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If Hell is Unfair... Then so is Heaven.

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posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


I'm still on page 1 lol. So if I keep asking questions asked by someone else, then I'm sorry.



Well, like I answered before, I do not believe people who cannot make a conscious decision will be doomed. Like babies or the mentally handicapped. In the analogy's case, we are referring to 'willful criminals.' That's the way I see it at least.


Again, 'willful criminals' BECAUSE of the original sin. Again, it is not their fault because they were "born into sin" and cannot help but sin.
To be guilty of something, you have to actually do the deed.
It does not matter if they hear the gospel. They did not make the decision to be born into sin, therefore, they cannot be punished for something they did not decide to do.




posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by Deaf Alien
 


Well, the Bible talks about the age of accountability. Also, have you ever known of a single person who hasn't sinned? I'm not talking about original sin but actual willful sin- lying, stealing, engaging in lust, etc. As long as we have the capacity to know right from wrong, I would say it is willful sin- and we are all guilty of it. It is true we cannot help being sinful creatures. That is why we were offered grace in the first place. It would only be terribly unfair if we were judged on a condition we cannot help and are offered no way out, so to speak. But we are indeed offered a way out.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Well the christian doctrine states that we will be punished for the original sin, something Adam did, and not our deeds during our lifetimes.
Unless I'm mistaken
It has been a long time since I was a christian.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by Deaf Alien
 


Those who reject Jesus as their savior, Yes. But remember John 3:16, among many others but that is the most famous.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Good question and thanks for the input.
I just got my post removed on that Christian forum for saying the soul can die. Apparently that is not orthodox. I quoted the verse in Revelation about every soul in sea dies.Maybe you can help me out on what you think a soul is, exactly. I guess some people believe that souls are immortal. I noticed one of the moderators of that Christian forum was commenting on a thread about fallen angels. He said they were created immortal and he never said they had lost that immortality. Hmmm?
As for the thing in Corinthians, there is a parallel verse in Mathew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The word "soul" is the life. So, apparently you can loose your body but still have a life and also you can loose that life. Meaning it is not eternal.

[edit on 3-10-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Well the christian doctrine states that we will be punished for the original sin, something Adam did, and not our deeds during our lifetimes.
Unless I'm mistaken
It has been a long time since I was a christian.


actually it doesnt say that we are punished for the original sin. what it says is that because of adam sin entered into this world and death through sin.

what adam did made us born imperfect, in other words we have a inclination to things other than what god had purposed. kind of like alcoholism. the kid doesnt suffer from a bad liver because of the father, but if he starts drinking, he may have the inclination to keep going.

we die of our own sins.

jesus not only died to forgive our sins, but also to pave the way for the inclination of sin to be removed in the future.



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Hmmm, that is NOT what the bible says.



Romans 5:12-21 (King James Version)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 07:06 AM
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hello all

i believe in predestination, therefore i believe in once saved always saved

no man can take us away from that

Jesus said no man could pluck us away and that God gave us to him

Philippians 1:6 KJV

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

God will perform this as he knows we cannot as we will always fail. we can try and be successful some of the time but not all. This is the very reason he made a new covenant because us humans failed to honour our side of the bargain before.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Matthew 13:23 KJV

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

here

he that received means he that was given

the understanding is a spiritual gift given to us by the grace of God

1 Corinthians 12:4:8

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

we cannot understand the word of God without the gift of understanding (wisdom,knowledge) without that gift the words of the gospel have no meaning or effect and die within us.

Faith which is a gift and comes though hearing the word of God (romans 10) and being able to understand the words through the gifts bestowed upon us by our Lord.

Isaiah 65:1 KJV

I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

God chose a nation, he chooses us, he chooses those that are not even looking for him, he calls them to repentance.

The simple fact that Jesus chose the apostles (Luke 6)

John 6:44 KJV

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

the works are the commandments keeping. those are summed up by our Lord Jesus as loving God and your neighbour.

The faith without works scripture is in James 2 but it is also here that we are given an outline of not helping those that are in need

James 2

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 1

7 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

works, loving our brethren as ourselves, is a summary of some of the commandments, those that do not have this in their hearts have not been given faith by God. They have heard the gospel but have gone it alone but they are to wither and die just as in the parable.

do not forget also that there are wolves amongst us. I firmly believe that we will all fail at times and do what James is describing, but if we are genuine of heart we will repent and ask forgiveness and strength to be better.

Our genuine failings are forgiven by Christ, he died for those failings.

we demonstrate our faith through obeying God and his commandments.

Our works is our obedience.

David



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by Deaf Alien

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


yes but read the very next verse since it explains 18


19 For as by one man's disobedience many were MADE sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


we arent perfect but condemned to adam´s sin, we are imperfect because of adam´s sin and therefore sin on our own



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Deaf Alien

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


yes but read the very next verse since it explains 18


19 For as by one man's disobedience many were MADE sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


we arent perfect but condemned to adam´s sin, we are imperfect because of adam´s sin and therefore sin on our own


I am not sure I understand why you think that verse shows that we are responsible for our inborn sinful nature.
Basically, what those verses say is that Adam is responsible for our sinful nature, therefore we are not responsible.



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by drevill
i believe in predestination, therefore i believe in once saved always saved

no man can take us away from that


duet 30:[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[20] That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

we have a choice whether or not to serve god. if there is predestination, then there is no choice



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 10:02 AM
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reply to post by drevill
 

You need to understand that people who are not raised into that kind of belief (predestination) look at what you quote as having nothing to do with it. Your indoctrination has trained you to look at these and read into them something that reinforces something you were already taught to believe in.
Could you post an argument that regular people could understand, and prove predestination.
------------------------------------------
I guess I should not presume that you come from a Calvinist background but I do not find anyone else advocating predestination, also I seriously doubt that Calvinist churches are bringing in any converts from other more liberal churches.


[edit on 4-10-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


hello

God here is telling and showing us good and evil

It is not a choice ,it is not one of pick A or B. It is a simply a command.

This was given by Moses to the people that god had already chosen and delivered out of Egypt

This is the demand to obey the law while they were in the Promised Land

John 15:16 KJV

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:



david



edit to expound

[edit on 4-10-2008 by drevill]



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 





Could you post an argument that regular people could understand, and prove predestination?


Let's see what Jesus Himself has to say.

John 6:44-45

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

John 6:65

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

John 8:47

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."



posted on Oct, 4 2008 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by drevill
 





Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


That is my favorite verse!!!



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I can sit here and read the Bible, all day long. Apparently you project some special meaning into these verses that support some sort of doctrine. Whatever it is, it goes over my head. I do not think it is because God wants me to go to Hell, so he is preventing me from understanding. Rather, I imagine that you were taught something and these are your touch-stones to this special knowledge. "Programed" for a response. I realize you want to deny you belong to a cult and will get angry, but examine your heart and what creates that indignation.


[edit on 5-10-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by drevill
John 15:16 KJV

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


being called or ¨ordained¨ by god doesnt at all prove predestination. god is calling the righteous and those who have good hearts the same way a shepard would call his sheep. this in no way takes away the responsibility we have for our actions.

jer 25:[5] They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:
[6] And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

acts 3:[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

clearly we have a choice. and you can make the wrong one. jesus calls or invites people to heaven

matt 22:[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

rev 2:[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

so here´s the big question... why would god invite people he has already decided will not be chosen?



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I can sit here and read the Bible, all day long. Apparently you project some special meaning into these verses that support some sort of doctrine. Whatever it is, it goes over my head. I do not think it is because God wants me to go to Hell, so he is preventing me from understanding. Rather, I imagine that you were taught something and these are your touch-stones to this special knowledge. "Programed" for a response. I realize you want to deny you belong to a cult and will get angry, but examine your heart and what creates that indignation.




I'm not angry. I just define my "doctrine" by the Word of God, not ANY man.

Jesus says Himself that "no man" can come to Him unless that man first be drawn by God.

That settles it for me, I follow Jesus Christ. And Him only. It's not my position to judge what Christ says, or to question God's will.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Hello Miriam

i know we disagree

ultimately everything is done for the Glory of God

God created heavens and Earth, and us, so he starts us. Prophecy itself shows us our destination and that God knows the outcome.

The fact that Jeremiah is saying all this means nothing.
and that he has said you did not listen is irrelevant, Jeremiah is doing what he is told as God sets our hearts as he sees fit

God set their path and Jeremiah is telling them the consequences, it can never be used to prove free will.

our actions are controlled by God

Matthew 10:29 KJV

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father

Exodus 4:21 KJV

but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.


And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

Exodus 14:4 KJV

This clearly shows that God is in control of even the feelings of everyone. and demonstrates why Jeremiah had to say what he said. for the Glory of God

God does everything for his glory.

if we all have free will then this makes a mockery of his word. How can prophecy come true under free will.

Clearly if God has chosen any man for any reason then freewill has not come into play, he does not make mistakes. If God says ok ill have him as an apostle to Christ but he says no thanks, what kind of God do we have?

the below scripture again shows pre destination on many levels.

a) blessed as they have been saved
b) given to christ even before the earth and Adam was formed
3) that they were chosen by receiving spiritual gifts including faith
40 they were made worthy for Christ

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, F1 and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

All of this was for his Glory, no matter what we think or do God is the one that is controlling it he creates us all to live and die according to his will and plan. No matter how we like it God creates some to spend eternity with him and some to perish

romans 9:21-24 kjv

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

as hard and unpleasant as it may be to us mere humans God sets hardness in the hearts of some and faith and knowledge in others,

Acts 13:48 kjv

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

David



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 04:06 PM
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