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If Hell is Unfair... Then so is Heaven.

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posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 04:18 AM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Is that a liscense to sin freely? Of course not, we are to obey as best we can, salvation cannot be lost, but rewards most certainly can.

Case in point: Was the thief on the cross justified by works or by faith? He was together with the Lord forever because he had faith in Jesus as the only Son of God. Faith alone. He wasn't baptized, he didn't take communion. He had saving faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Did the thief have rewards upon death? Most likely not, but he wasn't going to hell.

the thief was a particular situation. jesus saw what was in his heart and was saw that he could forgive him. that doesnt mean all ¨bedside confessions¨ are accepted.

there are plenty of scriptures that show you can lose your salvation.

ephesians 5:[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

this was stated AFTER telling the congregation to put aside these things. after putting on ¨the new man¨ (or baptism) and then returning to these acts, one would not be able to inhert god´s kingdom

matthew 10:[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

your not ¨saved¨ until the end when you have proven faithful. you have to keep trying. if you stop trying and go back to the world, then you lose your saved status

phillipians 2:[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

you can never presume your salvation

2 peter 2 :[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

its worse because you cannot claim ignorance to god´s commandments.

john 15:[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

if a plant has dead branches, then you prune them so that the whole tree doesnt get sick. same with god´s organization. if someone returns to the world, they lose any attachment to god´s organization, including salvation

heb 6:[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

to ¨fall away,¨ it means that they were once part of the fold. but they fell out of grace.

you can lose your salvation

posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 12:03 PM
Miriam, if that were the case, the Apostle Paul isn't in heven, he admitted that he still struggled with sin. We all are sinners, we all continue to sin and need to seek forgiveness daily. I'm still a sinner, you are still a sinner, everyone continues to sin.

Here is a good read:

posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 01:53 PM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Miriam, if that were the case, the Apostle Paul isn't in heven, he admitted that he still struggled with sin.

exactly. salvation happens ONCE, you cant lose it !!! this is what the BIBLE says ! Jesus said NO ONE will be able to pluck us out of His hand , so why do people STILl fall from faith ? Beacuse they`re NOT saved ! it makes total sense and you know it

here is the PROOF !

John 10:28

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Never and no one.

people confuse conversion , which is by faith, with regeneration of the wicked heart.

even regenerated Christians i.e. trully saved still struggle with sin, just like Paul ! but they ARE saved and Heaven bound.

posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 04:11 PM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Miriam, if that were the case, the Apostle Paul isn't in heven, he admitted that he still struggled with sin. We all are sinners, we all continue to sin and need to seek forgiveness daily. I'm still a sinner, you are still a sinner, everyone continues to sin.

again, your not understanding what im saying.

the bible is absolutely 100% clear that noone can earn salvation. that it is by the grace of god through christ´s blood that we are saved. this point you and me agree on.

however, who does god apply mercy (grace) to? is it everyone? the bible is also 100% clear that not everyone receives the benefit of the ransom. while christ did die for everyone, not everyone accepts this gift. and even if they do accept, god still has standards.

so what is the criteria for someone to receive grace and to be saved?

Dhammer is right, salvation does only happen once, but it is AFTER, not before, you have shown yourself faithful by trying your best to live by god´s standards.

matt 10:[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

matt 24:[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

mark 13:[13] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 tim 2:[10] Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

james 1:[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

believing that you are saved once and for all is the equivalent of writing yourself a blank check. everything thing is excusable because jesus will forgive you right? God is not one to be mocked.

gal 6:[7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.[8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

just because following the law perfectly is not attainable by us today doesnt mean we dont have an obligation to try.

john 14:[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 10:35 PM
reply to post by miriam0566

Dhammer is right, salvation does only happen once, but it is AFTER, not before, you have shown yourself faithful by trying your best to live by god´s standards.

^^^^ That is "works salvation". It's a false doctrine.

Ephesians 2:8-9:

"For by grace you have been saved through FAITH. And this is NOT your own doing; it is the gift of God, NOT a result of works, so that no one may boast."

posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 10:59 PM
Miriam, I suggest you read Galatians chapters 2-4. Here are some very relevant verses:

Galatians 2:16:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Galatians 2:21:

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Galatians 3:3:

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

Galatians 3:10-11:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

Galatians 3:26-27:

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 03:01 AM
again your not listening or understanding what im saying.

your labeling it a doctrine and throwing it out.

i AGREE. salvation itself is given through the grace of god. not by works. but how does god determine who he applies grace to?

jesus said to struggle through the door, what did he mean? why would there be a struggle if we all just gave up and said it was impossible?

if paul wasnt trying not to sin, then why was he having problems in the first place? instead writing about his struggle, wouldnt he have just said ¨oh well, jesus will forgive me, no problem¨

your leaving key elements out of your faith.

if the law doesnt apply as a standard, then there is no sin. if there is no sin, then there is no need for a ransom. the ransom isnt just about salvation, its about giving us the opportunity to return to gods standard.

matt 9:[13] But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

what does repentance mean to you?

to repent -
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind

to turn from sin. if you lie, then you stop yourself. then you do it again, have you repented?

here´s how you know god will apply grace to you....

pss 199:
[2] Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
[34] Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
[58] I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.
[112] I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.

remember jesus´most important commandment?

mark 12:[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

so my question is this, can a person who simply believes in god, and who doesnt try to keep his commandents claim that he loves god with all his heart?

posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 05:46 AM
Mariam is right on this one. All I see is the bible passages left and right. The answer is very clear. Faith alone is not enough. The bible is very clear and says that faith without works is dead. You know this notyourtypical. It's a fact.

now can you lose your salvation?

ofcourse. Yes salvation happens once, but guess when that is? At the judgement seat. Not here on earth. We are not saved until we meet God at the seat and are accounted for. That's also biblical.


" Not all that say Lord Lord to me shall enter the kingdom of my father, but he who doe the will of my father "


" You are (called) to be saints "

meaning they are not already but are called to higher living.

JOHN 15:6

" If you (do not) abide in me "

meaning, first of all why would God even mention souls who know about him to even have the ability to not abide in him if they are already saved? common sense.


" i fear I myself may become a castaway after preaching to the faithful "

Not notyour said even st paul sinned. Yea but I garuntee you he overcame his sins before death. that's that point. If you die in sin you are not saved. St Paul contracted sin at a young age and had to fight to overcome and he did. I promise you he was perfect before he died and made saintly.


" He who endureth until the end "

endure what? You know the answer.

2PETER 2:20

" Return to the vomit "

Now he's talking specifically about christians who AFTER learning about Christ return to the vomit and die that way.

this is the bible. Once saved always saved is not biblical. Any clear soul can see this.


posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 07:28 AM
reply to post by miriam0566

Whoa, wait a second!!!

When DID I ever say there is NO repentance????? Repentance means doing a 180 on your wicked lifestyle, admitting you are a sinner, asking for forgiveness and for Jesus to save you, then to be baptized, then to follow the Lord.

I NEVER said one needs not to repent Miriam. I said salvation does NOT give someone a liscense to sin freely. I never said that, show me where I did!

Jesus said: "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do the things that I say?"

posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 08:21 AM
Miriam and Jesusis,

Read this entire blog, and tell me what you think. The conditional security doctrine isn't Biblical IMHO.

Well, read the blog and let me know what you learn or reject from it.


posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 09:02 AM
And here is anther good read I just found. It also made me stop and evaluate how I have been handling this issue. I apologize to you Miriam and Jesusis.

My only advice is like this page says, to pray to God to give you an answer through the Word, and to leave the debate alone. It's true, we as Christians spend too much time debating doctrine with eachother, vilifying eachother, and condemning eachother. Then we have little energy left to witness to the lost, to concentrate on reaching those who don't have any security, either conditional or unconditional.

So, sorry, with this post I don't want to engage in this debate anymore, I'll just hold onto what the Holy Spirit reveals to me through the Word of God, and I won't bother arguing my side with someone else, but I encourage us all as followers of Christ to leave this argument alone, and to concentrate our thoughts, time, and energy trying to reach those who don't yet have the Lord in their lives.


posted on Sep, 30 2008 @ 03:01 AM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

When DID I ever say there is NO repentance?????

you never did, but your posts imply that you believe that works have nothing to do with salvation, which just isnt true.

you are right, works in itself do not directly lead to salvation. grace does.

however, works do help determine who god applies grace to.

some christians (not you) erroneously assume that because works do not gain salvation, that christ will forgive them no matter what they do or no matter how many times they sin.

i read the blog you posted... some thoughts

If sanctification required any effort on our part then salvation would be by our good works. If sanctification required effort by us then salvation would not be through the shed blood of Jesus! Anyone who denies that salvation is through the blood of the Only Begotten Son of God, who sacrificed His life to atone for our sins, is headed for hellfire. If we could be good enough to save ourselves then Jesus wouldn’t have needed to die on the cross.

i found this to be an absolutist statement. its black and white, not taking into consideration what alot of scripture say on the matter. the opposite to this statement is also ridiculous. one could say ¨because sanctification doesnt require any effort on our part, then anyone and everyone will be saved¨.

while it is true that by christ´s blood we are saved, jesus made very clear that effort was required on our part in order to have this grace applied to us

Some people have the foolish notion that they can commit a sin then just tell God they’re sorry and that makes everything all right. That’s what the believers in Progressive Sanctification say. But, to restore fellowship with God it takes more than just confessing it and saying you’re sorry, it takes repentance. Repentance means to not only change your mind about what you are doing, but to also turn away from it. If a man is shacking up with a woman, simply saying, “I’m sorry God,” just won’t do. It requires that you get out of that sinful situation.

but its this final sentence that gets me....

But this will only restore fellowship; the man’s sanctification was never taken away.


how can you lack fellowship with god and still be sanctified?

he doesnt seem to understand what sanctify means

to sanctify
1: to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use : consecrate
2: to free from sin : purify
3 a: to impart or impute sacredness, inviolability, or respect to b: to give moral or social sanction to
4: to make productive of holiness or piety

sanctify doesnt = saved

sanctify = qualified to be saved. to be made clean

being made clean doesnt mean that you cant be made dirty. adam was perfect in a literal sense. he wasnt just declared clean, he was clean literally and yet he sinned and died for that sin.

jesus´ death wasnt just about salvation, it was about redeeming mankind so that it could be raised to perfection again. to say that following his commandments isnt the utmost importance is to miss the point.

Through a proper repentant and loving attitude we may progressively become more Christ-like but we will never become more sanctified.

this is the part that is so confusing to people. Denny here is 100% right. but he leaves out certain key elements.

picture life as an imperfect person like a man sitting in a car with no gas. he cannot help himself because maybe its too dangerous to leave the car. jesus comes by with a tank of gas.

jesus´ death is that tank of gas. it enables us (sanctifies us) to accomplish what god originally intended us to, to serve him perfectly. just like a car is designed to drive. if the man after having the tank fulled thanks jesus and then just sits there, he sort of misses the point.

sanctification is not salvation. after jesus fills your tank YOU still have to drive to your destination.

following the law as closely as we possibly can is a very important aspect of that. again, we agree on alot of points.

So am I saying that it doesn't matter what you believe? Of course not - I believe that your position on this issue dramatically affects your Christian walk. It definately has in mine. What I am saying is that we need to be understanding of why others believe what they do and not crucify them for taking a different point of view if it is drawn from so many places in the Bible. Of course we all know that there are obvious Christian principles that are black and white and 'non-negotiable' (the deity of Christ, the resurrection, sin, salvation by faith alone, etc.). Is eternal security a non-negotiable? I'll be honest with you, I don't know. Again, I believe in it with all my heart, but I'm not sure taking a 'crusader's stand' on it is worth the division it has caused the church to suffer.

again, nicely put. however i respectfully disagree. ¨getting it right¨ is a VERY important part of our worship. just look at the isrealites when they got it wrong.

posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 09:52 AM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
It's true, we as Christians spend too much time debating doctrine with eachother, vilifying eachother, and condemning eachother. Then we have little energy left to witness to the lost, to concentrate on reaching those who don't have any security, either conditional or unconditional.

Here is something that I have been looking at over the last few days, because of a discussion of it on another forum:
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised,)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This is instruction to the Church. The first purpose of the Church, according to this, is to look at each other and work out differences and give encouragement. In this light, I do not see anything wrong in arguing points of religion. I would be happy if there was more of it on this forum.
We should be glad that we have this space available to hash things out without some crazy moderators watching your posts for heresy or personal insults. On that other forum, I got a post removed yesterday for saying I did not want to make any changes to this person's belief system because he seemed to have a well grounded faith. Then I said I was used to writing in an environment of people who had no good understanding of the Bible and I was not interested in preaching to the choir. Well This statement was taken by the moderator as a personal insult. Before it could get removed, the guy who I was responding to said, about my actual answer,"Great, that was exactly what I wanted to hear!"

[edit on 1-10-2008 by jmdewey60]

posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 10:43 AM
reply to post by jmdewey60

I hear you, but no one in this thread believes that once a man or woman is saved that they have a liscense to sin freely without consequence. So the argument is kinda silly.

posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 01:38 PM
I get a brain freeze when I look at big posts, so I do not know exactly what the argument is. I took a look at the other forum at their "once saved always saved" thread to see what they are talking about. It looks like the question is "if you were a good Christian at one time and twenty years later, you fall away or whatever. Are you still saved?"
I do not think they would even allow someone to say to go ahead and sin, on that forum. So, it is worded as a hypothetical of someone else, and that makes it acceptable.
I actually can not say how to prove it one way or another, but from what I quoted in my previous post,(Hebrews 10) it would be, no.
I could be totally wrong because that part is actually talking about the Church and may or may not apply to individuals. Maybe if you can at least stand to sit through a church service, there has to be some hope.

posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 10:00 AM
reply to post by AshleyD

What's your take on eternal security? Can one "lose salvation"?

I find it odd that God has given us intellect to be able to figure things out and by using intellect, some will find the bible to be without merit.
If suffering eternal damnation is true, then yes it is unfair.

posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
What's your take on eternal security? Can one "lose salvation"?

That's known as the OSAS doctrine (Once Saved, Always Saved) and I have mixed feelings on it.
I can understand the points both sides of the subject make. On one had I believe all true believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit (as promised) but there is also such a thing as apostates.

posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 10:41 AM
reply to post by jmdewey60

Just look at what Paul said about the man at the church in Corinth, the man who was in open fornication with his step mother.

He told them to kick him out of the church, so that satan could have his flesh but his soul would still be saved.

posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 11:27 AM
reply to post by AshleyD

Also, God is not arrogant. He is merciful. Let's put it this way. A judge has two criminals standing before him. He is so merciful he tells the criminals their slate will be wiped clean, a fresh start will be given, and all they have to do is admit their crimes and receive the pardon.

Only one problem with this. You cannot compare being a criminal and being born in sin. A criminal decides to commit crimes during his life consciously. How did anyone decide to be born into sin before he or she was born?
No one is accountable for the original sin.
At least in our legal system, we can plead not guilty by reason of insanity.

posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 11:31 AM
reply to post by Deaf Alien

Well, like I answered before, I do not believe people who cannot make a conscious decision will be doomed. Like babies or the mentally handicapped. In the analogy's case, we are referring to 'willful criminals.'
That's the way I see it at least.

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