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Is the Devil really that bad? This could change the way you think of Christianity

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posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 04:11 AM
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Someone has pretty much already said this, but I'll reiterate seeing as no one seems to have payed any attention to them.
God created the devil. Whatever name you use for him.
God, as he is presented in the bible, and throughout most of Christianity is omniscient, and omnipotent, and many other omni's that we don't even know about yet.

But in particular, for the sake of this argument, he is omniscient...

If he knows everything, don't you think that he knew what the devil would do even before he created him? And knowing that, he still created him. And the devil acts as he was made to act from the moment that he was created by God. The devil would have no control over that. How would doing what he was created to do make him evil?
And if you wish to refute all that I have just said, than invariably, God must not know everything. Or God must be evil himself to knowingly create something that is so evil.
But then we're back to the question of weather the devil is evil.
In my personal opinion, people use him as a scapegoat.
"The devil made me do it" and so on.
But the real question is... if you believe in an omniscient God how can you also believe in free will? Or an eternal hell? Or that the devil is anything but some poor shmuck of an angel that got dealt a crap hand in the great poker game of existence?

More importantly, why does the spell checker on this thing want me to capitalize Christianity, but doesn't give a fluff if I capitalize God or not?

Just saying...




posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 06:53 AM
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reply to post by sir_chancealot
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: You ask and I quote "Who are the great Satanists that have started hospitals, orphanages, helped the poor, the sick, the widows, etc.? Anyone have a list?"...and although I don't possess a list [thanks for inspiring me ], I do have a single suggestion and that is the Roman Emperor Nero...[LINK], who it has been suggested was the person referred to as bearing the number of the beast [i.e.#666] [LINK].

I post the following information from the 1st wiki link...
"ADMINISTRATIVE POLICIES...

Over the course of his reign, Nero often made rulings that pleased the lower class. Nero was criticized as being obsessed with being popular.

Nero began his reign in 54 by promising the Senate more autonomy. In this first year, he forbade others to refer to him with regard to enactments, for which he was praised by the Senate. Nero was known for being hands-off and spending his time visiting brothels and taverns during this period.

In 55, Nero began taking on a more active role as an administrator. He was consul four times between 55 and 60. During this period, some ancient historians speak fairly well of Nero and contrast it with his later rule.

Under Nero, restrictions were put on the amount of bail and fines. Also, fees for lawyers were limited. There was a discussion in the Senate on the misconduct of the freedmen class, and a strong demand was made that patrons should have the right of revoking freedom. Nero supported the freedmen and ruled that patrons had no such right. The Senate tried to pass a law in which the crimes of one slave applied to all slaves within a household. Nero vetoed the measure. After tax collectors were accused of being too harsh to the poor, Nero transferred collection authority to lower commissioners. Nero banned any magistrate or procurator from exhibiting public entertainment for fear that the venue was being used as a method to sway the populace. Additionally, there were many impeachments and removals of government officials along with arrests for extortion and corruption. When further complaints arose that the poor were being overly taxed, Nero attempted to repeal all indirect taxes. The Senate convinced him this action would bankrupt the public treasury. As a compromise, taxes were cut from 4.5% to 2.5%. Additionally, secret government tax records were ordered to become public. To lower the cost of food imports, merchant ships were declared tax-exempt.
Nero's abandoned Corinth canal

Nero built a number of gymnasiums and theaters and had performers dress in Greek clothing. Enormous gladiatorial shows were held. Nero also established the quinquennial Neronia. The festival included games, poetry and theater. Historians indicate that there was a belief that theater was for the lower-class and led to immorality and laziness. Others looked down upon Greek influence. Some questioned the large public expenditure on entertainment.

In 64, Rome burned. Nero enacted a public relief effort as well as significant reconstruction. A number of other major construction projects occurred in Nero's late reign. Nero had the marshes of Ostia filled with rubble from the fire. He erected the large Domus Aurea. In 67, Nero attempted to have a canal dug at the Isthmus of Corinth. Ancient historians state that these projects and others exacerbated the drain on the State's budget.

The economic policy of Nero is a point of debate among scholars. According to ancient historians, Nero's construction projects were overly extravagant and the large number of expenditures under Nero left Italy "thoroughly exhausted by contributions of money" with "the provinces ruined."
Modern historians, though, note that the period was riddled with deflation and that it is likely that Nero's spending came in the form of public works projects and charity intended to ease economic troubles."

So Nero was sorta a nice bloke if you weren't a Christian or a Hebrew!

Personal Disclosure: I will post my list to you in u2u when I've got 9 more as 10 seems to be a large enough population for you to possibly accept and for me to be able to provide relatively quickly. Please u2u me asap if this is not acceptable.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 07:04 AM
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reply to post by ...and justice for some
 


What do I think? Well.. If Im going to play along here with all this good and evil stuff..
I would say the Devil.. AKA Satan is large and in charge of most faiths today.
Misunderstood? Never.. The Devil is all about tricks of the trade. Make you feel pity or misunderstanding for the beast. When the whole time its a manipulation to get you to empower it.

Satan runs most churches.. Satan rules the Earth, and if you allow that essence power over you.. Then you will have the Wool pulled over your eyes like so many devoted followers who hate others.

So many faiths today HATE.. Absolute hate twords gays, absolute HATE to anyone who says otherwise..

Why is that? If anything I think most people Misunderstand GOD.

They fully have been dooped by the Devil..



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 07:07 AM
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For what it's worth and some may find it an interesting concept.
I see God and the Devil a bit like the mother and father symbols.

God being the mother who wants only the best for us and the devil being more like the loving father who also wants what is best for us.

Now both want what is best for us but both have a different method of doing it.
Your mother will realize that in order for you to eat your meal, she must deny you the treats that will spoil your meal.
Your father on the other hand will not want to see you wanting for anything and will allow you the treats reguardless of the fact that you will not eat your meal.

So I believe that Satan or the devil will be the one who makes all our dreams and wishes to come true.
God will make us wait and teach us restraint and allow us our treats after our meals. God will allow us to keep dreaming and hoping, for without dreams and hope you have nothing.
Look at how many miserable rich people there are out there who have everything money can buy and they still want more, because they cant find happines even with their dreams coming true.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 07:19 AM
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reply to post by 44soulslayer
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: You ask and I quote "How can there be an omnipotent god who allows a devil to exist?"....and I think [Please correct me if I am wrong OK
] that you are using the incorrect yardstick [i.e. Omnipotence = 100% power] when I think you might actually be wanting to use this yardstick [i.e. Omnibenevolence = 100% positively moral or good], because under that yardstick that I am providing you are absolutely correct in your logic but if I use your yardstick then I see no problems with any God creating a devil if that God is Capricious and maybe even Malevolent!!!

As to the rest of your excellent questions, well I'll get back to you asap OK.

Personal Disclosure: It can make 100% clear sense if you use the appropriate tool for the job. So my question to you would be "Is the use of the Omnibenevolent yardstick a valid tool to use at all and why?".



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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reply to post by sir_chancealot
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: You ask and I quote "Ok, let's apply another test. What society, where no one is forced to "support the weak" have grown beyond being a third world country? Or, put another way, what country has become a 1st world country by ignoring "the weak"?"....and might I suggest ancient Sparta for a time was a 1st world country of that time that sorta lived up to the Maxim of ignoring the "weak" and might I add it also eventually cost them this status!

2ndly I fully accept your task RE:"Here is your task, should you choose to accept it: Name 5 good things that Satanism has brought into this world. Let's define "good things" as things which the majority of people would believe are "good". Can you even do that?"...Yes I certainly can, as follows....

1] Knowledge of Good. Nice to know when we're on the right track! Good thing huh!
2] Knowledge of Bad. So we can avoid it! Good thing huh!
3] Because of 1] and 2] we have CHOICE! Good thing huh!
4] Because of 1], 2] and 3] we also have Consequences which help us learn 1] and 2] and therefor 3]. So Consequences leads to learning which leads to better choices which results in better outcomes! Good thing huh!
5] Clothes...RE: Mans fall caused by Satan required YHVH to make them proper clothes. Hmmm Fashion, protection and privacy all in one garment. Way to go Satan my friend
...Clothes? Good thing huh!

Personal Disclosure: I would encourage you to check out the book of Enoch as it goes into details on demons educating man in many wonderful things.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 08:04 AM
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reply to post by sir_chancealot
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: You state and I quote "You have made a mistake in logic. If he were JUST "jealous and vengeful", then that would be true. 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ""....and wouldn't Peter, with his use of the word "all", by definition of that word being used by him as an Apostle of YHVH and Jesus [i.e. they're spokesperson or author], mean to include "Satan"?

Personal Disclosure: I'm
as doesn't Satan get turfed into the lake of fire?, and I quote the bible [KJV] Rev 20:10 An the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of eternal fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever.
So who is correct? Peter [Satan gets saved] or John [Satan gets BURNED!]?



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by spacebot
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: You state and I quote "Men are not that forgiving." and I would like to direct your attention to this Thread where I was JUST FORGIVEN! I went off pretty hardcore and yet this ATS/BTS poster was more than just FORGIVING...They ASKED ME FOR FORGIVENESS AS WELL [which I will gladly and unreservedly give and post there ASAP] which I respect greatly but personally feel was not required of them at all as I WAS THE ONE IN THE WRONG! So Men are not that forgiving huh? O'RLY


Personal Disclosure: I also direct your attention to this post of mine in another thread.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 08:39 AM
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reply to post by Simplynoone
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: You state and I quote "The bible also says that in the end satan will bow down and worship the Lord God .So I dont think we need to worry about the devils salvation."...and I couldn't find any scripture in the basic KJV Canon to back this position up. Could you please provide a scripture as proof of your statement?

Personal Disclosure: Looking forward to you denying my ignorance.



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by spacebot
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Sorry I missed something in your post that also needs some scriptural light thrown on it...RE:"Do you think that his army is united? Nope, they fight among themselves too. What did you expect? Hell many of them do not even recognize him as leader and so they have their own plans. They fight each other like two different parties have to fight each other."...

Note all scriptures are from the KJV and can be found on the blueletterbible website.

Matt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Mark 3:23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

Luke 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Personal Disclosure: I hope this helps.







 
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