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If Hell is Unfair... Then so is Heaven.

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posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 02:27 PM
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Lol!
Robinson Crusoe was a Christian.
Wiki

naming his new companion "Friday" after the day of the week he appeared. Crusoe then teaches him English and converts him to Christianity.




posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by Clearskies
 


LOL! hehe that was cute. I think what he means is people in Robinson Crusoe like scenarios. In other words, Crusoe was isolated away from civilization. A better analogy would be his friend Friday you mentioned had Crusoe never met him and shared the Gospel with him. So, for example, a tribe living in the deepest jungles of Africa who never heard of Jesus in ages past until missionaries arrived to share the Good News. In essence, it's the age old question that is something along the lines of, 'What about the Pigmies in Africa?' Or, anyone who lived in the past before the Gospel was spread world wide.


[edit on 9/24/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 02:49 PM
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Heheh...I know, Clearskies. I believe that is the only book he had with him on the island: his Bible.

AshleyD, thanks for your response, and sorry if it appears I keep dogging you
. It just seems I was misunderstood. I did not mean someone who did not know of God. I agree with you that the realisation of God is embedded in each and every human. I'm assuming that you would agree with me, however, that the events that involved Jesus around 2000 years ago are not automatically known to all people.

What I meant by my Robinson Crusoe analogy was a person who may have followed the 1st commandment given by Jesus, but was incapable of disobeying the 2nd commandment because there was no way to do that (no other people). Would he still require Jesus's sacrifice to earn eternal life? Would he have to accept it (even if we assumed he knew about it, but rejected it)?

Thanks again!



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Oops, Sorry! I jumped to a conclusion and was wrong.
Sorry, that question almost always comes up in a topic like this so I assumed what you were asking. Sorry!


Ok, I read this:


What I meant by my Robinson Crusoe analogy was a person who may have followed the 1st commandment given by Jesus, but was incapable of disobeying the 2nd commandment because there was no way to do that (no other people). Would he still require Jesus's sacrifice to earn eternal life? Would he have to accept it (even if we assumed he knew about it, but rejected it)?


I am sure you phrased it quite clearly and is very clear to everyone else reading it but for some reason I am not understanding what you are asking. So I want to ask for clarification.

I THINK what you are saying is that, since we both agree with the fact God writes His existence in the conscience of all men, we are all held accountable to uphold the first commandment. The issue then becomes the second commandment about other/false gods. I actually think that is exactly what Paul is referring to in his epistle when he says EVERYONE- even those who deny it- know deep down inside that God is real. The issue then becomes WHAT God? And replacing Jesus and Jehovah with a pagan god like Zeus, Thor, or Horus (as general examples)?

Or...

You might be saying that if they never knew of Jesus, would they still be covered under Jesus' sacrifice or require it? If this is what you are saying, I believe so. Jesus is described as being 'The Savior to all men.' As in, He is the savior available to all of mankind and becomes our responsibility to accept Him once we have knowledge of what He did.

Or... (lol)

Are you saying that if, say, someone isolated on an island not around other people, are they still to make a choice about Jesus?

Sorry, I'm probably sounding very dense right now but I don't understand what you are asking. I'm sure it will be a huge 'Duh' moment once you explain.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Originally posted by AshleyD
The issue then becomes WHAT God? And replacing Jesus and Jehovah with a pagan god like Zeus, Thor, or Horus (as general examples)?

While not directly related with what I was talking about, I thought this interesting enough so as to wish to comment on it. I don't believe in the concept of a 'false god', insofar as it is a deity that is not 'ungodly' (ie. has hatred for his creation, or wishes pain on them, etc). God is God, whether known as Deus, Gott, Allah, YHWH, El, etc.

I'm not very sure about the choices you offered, perhaps the closest one would be the last. First, I suppose it will be more clear if I understand you on this: If there are no other people around, then the only 'sin' would be such things as wasting resources, mistreating animals, etc. If we assume that this person does not do any of these things (due to belief in God, or a basic realisation that he better not if he wants to survive), then is he sinless? He is following the first commandment, as well as whatever of the 2nd is applicable. Does he need Jesus's sacrifice if he has no sins to atone for (not even pride, he doesn't consider himself better for not sinning)- what happens if he consciously does not accept it? Or is he doomed to sinning anyway?



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 03:54 PM
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Thanks for clarifying.



Originally posted by babloyi
While not directly related with what I was talking about, I thought this interesting enough so as to wish to comment on it. I don't believe in the concept of a 'false god', insofar as it is a deity that is not 'ungodly' (ie. has hatred for his creation, or wishes pain on them, etc). God is God, whether known as Deus, Gott, Allah, YHWH, El, etc.


That is understandable and I know many people believe that. As a Christian, though, I'm sure you know what we believe. That is one of the reasons we are labeled politically incorrect. We believe there is only one way, and that way is Jesus Christ. It's not popular according to the world but I still confess that without apology. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me, though.
I have a couple of friends who believe all gods point to the same deity. It's a beautiful thought but something I do not confess or believe as truth.


I'm not very sure about the choices you offered, perhaps the closest one would be the last. First, I suppose it will be more clear if I understand you on this: If there are no other people around, then the only 'sin' would be such things as wasting resources, mistreating animals, etc. If we assume that this person does not do any of these things (due to belief in God, or a basic realisation that he better not if he wants to survive), then is he sinless? He is following the first commandment, as well as whatever of the 2nd is applicable. Does he need Jesus's sacrifice if he has no sins to atone for (not even pride, he doesn't consider himself better for not sinning)- what happens if he consciously does not accept it? Or is he doomed to sinning anyway?


Ah ok, I see now. In a what if scenario, an isolated human wouldn't lie- they have nobody to lie to. They wouldn't commit fornication- there is nobody to commit fornication with. They wouldn't steal- their little world would be their oyster. So, I would have to say, 'There is none righteous, no not one.' Not to mention, 'Even your thoughts will condemn you.' So I would definitely have to say that person on the island, assuming they know of Jesus as you claim, would still be under sin, guilty of sin, and would be held accountable to accept Jesus. Yes.


[edit on 9/24/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 05:40 PM
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That's an incredibly irresponsible message. It makes this world a worse place to live when you let people do bad things because they believe they are too weak to resist them and it doesn't matter whether they resist or not because they'll get a reward either way. It's lame. I don't like it at all. I'd like to remove that from the minds of Christians, and all other beliefs that feel it's ok to do bad things for whatever bull crap religious reason they want to use.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by ThePiemaker
 


Thank you very much for your thoughts. It's always nice to get a different perspective. However, your concerns seem to be skewed in a sense on a couple of things:

1).


It makes this world a worse place to live when you let people do bad things because they believe they are too weak to resist them...


We are specifically told to resist temptation, turn away from sin, and to bear good fruit. I don't know where this 'Oh boy! Christians can go out and rape, murder, and pillage because 'they're saved!' extreme keeps coming from. Atheists don't even run around doing such things 'because they can.' That would seriously sound like the passage where Jesus talks about people professing Him with their lips but denying Him in their heart and that some people will have a form of godliness but they 'know not the Father nor I.' Not to mention we will be known by our fruits.

2).


and it doesn't matter whether they resist or not because they'll get a reward either way.


We are specifically told salvation is a gift but the heavenly rewards are earned. We are told our works on earth will be tested by fire- but this is for rewards only- not salvation. Salvation is Free.

Hope that helps. lol That's my opinion on things at least.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 06:22 PM
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Cute video! You know where I stand on the issue, so instead of throwing myself to the lions, I'll just leave it at that. However, I can see it from a different viewpoint, and has some merit, but not in the way most will see it. Those sent to the right side, see ya next time! You get what I mean, Ashley? Getting to the left side, however, is much more complicated, and takes a lot more time than... wait, I wasn't going to get in this one!



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 01:58 AM
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Originally posted by AshleyD

Great questions. We're told we are saved through grace, that it is not according to good works 'lest any man should boast,' that our righteousness is as filthy rags, and when the apostles (who were Jewish and used to the strict rules of OT law) asked Jesus what they needed to to do be saved, Jesus said, 'Believe in the one who was sent [Him].'

So that is how we are saved.


im not refuting you per say, but they is a few scriptures that bring more light to the subject

james 2:[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

what exactly is this scripture saying?

¨the devils¨ or demons know the truth. they were in existence before the earth was made, likely they had a close personal relationship with god before forsaking their positions to take human wifes. likely too they are even able to see god in a literal sense (being as he is a spirit).

in short, there are no atheist demons or demons of ¨other¨ denominations. they believe but are not saved because their ¨works¨ earn them the death sentence they await.

so why does james compare them to imperfect humans who cant help but sin? because works are a part of salvation. notice i said ¨part¨.

the illustration jesus used was an invitation to dinner. the invitation was free just as god´s grace is free. but being invited doesnt mean one is saved. in the illustration many chose not to come, eventually the blind and the lame and sick would invited to the feast. there was action required if one was to receive the invitation, they had to show up.

one can lose their invitation also.

2 peter 2 :[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

a person who presumes to be saved and yet goes on sinning is not saved. grace MUST be backed up by works and repentance otherwise its like receiving an invitation and not attending the event.

consider too that it is dangerous to presume salvation by grace, one should not think they should try any less harder not to sin

jude [4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

do i agree that grace = salvation? to an extent yes, but the bible is very clear that it must be backed by works.

its like an origami class with children and jesus is the teacher. none of the kids will ever make a crane as clean or as neat or as refined as jesus´ but at least they try their best. can we really expect jesus to allow a passing grade to the children that dont even try? or who feel a plane is a better creation? or maybe those who decide drawing on the paper is more fun?

-----------------

i also wanted to address a different facet of this discussion. ¨heaven isnt fair¨

deut 32:[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

in a weird way, the statement that salvation isnt fair couldnt be farther from the truth. it is fair, it is the ultimate fair. just maybe not fair by our standards (nobody feels it is fair when they are wrong)

i brought up some points in other threads but in this case i want to highlight a particular point.

if one believes that all people who believe in christ go to heaven and all those who do not go to eternal torment in hell forever, then it is in direct contradiction with deut 32:4. there is simply more to it than that.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 04:57 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Miriam, you too know my viewpoint and my dislike of the use of scripture due to the constant mixing of literal and metaphorical interpretation and alleged inference when used to support one's opinion / beliefs etc.
However, you have at least addressed my point about Acts and Deeds.

Surely this omnipotent, omniescent 'God' will recognise that a death bed conversion to a belief in Christ does not cancel out a life of 'sinning' and wrong doing?
Acts and Deeds.
Anyone can spout dogma; it is very, very easy.
It is how one lives one's life that counts.
The rest is just smoke in mirrors and complete cod#!

If there is a 'God' and some Judgement Day with passage into the most elite Private Members Club, (which seems to me may be quite boring but hey, each to their own), then I suspect that 'God' will judge us on just that; Acts and Deeds and not the blind acceptance of a dogmatic creed, derived from dubious sources and heavily edited by man which is so open to individual interpretation and manipulation or blind faith in 'Jesus Saves'.

If I am wrong then so be it.
At least I will have been true to myself and will have been judged on my own morals, values, acts and deeds and my own free will.

[edit on 25/9/08 by Freeborn]



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by ThePiemaker
That's an incredibly irresponsible message. It makes this world a worse place to live when you let people do bad things because they believe they are too weak to resist them and it doesn't matter whether they resist or not because they'll get a reward either way. It's lame. I don't like it at all. I'd like to remove that from the minds of Christians, and all other beliefs that feel it's ok to do bad things for whatever bull crap religious reason they want to use.


WOW, that's one of the biggest straw man arguments I've EVER heard!

Christians cannot continue sinning, Jesus called sinners to REPENT.

If a "Christian" continues to sin, that person is NOT following Jesus Christ.

Nice try.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 07:33 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 





Surely this omnipotent, omniescent 'God' will recognise that a death bed conversion to a belief in Christ does not cancel out a life of 'sinning' and wrong doing?


If you think that, you may want to look at the example of the thief on the cross hanging alongside Jesus. All he had was belief that Jesus was the Son of God, and that He alone had the power to save Him. Jesus told that thief.

"Today you will join me in paradise." (Paraphrase)

This thief:

1. Had no good works after his ask for forgiveness.
2. He was not baptized.
3. He did not partake of communion.

He simply had faith in the only begotten Son of God. Jesus Christ, Sola Fide.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 09:16 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Er wait, hold the phone, that didn't mean that the thief would go to heaven. it meant he would go with Jesus to paradise.

not necessarily the kingdom of heaven


It is sometimes also identified with the bosom of Abraham, the abode of the righteous dead awaiting Judgment Day. In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus tells a penitent criminal crucified alongside him that they will be together in paradise that day.


he got a slight reprieve not necessarily a death bead confession and conversion switch o chango bingo bango your going to heaven.

I am going to stand at the entrance of heaven laughing at all the Christians as they walk in and see a bunch of Jews, Hindu, Pagan, and Muslims hanging out in heaven.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by whatukno
 


The thief was WITH Jesus.
Jesus stayed in the belly of the Earth 3 days before he ascended.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


The theif on the cross

[edit on 25-9-2008 by Clearskies]



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by Clearskies
 


So thiefs are beggars?
really?

Boy did you read that way wrong. Just because you believe in Christ does not make it an all access pass to sin against god every day of your life. You have to also abide by the word and Gods law as well. The video in the OP is completely distorted.

Basicly what this is saying is that you can be a complete (beep) all your life but just because you believe in Christ you get an automatic pass into heaven. Thats just a flawed argument. You have to also abide by the word of God in order to gain access into the kingdom of Heaven. The belief in Christ alone does not grant you an all clear by the almighty.

[edit on 9/25/2008 by whatukno]



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Er wait, hold the phone, that didn't mean that the thief would go to heaven. it meant he would go with Jesus to paradise.

not necessarily the kingdom of heaven




Well no, no one was in heaven until Jesus died and brought them out into heaven. That happened after he died. That day the thief did join Jesus in Paradise, that is true... Jesus also gathered them all and ascended to heaven on the 3rd day...

you're forgetting:

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." You and I are correct, the thief was with Jesus that day in paradise. You fail to admit that Jesus didn't rise to heaven to be with the Father until 3 days later.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



That still doesnt mean that the thief went to heaven, it meant that he went to Paradice, Paradice is a different place than heaven or hell. It's a waiting room for souls awaiting judgement day.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by whatukno
 





You have to also abide by the word and Gods law as well.


That's "legalism", exactly what the Pharisees were preaching. You must remember, salvation is a free gift of grace. Works lead to rewards on the day of judgment for the believers. A man with many good works unto God is given many rewards, a man with none has no rewards in heaven.

You cannot confuse "salvation" with "rewards", they are entirely two different things.



posted on Sep, 25 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So your saying that the child rapist/killer just because he believes in Christ will assend to heaven but be given less rewards in the afterlife?

Thats not only silly, it's against gods will.



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