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If Hell is Unfair... Then so is Heaven.

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posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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I saw this video last night and it really moved me. It also got me to thinking. We've all heard it said that Hell is unfair and how there are unbelievers who act better than many Christians. Well, it looks like Heaven is just as 'unfair' as Hell is. It's not about fairness- it's about grace.

I'd like to share this with everyone. It moved me to the point of goose bumps. Slightly under three minutes:



I'm sure there will be some who will disagree with this or even be offended by it- and that's ok. But here it is anyways. I found it to be so very beautiful. It's a gift we're all offered. Even to those of us 'not good enough.' The twist at the end is very moving. No, Heaven is not 'fair' nor is grace. But it's still available for the asking.

[edit on 9/23/2008 by AshleyD]




posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


That's exactly the way it works. It really the most exceptional value. In fact it's the greatest thing of all time. The deal of he century -- uh millennium -- no... eternity. Just step up and ask for it.



posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 04:22 PM
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Oh that was good. I really enjoyed that. Well people might be offened but it is true. But thru Jesus will people get to heaven. Sometimes even I question myself on what is good enough. But that was very funny.



posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 04:28 PM
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Beautiful and so true!
I used to think that if I had good intentions and tried hard to be a good person, that I would go to heaven.
It was when I heard a preacher about what I would say to Jesus, who I didn't believe in.
I met Him that NIGHT by praying!
He took ALL my sins and loved me, like I was PERFECT!

Thanks ASHLEY!
And don't get tired of the sticks in the mud!

[edit on 23-9-2008 by Clearskies]



posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 05:53 PM
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Really amazing Ashley...I just love the ending.



posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


So... Jesus is your Bail-buddy?

You can do all kinds of horrible stuff, and as long as you believe in Jesus he'll get you out on bail so you can run-off?

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me that God would work like that...


It was a pretty well-made video, though, and fairly entertaining.



posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by Core90
 


No.
You see, after you become a christian, you get a new heart with new desires so that you don't WANT to sin.
You also become disciples of Christ and He trains us in good works!
Jesus KNOWS how to 'take us to the woodshed' for a good 'whoopin' when we need it!



posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by Core90
So... Jesus is your Bail-buddy?


Yes- His promise and decision. 'Paid in Full.' But He not only willingly paid the bail, He accepted the sentence for us.


You can do all kinds of horrible stuff, and as long as you believe in Jesus he'll get you out on bail so you can run-off?


'If you love me, you will obey my commandments.' It doesn't mean that we will never sin again but that's grace. It's beautiful.

If Jesus had given us an endless list of rites and rituals to follow in order to obtain salvation, the critics would be accusing Him of making things 'too hard.' Not to mention the canard, 'Christianity is all about control.' However, when He makes it free, offers us grace, and issues mercy, we hear the criticism above.

It's your right to be critical of this but that is the way it is. It sounds so ungrateful to me to actually hear complaints about being given mercy. But of course, God is cruel because of Hell. Go figure. lol


I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me that God would work like that...


'There is a way that seems right unto man but the end leads to destruction.'


It was a pretty well-made video, though, and fairly entertaining.


Glad you enjoyed it.


 


To everyone else: So glad you all enjoyed it and it moved you in the same way.



posted on Sep, 23 2008 @ 09:43 PM
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Great find Ashley.

And salvation is very simple, Jesus paid the price we owe, all a man or woman needs to do is accept that payment that is freely offered by God.

It's a free gift because God loved us soo much.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

It's that simple.

Look at the thief on the cross, he believed on Jesus while he was hanging right beside him. He asked Jesus to remember him and what was Jesus's reply?

"Today you will join me in paradise."

All it takes is faith in Christ Jesus. No amount of good works are good enough, in fact, God sees all OUR "good deeds" as filthy rags.

When Jesus's blood covers our sins, God only sees Christ's righteousness when he looks at us, our slate is as white as snow.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 12:26 AM
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If heaven is going to be filled with religious zealots im going to enjoy hell very much.


Heck if half of the xtians I have met in my life are going to heaven, then im requesting hell.

[edit on 9/24/2008 by whatukno]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 12:41 AM
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I enjoyed that! I had a big smile on my face by the end.Lol

It is what it is!



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 05:29 AM
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So Tom is a child rapist and has brutalised many children and destroyed their lives.Before he dies he asks jesus for forgiveness and is accepted into heaven to live the rest of eternity in joy no questions asked.

Meanwhile Jerry is an atheist who lives a humble life, does his best in life and helps out as many people as he can.Before he dies he makes sure his family will be looked after and donates the rest of the money to some charity.He goes straight to hell to suffer for eternity with no reprieve.

So how is this fair again?
One man can be a monster his whole life yet has only to pay a little lip service at the end and gets the ultimate reward.The other man can be the nicest person to ever walk the earth and will be banished to hell for not being a hypocrite.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 05:40 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Ashley, I have immense respect for both you and your beliefs but sorry, that represents everything I find abhorent about Christianity!

I didn't ask anyone to die for me, indeed, I don't need anyone to.
I stand on my own two feet and wish to be judged, (if any such judgement will come) on my own acts and deeds alone.

The belief that God, (and I'm sure your aware of my doubts around this whole concept!), would be this arrogant is beyond me and this video portrays Christians as egotistical hypocrites, (something I know many are most certainly not).

That Christians believe that using their blind faith in a dogmatic creed or their use of their belief in Jesus is a get out Of Jail Free card and enables them to take the moral high ground over someone who has devoted their life to the welfare of their fellow human beings whilst lacking faith displays an arrogance beyond belief and displays a lack of 'grace' in my opinion.

Acts and deeds people.
That's what counts.

Sorry if i've upset anyone or derailed the thread in any way but I can not accept that a mass murderer who accepts God on his death bed has more right to entry into your Private Members Club rather than the Gandhi's etc of this world.

Just what sort of God do you believe in and why would he demand that????

[edit on 24/9/08 by Freeborn]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 06:56 AM
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Yep there's a lot of truth in that video. The only thing that gets me is that it seems the angry crowd will be right at a billion times bigger when standing before the true good-o-meter. It's everybody's choice though.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by Azador
So how is this fair again?


It's not. See my thread title.
According to our human logic, this seems totally unfair. And in away it is. However, Jesus said HE is the way- not good works. Not to mention he came for the 'sick' and not the well. He came to save the sinners and those who would humble themselves and acknowledge their need of a savior. Meanwhile, He ripped to shreds those who considered themselves righteous and who believed they had no need for a Savior.

Like the video said, 'That's why it's called Grace.' (Clemency, Pardon, etc.).

Let's look at a typical Christian. If you ask them point blank if they consider themselves a sinner, I've never seen one say 'No.' Due to the very fact we are Christians, it means we have acknowledged this fact and our need of a savior. We admit we are saved through Jesus- not our own power or righteous acts. However, I constantly see unbelievers say they are 'good people' or even better than the Christians. And according to our worldly standards they may be. But not according to God's standards and how He views our 'goodness' as filthy rags. ONLY Jesus' act on the cross and the personal acceptance of that act transforms us into 'good' in His eyes.

Remember the behavior of the pharisees in Jesus' time and contrast it with the behavior of the tax collectors, adulteress, and the sick. The former rejected Jesus because they thought they were righteous (when one little sin is all it takes for us not to be) yet the latter admitted their guilt and accepted Jesus' promise. Hope that helps.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
Ashley, I have immense respect for both you and your beliefs but sorry, that represents everything I find abhorent about Christianity!


I have immense respect for you, too, Freeborn. I know you don't believe what I do but that's ok. It's your right. You and I have always gotten along regardless. I'm sorry you find it abhorrent although I understand it is a VERY human opinion.



I didn't ask anyone to die for me, indeed, I don't need anyone to.
I stand on my own two feet and wish to be judged, (if any such judgement will come) on my own acts and deeds alone.


This kind of goes along with what I said before. Even in AA, one of the first things is to acknowledge we have a problem. Well, humanity has a huge problem and one of the first things we need to do is admit we have that problem. It's hard and humbling. But I understand your view and why you feel that way. I won't judge you for that.


The belief that God, (and I'm sure your aware of my doubts around this whole concept!), would be this arrogant is beyond me and this video portrays Christians as egotistical hypocrites, (something I know many are most certainly not).


I didn't see it that way. Look at all the people, especially the one who ran an orphanage in India, talk about the good things they did. Then look at the Christian walk up. He hangs his head in shame and doesn't even look the 'angel' in the eye. Then while all the others talked and talked, he remained silent because He knew he was in trouble. I'm not sure where the arrogance comes in. We're saying we are sinners in need. I see unbelievers say I'm good enough and am not in need.

Also, God is not arrogant. He is merciful. Let's put it this way. A judge has two criminals standing before him. He is so merciful he tells the criminals their slate will be wiped clean, a fresh start will be given, and all they have to do is admit their crimes and receive the pardon. One criminal says, 'Absolutely. I've done this, and this, and this. I don't deserve this pardon but I will accept it.' On the other hand, the other criminal says, 'No thanks! My crimes aren't THAT bad! I might have broken the law but I did some good things, too! Therefore, I don't need your pardon or mercy.' Well that person rejected that mercy willingly. It wasn't unjustly withheld from him.


That Christians believe that using their blind faith in a dogmatic creed or their use of their belief in Jesus is a get out Of Jail Free card and enables them to take the moral high ground over someone who has devoted their life to the welfare of their fellow human beings whilst lacking faith displays an arrogance beyond belief and displays a lack of 'grace' in my opinion.


Again, I don't see it as arrogance. Remember what it takes to become a Christian- the denial of the ego, dying to self, admitting we have sin, and accepting the need of a savior. Christians have all taken this leap and it takes going against the selfish flesh to do such a thing. Then go and ask someone who has 'dedicated their life to the welfare of their fellow human beings whilst lacking faith' if they are sinners and in need of a savior. They will tell you they don't even believe in sin and would most likely describe themselves as 'good.' And, again, by our worldly definitions they most certainly are. But I must ask, who is being arrogant in these two scenarios? It's just like what I told the poster above with the Pharisees vs. the tax collectors.


Sorry if i've upset anyone or derailed the thread in any way


Absolutely not.
I was fully expecting comments like this and they are totally understandable to look at this from human eyes. No problem at all and you are not derailing but asking question directly related to the subject at hand.



but I can not accept that a mass murderer who accepts God on his death bed has more right to entry into your Private Members Club rather than the Gandhi's etc of this world.

Just what sort of God do you believe in and why would he demand that????


'That's why it's called grace.'


[edit on 9/24/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 11:37 AM
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Somehow I think some Christians are going to be very surprised when they go on to the next world and find that their bigotry, hatred, vanity, pride and arrogance leads them straight to Lucifer's relm.

I'm not sure that Jesus will give a pass to those that use his name or the name of god to justify their own self richeousness.



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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Hello AshleyD!

I'm not sure I understand....there is a lot of see-sawing in the Bible between works and faith, but as far as I understand it, while works without faith may not be useful in the afterlife, faith without works is indicative of being just as useless. The works are a sign that the faith is real.


Originally posted by AshleyD
'If you love me, you will obey my commandments.' It doesn't mean that we will never sin again but that's grace. It's beautiful.

But if a person disobeys the commandments (by sinning), that means that they DON'T love Jesus. As far as I can see. I'm not sure about where that piece of scripture is quoted from, but I do know of this one: That to inherit eternal life, all one need do is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbour as yourself." I don't know about you, but as far as I can see, this means total, complete, and VOLUNTARY submission to God. If one disobeys these commandments, then all is lost, no? Nothing about being aided on the last day by Jesus's sacrifice.

This is one thing I am troubled with in the video, as well as in Christianity in general, I suppose- the presumption of guilt. The idea that no man (even with the help of God) can possibly be without sin. I've given the example of a Robinson Crusoe type character before: Someone who's lived on an island all alone, stranded since childhood. Someone who cannot possibly commit any sin, because there is no one to commit a sin to. The only problem is that they don't accept that Jesus died for his sins (although he would believe in God, and love God with all his heart, soul, strength and mine, and has no way to follow the 2nd commandment, because he has no neighbour).

Another point (which may be slightly off-topic, because it's not mentioned in the video) is the idea of Original Sin. If this concept is true, then even my example Robinson Crusoe would be doomed. But then again, IS IT TRUE? Because the Bible tells us that no man would die for the sins of his father. Each man would die for his own sins.

Interesting video, nonetheless!

[edit on 24-9-2008 by babloyi]



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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very interesting video. thank you ashley



posted on Sep, 24 2008 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Thanks for stopping by. So glad you enjoyed it.


reply to post by babloyi
 


Great questions. We're told we are saved through grace, that it is not according to good works 'lest any man should boast,' that our righteousness is as filthy rags, and when the apostles (who were Jewish and used to the strict rules of OT law) asked Jesus what they needed to to do be saved, Jesus said, 'Believe in the one who was sent [Him].'

So that is how we are saved. Then it switches over into 'walking the walk.' This is clear by things Jesus said like, 'If you love me you will obey my commandments,' or what we see in the NT with passages like bearing good fruit or testing each other by the fruit we produce. We WILL sin. This is very clear in Paul's epistles where he admits no matter how hard he tries, he can't keep from sinning. However, once we are saved, I do not believe this is a salvation issue- only a 'walk' issue. To say that our salvation (not our walk but our salvation) depends on good works supplemented by faith is to cheapen what Jesus did on the cross or to say that the death of Jesus was not enough. This is what grace is all about.

We cannot help our sinful state and this is made very clear but we are admonished to resist temptation. Not that we won't ever give in- it's human to fall. However, once you are under the blood of Christ, your sins are covered past, present, and future.

So, Grace = Salvation.
Doing good works and following the teachings of Christ = Walking the walk and a sign that we love Jesus and are grateful for what He did for us and do not want to take advantage of the price He paid for us.

Original sin and Robinson Crusoe. I'm assuming you are asking what happens to the people who never heard of Jesus? I have mixed feelings on this and have spoken about it before. Some Christians agree and some disagree with me. Knowing what I know about God, I know He does not negate one of His qualities in favor over the other. In this case, the relevant attributes are mercy and judgment.

He will judge those who knew yet still rejected Jesus' gift but as for those who never heard of Jesus, I personally believe He does not sacrifice His attribute of mercy for judgment in this case. On the opposite end of the spectrum, we are told the existence of God is so obvious, that He has embedded the knowledge of His existence into ALL of our hearts, and the test then becomes do we accept that revelation and Him or do we resort to stifling that still, inner voice or creating a false god in place of the God who is convicting our hearts. I have mixed feelings on the subject but I personally do not see God sending someone to Hell who never knew. Just my two cents. The people who know but reject Jesus are described as being 'without excuse.' That leads me to beleive the people who never knew have 'an excuse.' That is my logic but of course human knowledge can be flawed.

Hope that helps. I wouldn't preach that in a sermon because I am held accountable for my teachings but if you want to know my personal thoughts on it, that is how I see it.


If a Christian sees it in a different way, they are more than welcome to answer your question with their own perspective.



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