Japanese Begin Working On Space Elevator

reply to post by DisabledVet



Point well received and acknowledged I agree especially having walked around that man made island myself.

I guess I’m at a loss for just how they will unravel a series of cables to and from space.
I mean pain in the ass to take it to space, less so to drop it from orbit.
However to drop it from orbit would you not need to have some kind of pseudo factory to manufacture the cable or whatever material is being used to ferry the elevator up and down?
Which leads me to another question, If you do have to make your own makeshift space port/station/factory, will you have to constantly shuttle resources to and from the earth?

I know the cost of a standard NASA launch borders on the mentally ill so undoubtedly it would be the same if not more for the Japanese. Plus with the international tension over possible “TERROR” attacks on building and bridges would it not also be viewed by supporters and investors as a high risk target not worth investing in?

Also does anyone know what the difference between a space elevator and an orbital tower are is there any?


[edit on 23-9-2008 by snowen20]

The satellite can't be in geosynchronous orbit. Think about it. Anything attached to the satellite adds weight (since it heads towards earth) and therefore the centre of gravity is no longer in the geo orbit. In order for this to work they have to build the satellite from the top down and balance the increasing drag downwards with a higher orbit which pulls outwards. In the end you have an elevator which if it broke in the middle would "throw" the satellite out into space. There is no way any structure is totally rigid. This means it flexes. This means the linear distance between the end points contracts. Thus pulls the satellite out of orbit. Again the only solution is to have the tension pulling outward from a heavy satellite in a high orbit.

Can it be done? Probably. But only from space downwards. So Japan needs a few resusable shuttles first. I wonder if Richard Branson is involved

100's of Billions in greed and failure bailouts... Nasa gets 15-17 Billion total a year.

Whats in space?

besides small asteroids which:

"Early evidence suggests that there are trillions of dollars' worth of minerals and metals buried in asteroids that come close to the Earth

Its just the "Key to the Space economy"

asteroid mining

According to astrogeologist Jeffrey Kargel, a single metallic asteroid one half-mile in diameter could easily contain some 400,000 tons of platinum and related metals. Kargel calculated the Earth value of that cargo at $5 trillion

wow...one asteroid... a couple of shuttles to mine it, that would just about pay off the debt of the whole us economy

and... we just spent almost a trillion on bailing out... the Auto Industry, but we are running out of OIL to fuel the cars that way anyway...

and it would cost only 9 Billion in research for a space elevator...


hrrrrmmm

I need to think for a second

wait

I am having a moment

I think I just came to a conclusion here

OMG ARRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHAAAAAA

THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE IN AMERICA ARE ALL ABSOLUTELY BAT$h1t CRAZY!!!

Here's our plan for what to do with asteroids...

No Sissy Space Elevator... No 5 trillion in Ore

VAIL, Colorado - NASA has begun a fact-finding appraisal of how best to detect, track, catalogue and characterize near-Earth asteroids and comets--and what can be done to deflect an object found on course to strike our planet.

Hahahahahahahaha

I'm going frackin insane now....

USA Blow up things in Space

"Roger Huston Asteroid xgsBinLaden 90 is head to Earth... composed of 5 Trillion tons of Platinum..."

"Roger that lock and load lazer systems"

"there are Japanese scientists on the space ladder extracting ore they say they will mine it before it ever colides"

"roger lock and load freedom is at stake, we will have to sacrifice the scientists"

"afirmative comenceing operation Platinum Global Winter"

"Roger inform the media to excpect 10 years of metallic dust in orbit to alter global weather patterns"

"affirmative, launch first strike on Canada to secure water supply for duration of the crisis"

"affirmative, nice knowing you bob"




Wow... a space elevator 9 Billion... almost a Trillion for, the auto industry...
we spend less than 9 Billion for a Month in Iraq!!!!

Is it Me?

Am I missing something?

It has to be me right, no way our leaders can be this damn stupid compared to the Japanese right?

I must be missing something right? Bail out defunct useless companies so that Americans can pay... for useless industries and fight over a commodity that will run dry sooner or later and spend 100x more than it would cost to build a space elevator and run platinum down an elevator all day...

Is there a Prosac thread I can go to?

Originally posted by malcr
The satellite can't be in geosynchronous orbit. Think about it. Anything attached to the satellite adds weight (since it heads towards earth) and therefore the centre of gravity is no longer in the geo orbit. In order for this to work they have to build the satellite from the top down and balance the increasing drag downwards with a higher orbit which pulls outwards. In the end you have an elevator which if it broke in the middle would "throw" the satellite out into space. There is no way any structure is totally rigid. This means it flexes. This means the linear distance between the end points contracts. Thus pulls the satellite out of orbit. Again the only solution is to have the tension pulling outward from a heavy satellite in a high orbit.

Can it be done? Probably. But only from space downwards. So Japan needs a few resusable shuttles first. I wonder if Richard Branson is involved

First of all that "weight would only be the distance from the point in the atmosphere where gravity takes effect. Everything above that would be weightless.

Further, the earth is spinning...at an incredible rate what happens when you tie a rock to a piece of string, hold in in your hands ant start spinning around....notice the tension? Same effect in with the space elevator.

But also satellites don't stay in space because of zero gravity, as there is gravity in space or else the satellites would fly off into space... its the speed of the satellite that keeps it from falling into earth.

The space part of the elevator in geostationary orbit could extend the cable well into space behind it to increase the tension on the cable eliminating the need to position the space platform further out into space.

Determining the amount of tension needed would be the the mass weight of the cable in earths gravity and the maximum payload capacity of the "climber" and the climber itself plus a "safety" margin. Also one could have a counterweight that stays docked at the space platform and could be sent out on the trailing cable behind the space station to counter the initial drag on the cable by the "climber" coming up from Earth.

The problem is that eventually a satellite or piece of space junk would hit the cable and cause all sorts of problems. This must be addressed.

BUT! The further the "climber" moves away from Earth the less energy it needs to exert to overcome the effects of gravity. Towards the end of it's trip, the "climber" would actually need to be slowed down as like a washer on that string you are spinning would be what would happen to the "climber" once it began to break free of earth gravity.

Yet another issue is the weight of the "climber" as it climbs will pull the cable in the opposite direction of the earths rotation as it is experiencing drag kind of looking like pulling on a bow when shooting an arrow.

Once the "climber" escaped earths gravity the natural force of counterweight in space would cause the cable to straighten back out.

Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by DisabledVet

 

Point well received and acknowledged I agree especially having walked around that man made island myself.

I guess I’m at a loss for just how they will unravel a series of cables to and from space.
I mean pain in the ass to take it to space, less so to drop it from orbit.
However to drop it from orbit would you not need to have some kind of pseudo factory to manufacture the cable or whatever material is being used to ferry the elevator up and down?
Which leads me to another question, If you do have to make your own makeshift space port/station/factory, will you have to constantly shuttle resources to and from the earth?




[edit on 23-9-2008 by snowen20]

Yes you would need the raw materials brought to any factory in space unless we we're able to use stuff floating in space as raw materials. As you made the cable you could roll it up like a garden hose behind the space platform and then attach rockets to the end to drag it down to earth.Space is cool as it is only environment where you can make PERFECTLY spherical ball bearings and other such item as gravity would have no effect on their manufacture...

If due to logistics you HAD to bring the cable up from Earth, you could use a blimp first, and or a high altitude balloon to drag it up into the upper atmosphere and then have just enough hanging from outer space to connec it it using oh I don't know..some fancy robot grabber thingy on the end of the cable coming from space that would "catch" the balloon or have rockets as part of the balloon apparatus that would ignite and further drag it out of Earths atmosphere and into space where it could be grabbed and attached to the station.

[edit on 23-9-2008 by DisabledVet]

[edit on 23-9-2008 by DisabledVet]

reply to post by DisabledVet


Stared, good info and understanding.

It really is not so far from reality to accomplish this.

All of my comedy aside i feel dismayed, by our apathy to be the ones innovating these fantastic technologies...

How depressing will it be in the depression while I'm depressed about the depression in my shack to see on the wide screen through the cut out square hole of my shack to see Japan successfully build the space elevator.

bu hao...

bu hao...

Well all that I understand, I guess what I mean is in the absence of a proper refinery to mine for suitable resources if that were an option would have to be constructed, like wise that which im referring to as being transported from earth to orbit would be all the necessary tools and machinery needed to manufacture in high earth orbit.

I do not doubt we have the technology as humans, I just doubt one country has the resources to pull it off, both financially and industrially.

My reasoning for this comes from a skyscraper they were wanting to build in the bay of Hong Kong, it was supposed to be about a mile high and engineers at that time said that it would put a hold on the earths steel production just to pull enough steel for that one construct alone.

Specifically they stated that it would stop automobile production for the space of maybe two years.
In addition they also stated that it would require the budget of several countries though that may be because several countries were entered into the endevour.
But in any case, trying to make the transition from conventional space travel and construction to a more technologically advanced means of travel propulsion and consturction in orbit that is economically feasible is quite a challenge, especially in an economy on the fritze.

Lets say they allready know what they will constuct it out of and the materials used, they still have to transport them into orbit and like wise build a mobile space platform to work from nothing to fancy but a feat none the less.
then there is the cost of transporting skilled laborers that are highly trained in said construction unless they plan on using robots or the materials are somehow prefabricated.
I dont know It sounds really nice but I think it is still a few years away.
I hope they prove me wrong though as I would like to go into space in my life time for a nominal fee.
By the way sorry for typos and poor grammer I am getting dressed for work.

[edit on 23-9-2008 by snowen20]

[edit on 23-9-2008 by snowen20]

yeah several countires

or half what the US alone spent in the war over the last 7 years

a Billion a week would suffice just fine

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Makes me wonder what we could do if we stopped fighting wars and spent the money o n something useful, but then again who hasn’t considered that? 

I wonder how much such a construct would cost being as it must be a total pain in the ass to run tests on and simulate on speculation alone.


[edit on 23-9-2008 by snowen20]

The Brits achieved this years ago (on a small scale), under the code WV1. It involved Tesla-type wireless transmission of power, thus circumventing the inherent issues around the tensile strength of gargantuan cables.

No-one has yet been able to fully explain the apparent indications of American input into the project, although it has been suggested that the evidence has been tampered with, in much the same way as the 'Enigma' film portrayed the US military solving the German enigma codes in WWII, whereas in reality this was an entirely British endeavour.

Documentary Evidence

(IHMS)

Not for long and we will all be wearing Mobile Suits

Its a nice thought but It would surely be almost impossible!!! I mean
22-000 miles above the earth? Thats ridiculous. Imagine if it fell lol!!! Nope not a chance. This will never happen. Well in this century anyway.

Originally posted by malcr
The satellite can't be in geosynchronous orbit. Think about it. Anything attached to the satellite adds weight (since it heads towards earth) and therefore the centre of gravity is no longer in the geo orbit.

Very very good point!

I don't agree that it absolutely can't be done from orbit down tho, cos if is at all possible to start building from then I think that would defiantly be the cheapest way.

I would say that in the initial stages the geo stationary platform would be so massive that the relative mass of the (at this point) very thin cable and the spider like spinning robots would not make a difference - I kinda see the cable having a fair amount of slack.

As the whole rig builds you could have some sort of pully system at either end, this could play out excess, or take in to keep a correct tension. The precise orbit of the geo platform could be altered using conventional rocket moters just like they do now (ok something more perminant like nuke jets (which do exist!! dirty things they are) could be a better idea)

And also once mass is added to the rig - a corresponding mass could be blasted from whatever they are using for a counterweight. I'm all for this idea! I want to do an orbital base jump for my 90th!

A Space Elevator! I don't see how such a thing could work. Wouldn't the weight of the lifting body simply pull the satellite out of orbit into the atmosphere where it would burn up? The only way to combat that would be if the satellite fired rockets while it was hauling the carriage up into space. Then there's the weight factor. The stronger and longer you made the cables the more the weight would increase, and so on.
Mind you, wasn't dear old Arthur C Clarke who first came up with the space elevator theory and he spawned the communications satellite!

The coil of the lines would be so large once you get to the top. where and how would it be possible to house a coil with 22,000 miles worth of cordage? i have seen coils shorter than half a mile be bigger than mack trucks.

also, lets just pretend that it travels at 200 miles an hour. thats still 4.58 days on the elevator.

Maybe the LHC will show us new tech. maybe some sort of magnetic plasma stream, similar to a tractor beam. that way you wouldnt have to lower the lift everytime you have to take more crap up to space.

anything with magnets. gravity is fairly weak, but almost impossible to breach here on earth. magnets can do this trick with ease though.

Originally posted by drsmooth23
The coil of the lines would be so large once you get to the top. where and how would it be possible to house a coil with 22,000 miles worth of cordage? i have seen coils shorter than half a mile be bigger than mack trucks.

I think the Idea is that you would never have to house the cable anywhere - nor would you have to transport it....

You would stockpile enough material for the initial cord (very thin - like a kite string) up on the satellite, once that cable is constructed by the anatomous robots they can anchor it here on Earth.

From that point you only have to send the robots with the material for their task - over time the cable will be built. It is quite an organic process in a way, building and repairing as you go.

Originally posted by drsmooth23

also, lets just pretend that it travels at 200 miles an hour. thats still 4.58 days on the elevator.

That reminded me of an article somebody linked from this thread.

Audacious & Outrageous: Space Elevators

"Yes, ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard NASA's Millennium-Two Space Elevator. Your first stop will be the Lunar-level platform before we continue on to the New Frontier Space Colony development. The entire ride will take about 5 hours, so sit back and enjoy the trip.

So I guess this elevator will be speeding along at an average speed of 4,400 mph!

Not sure if the author of the article made that up or if that's what they're shooting for.

[edit on 9/23/2008 by Keyhole]

I suspect humans might actually outsmart themselves on this idea.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


I'm disappointed also that we didn't undergo this endeavor first, but honestly I'm just glad that SOMEONE has started work on it. I imagine the U.S. will share our research with them to build on the research that we have already done on carbon nano tubes for the cabling.

I'm most excited about the technology and that mankind is finally making the science fiction into science fact.