the old men that should retire and quit trying to control every cent that doesn't come there way. The Fathers of the past Generation have screwed the path for the sons of that generation and the upcoming fathers of my generation. Nobody cares. We all have our work cut out for us.

Sorry to say its selfish, but when I see only money making people flaunting ideas I think... its just another bussiness man who is going to become greedy.

These Electric Cars have been working... The government possesses the ability to power each and every home for as little as $1000 for 10-15 Years... they dont want to. Its all about who gets the money.

THe U.S. needs to let the markets crash. Cut out Oil Companies Redesign Congress and the Senate, design a council for every important aspect of our civilization and stay on top of the game... And no single person will remain in power for long periods of time, and they wont get paid much. You have to quit attracting greed and attract only those who really want to do the job. People who are willing to sacrifice everything for the people...

More ranting I know. Im just very dissappointed with the way things are going. My American dream is useless garbage. America is trying to stir up the pot with Russia, Iran, trying to cause the end times because Civilizations population is getting to the breaking point. Their is nothing Civil about the times we are in. Its very disheartening. Seeing these cars come out in the brink of all these disasters is just kinda like a glimmer of hope, a litle faint speck before a large explosion. Just a game. Realizing that each of our soul purpose of existing is to provide for those who made it to the top and wish to remain in a place that they do not earn. Maybe it is a good thing that muslims exist. They feel like taking everyone with them (extremists) maybe Iran does need nuclear power... what good is humanity ... really? We kill each other off, hurt each other, for what? Survival? Mankind has not gotten very from from the Garden of Eden (... just a very good example.. not religious discussion)

reply to post by rjmelter


The first step in fixing a problem is identifing the problem, recognising what it is and then to work towards a solution. You have a very good handle of what is going on and how this world works.

You see the beast for how it is. Now to find your way to fight it. Your refusal to be a part of it shows your conviction. Keep that in mind always throughout your life an you will do well.

Here is a video all about these new "EVs":

My great great great Grandpa was "the" Studebaker, (Moms side) he had the choice to either create electric his first choice or gas operated vehicles. He was convinced to the later because it would create jobs and opportunity for Americans. Yeah right.

Yhis is NOT new technology, just back of the shelf old technology. My Grandpa told me that we would be flying hovercraft by now.

Originally posted by ORIPEIA

The way to go with vehicles is solar/hydrogen fuel cell+ultracapacitor Why? Because hyrogen can be made at home and stored in metal hydride form. No, you don't need huge tanks and expensive compressors either. Metal hydride storage allows hydrogen to be trickled in using a low wattage PEM electrolyzer and distilled water. With a 50W science project electrolyzer, you can produce and store 230ml of H2 per minute. Doesn't sound like much, but after an hour of operation you would have about 14 liters of H2. In 24 hours you would have 331L and after 3 days you would have nearly 1000L of pure H2 in metal hydride form (which is shippable via airplane and UPS. 1000L of H2 is good enough for about 150+miles of driving. A single 200W solar panel could operate the electrolyzer then the grid could provide the 50W of energy in the evenings. As most people fill up their vehicles every 3 days or so (my estimate) this works out fine.

There is a reason for the Hydrogen holdup. It's not because the technology or infrastructure isn't there. The problem is how to setup the systems so that the consumer is forced to buy it from the energy producers. Thats why you will see things like cogeneration (solid oxide)fuel cells powered by propane/natural gas or direct methanol fuel cells powered by methane. Afterall, the average consumer cannot produce propane/natural gas or methane so they have to buy it. However, they can produce hydrogen all day and the energy producers know it. They will tell you that splitting water is inefficient. To this I say so what. The sun is free during the day so I don't care and the pennies I pay at night for running the equivalent of a 50W light bulb is negligible.

[edit on 24-9-2008 by ORIPEIA]

This is a great post and the answer to a lot of things. I don't agree with the need for metal hydride form (liquid hydrogen) but the energy available from hydrogen is very viable and very unprofitable.

It's true, people can produce hydrogen all day themselves for negligible power/electrical sums. For instance, a car battery can power an HHO cell (water electrolysis unit) using the power equivalent of other existing fuses. A fuse is connected to protect the alternator. Low power requirements, lots of HHO (Hydrogen/Oxygen).

Simply put (literally because it is simple), the gas is carried to the combustion chamber via the air intake and ignites along side gasoline. 0.6L per minute is enough to give the average sedan a 50% increase in gas mileage. This is dealing with barebones, cheap cell design (under 60$) producing 0.5L/min easily.

That's where it is. If you start putting solar into it like ORIPEIA implied, then you're talking off the grid stuff.

reply to post by Ahabstar


I had to look up the very definition of Conviction lol.

Thank you for your words of wisdom, I will put them to much thought. I do not wish to offend you by saying your greedy, when I stated "others flaunting" with the word greedy... I just know how easy it is to get caught up in the collecting money game, cause there is nothing wrong with that. If you work hard and design something that in part outdoes all of these cars... then by all means you deserve your money. But I dont think it right for someone to be making say a million a month and doing nothing but playing golf. Now if your in your factories creating more and more ideas to help out your fellow people and then spending some of the extra money in other useful ways then I think you would earn your money and then some. Would I exspect a human to do this forever? no no no. I assure you though that I would. When I come to terms the meaning of this life i have learned to understand that we are all struggling and the future we create for our kids and their kids needs to be a future that is always pushing forward... not one that is recessing like ours. We have so much work we have to do.

I mean even the Educational system has to be altered. Kids are getting smarter and smarter but they have to learn the true dynamics of being human, and things such as morals. People always debate morals and religion, but Morals are imperative to have no matter what religion you are. It creates a balance and a future. The lack of morals coexists with the greed that is ruining this country.

I believe that if you have good intention behind your goals not only will you succeed but you will prosper. I just know that prosperity and greed become intertwined very easily and people have to learn to stay away from it.

TheAgentNinteen:

Thanks for the video.

Antar:

I agree. with you. This is old technology, atleast though now it is hitting the streets. Not they need to fix the roll out solar panels that we can put on our rooves and charge our homes and cars that way. At night also. There is still a lot of infrared light that is beamed down from the moon (reflection of the sun) at night that newer solar panels catch. Things are getting better and worse at the same time. We the people just have to act and make these things happen for good and not just hope they will work out... we have to make them... thus getting involved.