Serapis - a genetically engineered Hybrid?

reply to post by AmmonSeth


Welcome back to ATS.

The paradigm-police or "The New Inquisition" with their pseudoskeptical BS is alive and well here.

But their value in bumping threads to the top of the lists and thereby helping opening posts to get more widespread attention far outweighs their antagonism. I look forward to many, many more posts by Harte & Co.

He has posted new ones Harte, and it is not just the OP who wants to discuss ideas that don't fit your "lack of evidence equals non-truth" criteria. Many of us enjoy this kind of volley. What your squealing does is rally the troops and encourage us to do more digging and uncovering, while enduring a minor annoyance. Kind of like studying with an obnoxious fly.

thank you, thank you :-)

a fairly long time ago i started my career here by posting possible 'alternate' theories about atlantis and where it is/was,
i was often met by hartes ignorance, he/she liked to decide that what he/she said was fact, even though there are no 'facts' about atlantis, strange that really

oh and i would like to point out to harte that 'genetic engineering' in ancient terms doesnt have to be the complex genetic experiments the human race does today, it could simply have been something as simple as cross breeding,

or to add another completely separate 'theory' to this thread,

have none of you assumed that those servants were created, but were made intentionally dead as the feat of creating them to live would've been impossible at the time? I would say they were more of a object of 'fear' to show the villagers & common people how powerful the god-king was, as just seeing a body with a bulls head sewn to the top would've lead them to believe it real

although there is still the possibility that they were actually created and were living beings, but who knows

reply to post by AmmonSeth


I know your early ATS posts. I read many of them browsing the old ATS-archives. I always wondered where you had dissappeared to.

Thanks for providing your alternate theories. Certainly interesting to ponder that they might have tried to cross-bread by non-technological means or even faked/staged the process.

Maybe even to copy the "Gods" or to give the pretense of being Kings/Gods themselves.

or, they were trying to achieve something they saw being done by "gods", "ancient astronauts" or "mortals with technologies" they did not understand. Since those people were said to have "left" our world once we became "un-ruley" . edited to add~ woops, you beat me..

[edit on 2-10-2008 by seagrass]

How about a more useful approach than making snide remarks at each other -- let's go look up the bull mummies, find out which museums they're in, how many of them there are, and what is known about them.

There's a nice page that gives an overview of them here:
www.animalmummies.com...

...and yes, apparently in the early years the priests and pharoahs may have eaten the animal before the head and some of the bones were preserved. From what I read, it seems that the tombs of many of them from the earliest period contain only ashes and burned bones:
home.comcast.net...

I see at least five burials of Apis bulls... perhaps we can find details of a number plus the condition of the mummies. I'll start with this:

Chamber "K" of the Apis catacomb suffered a collapse of the ceiling in antiquity, impacting a burial containing an anthropoid coffin with a "human shaped mummy" and a gold "human" mask on it's face, covered with jewelry and amulets containing the name of Khaemwast. Some tried to say that the burial was that of the famous prince, but in fact it was another of the bull burials such as the one describe above as the 4th recorded burial.

Mariette did not report finding any canopic in the lesser vaults but four are known to exist, three of which are in the museum at Marsailles. A couple of others are depicted in early travelogues, such as one by Paul Luca, in which he says he once saw a complete burial with canopic jars. Supposedly some were also found by Arabs at Abusir as well.

In all, four Apis bulls were buried during the 67-year reign of Ramses II. Crown Prince Merneptah, who succeeded Khaemwast as High Priest of Ptah at Memphis, was responsible for the latter burials. We are not sure how many burials of Apis bulls occurred following Ramses II's reign, and the remains are also sketchy. No firm attributions of Apis burials appear again until the Third Intermediate Period save for one attributed to Ramses XI, said to be in Chamber "O". Mariette attributed at least three burials to that specific chamber which is at a lower level

source: home.comcast.net...

This matches with some of the books mentioning Apis bulls on Google books.


There are papyrus scrolls that talk about how the bull is embalmed (I believe this is also where the information comes about how the bulls looked and the beliefs about their birth.

In looking a bit further, the "Serapeum" is a name given to the place by later scholars and is not what the Egyptians called the place. That's a Greek word, and if it was used at all by them, it was after the Ptolomies came to Egypt (they were Greeks installed as pharoahs) and tried to make Egypt a fully Greek province.
www.egyptsites.co.uk...

So how about looking at the records of the individual bulls. I see references to a bull in a coffin and the coffin has a human mask... but the body is that of a bull.

reply to post by Byrd


Thanks for providing the reading material.

I will go through it in the next weeks to learn more about the apis-bulls.

Originally posted by seagrass
He has posted new ones Harte, and it is not just the OP who wants to discuss ideas that don't fit your "lack of evidence equals non-truth" criteria. Many of us enjoy this kind of volley. What your squealing does is rally the troops and encourage us to do more digging and uncovering, while enduring a minor annoyance. Kind of like studying with an obnoxious fly.

This is as good a rendition as any of the true role of skepticism, on forums like this or in the real world of scientific inquiry.

Thank you.

Originally posted by AmmonSeth
a fairly long time ago i started my career here by posting possible 'alternate' theories about atlantis and where it is/was,
i was often met by hartes ignorance, he/she liked to decide that what he/she said was fact, even though there are no 'facts' about atlantis, strange that really

The only "fact" about Atlantis (or any of this stuff) I've ever claimed is the same one you here state - there are none. That is, there is no evidence, hence no reason to believe, that Atlantis ever existed.

Most of my posts here involve showing why this or that piece of supposed "evidence" isn't really evidence at all. I do claim to have some evidence myself, evidence that has resulted in the current "mainstream" theory. Actually, in every case (AFAIK) there are good, solid reasons for the theory that people here refer to as "mainstream."

Originally posted by AmmonSethoh and i would like to point out to harte that 'genetic engineering' in ancient terms doesnt have to be the complex genetic experiments the human race does today, it could simply have been something as simple as cross breeding,

Really?

Humans cannot "cross breed" with Bovines. To make a Bovine-Human hybrid would be far, far more complicated than anything that modern geneticists have accomplished.

Originally posted by AmmonSeth
have none of you assumed that those servants were created, but were made intentionally dead as the feat of creating them to live would've been impossible at the time? I would say they were more of a object of 'fear' to show the villagers & common people how powerful the god-king was, as just seeing a body with a bulls head sewn to the top would've lead them to believe it real

It seems that you've become somewhat more skeptical yourself. This idea is one that could explain the situation without resorting to (again) the meddling, unevidenced aliens.

Harte

Originally posted by Skyfloating
they must have really existed. And since evolution cannot create these type of hybrids naturally, they must have been created artificially, by the “Gods” who once roamed the earth and then left. And once gone, their hybrid animals died out. And these monsters, because of the evil they represented, were smashed into pieces when they were buried.

Related Thread: Forbidden Egyptology

But why bury them with so much honor if they were in fact looked on as evil?

The only thing that would make sense is that the bones were taken from the various animals and used to create these "hybrids" in a similar manner as the rib that was taken from Adam and used to make Eve.

Also, it seems to me that there may have still been some kind of powerful hybrid alive that would ensure the proper respect and burial shown.

So interesting in light of the evidence that some people who said they had worked with captured "aliens" described them as being living life forms but very mechanical in mannerisms, a machine with skin and flesh.

Could the same "tampering" be in play today? And could it be an attempt by the ones described in the Bible as "The Sons of God" to create similar hybrids like the grays to advance the belief that the aliens are a highly advanced form of extraterrestrial in order to solidify the acceptance of their rule if they should decide to return.

Also, pertaining to the mysterious passage in Genesis 6 about the obviously supernatural beings called "The Sons of God".
If these Sons of God were mad over the destruction by God of their hybrid giant offspring, would they not try again. I think the evidence in the Bible speaks for itself, because we know after God destroyed the first bunch of giant hybrid offspring, it states they reappeared again.

So either God didn't take care of all of them the first time, which I think could not be the case, but put forth for the sake of argument, or the Sons of God began to intermingle with humans once again.

There is of course much more to the story that we have not been told by God. But we do have the tombs as found in Egypt to give us fascinating clues as to what has possibly transpired.

It is definitely a theory that has some merit considering the evidence presented. Thank you for a great thread Skyfloating, star and flag.

reply to post by Harte



ah you caught me there


but seriously we all know that daeniken is very controversial to say the least

reply to post by Skyfloating


Why do I believe the ancient astronaut theory to be bunk? Because it's a bad theory.

The theory claims that ancient man traveled in space. One huge problem with that? We don't have any of the spaceships. There is no evidence of a prehistoric cape Canaveral. We have none of the equipment that people would have needed to survive in the upper atmosphere, much less in orbit. Glass, plastics, strong metals with a low rate of oxidization, and all that other stuff that would be needed for spaceflight are, how we say, not especially common in archaeology.

To explain this death of evidence, the ancient astronaut theory usually relies on another fringe theory, the global cataclysm. Whether it's the Great Flood, a war with aliens, or something like a black hole passing through the earth, sucking humanity's great achievements into it, the global cataclysm proposes that at some point, humanity faced a huge, civilization-toppling near-extinction. Like the ancient astronaut theory, there's no evidence for such a cataclysm. No ruins, for one. No worldwide sediment / char / radioactive glass (take your pick by cataclysm) layer, nothing.

So the ancient astronaut theory leans on the global cataclysm theory to explain its own lack of evidence - all the space ships were vaporized! But wait, there's more!

Both theories rely heavily on the plain ol' conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory is a backup theory that allows for the use of absence of evidence in support of a theory, as evidence in and of itself. That is, by using the conspiracy theory, the claimant can say "there's no evidence supporting my theory whatsoever, so clearly someone is covering it all up, thus making my theory correct - what are they hiding?!"

Apparently the Archaeological community, famed for its disjointed and argumentative manner (a nasty debate has been running for years on the precise method that Clovis people killed a mammoth) manages to find time to close ranks and unify opinion just to stymie people like Skyfloating, by covering up evidence of a global cataclysm that destroyed all the ancient spaceships, making Skyfloating correct.



Circular, self-referencing, self-reinforcing logic that's utterly dependant on there being a lack of evidence at all to work effectively. That is why I think the ancient astronaut theory is bunk.

Now a days with genetic engineering being what it is ,we do have 'hybrids' of people and animals ,but they are more in the nature of chimeras, not a thing like a half man half horse ,which would not survive lets say there was even a way for that to happen. Maybe there was a time in the history of the region when scientists from another world,did genetic splicing on the nature of what we do now ,here's gene for better sight we'll throw that in and the Apis and Egyptian gods are a reference though poorly understood of that? Or maybe they were foreshadowing something they could conceptualize but did not have the foundation to achieve?

Originally posted by Harte
It seems that you've become somewhat more skeptical yourself. This idea is one that could explain the situation without resorting to (again) the meddling, unevidenced aliens.

Harte

im not skeptical, i just happen to know more than i wish to say :-)

Originally posted by AmmonSeth

Originally posted by Harte
It seems that you've become somewhat more skeptical yourself. This idea is one that could explain the situation without resorting to (again) the meddling, unevidenced aliens.

Harte

im not skeptical, i just happen to know more than i wish to say :-)

Now that's not fair, come on,...spill... I hate when people do that to me.

Okay... looking at materials on the three types of bulls, in the case of the Apis bulls there are only bovine mummies (a rather difficult thing to do) in the records of the Apis mummies that I've found.

This one discusses embalming and mentions the bulls:
aridaterra.uta.cl...

This one mentions briefly other mummified bulls including the Apis one. There is no evidence that anything other than bulls were in the mummies.
www.jstor.org...

What's interesting to note is that they had "heart scarabs" meaning that they were buried with charms just like humans and the pharaohs were.

The much maligned (and often deservedly so) Wallis Budge wrote a book in the late 1800's that's available on Google Scholar. Called "The Mummy: Chapters on Egyptian Funereal Archaeology", he reviews and details nearly 500 mummies. He's free of the taint of Hawass and Von Danniken, since his book was written in 1894. It's available for download as a horking huge PDF but you can look at the HTML and scan it for topics of interest.

Jstor has an article on a Sarqqua bovine burial: www.jstor.org...

There is no evidence of non-bovine material in the mummy.

Science 28 March 1975 describes an autopsy of a mummy... Apis bulls make it into the text, but there is no mention or description of anything non-bull-like in the mummies.

A book (which grew from a 1984 thesis defense) talks about the rituals and methods of embalming the Apis bulls. Long read, but is on Google books: The APIs Embalming Ritual: P. Vindob. 3873

To date, I'm not seeing any reports of bull mummies containing anything other than mummified bulls or bull parts. Could you point to some more direct evidence about which mummy is being mentioned (which contains non-bull material) ... like which museum it's in and where it came from... so we can look it up and perhaps look at the museum's online notes about it?

There may be a journal article about it that I can also get to.

So far, I'm coming up with a dead blank on anything non-bovine in the bull mummies. I'm not ruling it out since the AEs faked other mummies during the Ptolomaic period. I'd just like to get a date on this critter and better details.

Berossus says this is what Oannes said

After this there appeared other animals like Oannes, of which Berossus proposes to give an account when he comes to the history of the kings. Moreover Oannes wrote concerning the generation of mankind; and of their civil polity; and the following is the purport of what he said: "There was a time in which there existed nothing but darkness and an abyss of waters, wherein resided most hideous beings, which were produced of a two-fold principle. There appeared men, some of whom were furnished with two wings, others with four, and with two faces. They had one body but two heads: the one that of a man, the other of a woman: and likewise in their several organs both male and female. Other human figures were to be seen with the legs and horns of goats: some had horses' feet: while others united the hind quarters of a horse with the body of a man, resembling in shape the hippocentaurs. Bulls likewise were bred there with the heads of men; and dogs with fourfold bodies, terminated in their extremities with the tails of fishes: horses also with the heads of dogs: men too and other animals, with the heads and bodies of horses and the tails of fishes. In short, there were creatures in which were combined the limbs of every species of animals. In addition to these, fishes, reptiles, serpents, with other monstrous animals, which assumed each other's shape and countenance. Of all which were preserved delineations in the temple of Belus at Babylon.

source

Originally posted by Byrd
So far, I'm coming up with a dead blank on anything non-bovine in the bull mummies. I'm not ruling it out since the AEs faked other mummies during the Ptolomaic period. I'd just like to get a date on this critter and better details.

Now that's irony for you, as I believe I already indicated that the entire thing was a bunch of bull.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
Now that's irony for you, as I believe I already indicated that the entire thing was a bunch of bull.

Harte

Whats ironic is that you dont believe in any of it, yet you still regularly check back for news on it,

Okay I am just throwing anything into the mix here. I always try to have an open mind And thank you Seagrass for twisting my arm

According to the Mayas, Aztecs, Incas, Hopis, the Hindu beliefs, the Hebrew traditions, Greek mythology and other ancient texts , various human races lived during past ages, or world cycles. Each of the past ages ended due to a cataclysm. The gods later recreated humanity and restored life on the Earth.

As stated in previous posts some of these texts spoke of giants, which we encounter in sacred books and mythology from all over the world. The Nephilim mentioned in the Bible were for example a genetic creation of the "fallen angels", who rebelled against their leader, Yahweh.

One cannot help but draw parallels between giants of myth and modern forms of gigantism

Gigantism

All over the world, giant size footprints in solid stone have been found. The footprints are reported to be very clear, with the toes, heels and outline distinct: naturally rounded and curved like a normal footprint. Some of these prints show six toes on each foot which brings to mind the modern medical term Hyperdactyly - a congenital physical anomaly which consists of supernumerary fingers and toes.

Hyperdactyly

The Popol Vuh, the sacred book of the Quiché Maya, tells a story of extraterrestrial gods who came down from the heavens and, just as the Bible states created Man in their own image.

Some scholars believe that religion appeared around 100.000 years ago others say closer to 50,000 - during the transition from the middle to the Upper Paleolithic. Increasing evidence of burial with grave goods and the appearance of anthropomorphic images and cave paintings may suggest that humans in the Upper Paleolithic were the first to believe in supernatural beings . Additionally it is also possible that Upper Paleolithic religions like contemporary and historical Animistic and Polytheistic religions believed in the existence of a single creator deity.

What I did find really interesting was in the Chauvet Cave [ca 30,0000-28,000BCE] hundreds of animal paintings were recorded …including horses, cattle and reindeer…as well as predatory animals - lions, panthers, bears, owls, rhinos and hyenas. They only found one human figure at the very end of the gallery… a Venus figure.

In Cussac cave [ca26,000-19,000 BCE]…again all represented bestiary of the Paleolithic world.

The Cosquer Cave [ca25,000 and 17,000 BCE] contained a large number of drawings depicting various land animals: horses, bison, aurochs, ibex and chamois, various members of the cervidae family, a feline, and some as yet unidentified animals.…Marine animals…rarely found in decorated caves from the Paleolithic era make up a significant portion of the overall number of figures.

From all the information I have studied so far it is not until we get to the cave paintings of Lascaux [ca 15,000-13,000 BCE] that we find anthropomorphic paintings which show depictions of strange beasts such as ones that are half human and half bird or half human and half lion.

This timeframe would have to indicate a massive shift in consciousness. So I suppose the question that comes to mind is - What circumstances or events created this massive shift in thought / feeling ?

The socerer

The Horned God




[edit on 5-10-2008 by destiny-fate]

That's my girl, thanks for helping with a tricky subject....
See that wasn't so hard....
(seagrass rallies the troops)