Is the Devil really that bad? This could change the way you think of Christianity

Originally posted by scientist
That's a bit of a misunderstanding. Sophia is not exactly "the one God." She is a feminine quality of "God," but also the lowest emanation. The other main tenant of Gnosticism, is that people aren't flawed, trying to become perfect like God - but rather that people are inherently flawed, as God (or rather the demiurge)...

Its been awhile since i read anything on it even though i like the idea. i thought Sophia is greek for wisdom and is the like the highest form or the highest conciseness of god? i dont know i'm probably wrong : ) \


Peace

Justice

hers some good info taken form the encyclopedia of Judaism.....

Originally the Hebrew noun satan in the Bible meant simply an adversary, someone hostile. Thus, for example, in I Kings 11:14, "The Lord raised up an adversary (Satan) for Solomon in Hadad the Edomite". In later books of the Bible, the noun came to mean a supernatural being in the heavenly entourage who accuses man before God. This role of Satan is made explicit in the prologue to Job (1-2), where Satan challenges the sincerity of Job's piety. Both here and in Zechariah (3:1, 2) Satan can act only within the limits set by God and is totally subordinate to Him. It has been suggested that the concept of a heavenly accuser of man grew out of the desire not to ascribe evil to God (compare II Sam. 24:1, where God makes David take a census of the people, with the later I Chr. 21:1, where David is provoked by Satan). In the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, the role of Satan is greatly enlarged, as it is in the Talmud and Midrash. Whereas previously he was subservient to God, he now incites man to disobey the will of God. Accordingly, he acquires the name Mastemah (Enmity) in the Book of Jubilees. In the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs he is called Belial; in. the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Angel of Darkness. This development in the concept of Satan may have been due to Persian dualism. He is the subject of many folk beliefs and is also referred to in the liturgy. However, in Kabbalah he is often replaced by other names for the prince of evil.

Peace

Justice

I think Scientist had a valid point in charity being an unfair test of a Satanists goodness/badness. But I think it could have been pushed another way. Besides the fact that they don't like charity for charity's sake, satanists also don't like recognition as such. If I came to your house to date your daughter/sister/aunt what have you, and you found out I was a satanist and you and your family aren't, how would you feel about me. Unless you are a satanist too you probably wouldn't understand where I'm coming from at best and outright hate, loathe, abhor, (insert other vitriol here) me so that being said, if I WERE a satanist and I had a billion dollars and erected a new hospital wing or started funding an orphanage or bought new equipment for the local high school football/band/baseball/ROTC team I would say this is a gift from (insert name here) not this is a gift from your friendly neighborhood devil worshiper.

Also, Laveyan Satanism, which is what Scientist was referring to, is all about the self, not the church, YOU are a satanist, not a member of a CHURCH of satan (though technically I guess you are but it's not what defines you.)

Anyway, what was the topic again?...lol


--Apex

Yeah we've kinda drifted away way form the OP havent we? : )
No worries for the most parts it some good info..

Peace

Justice

talking about satan and apex has 666 points.... nice lol

[edit on 22-9-2008 by ...and justice for some]

Originally posted by ...and justice for some

talking about satan and apex has 666 points.... nice lol

[edit on 22-9-2008 by ...and justice for some]

Wow, I just noticed that!!! Well, I guess I just messed that up by replying huh...lol

--Apex

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
You will know them by their fruits.

Who are the great Satanists that have started hospitals, orphanages, helped the poor, the sick, the widows, etc.? Anyone have a list?

If not, think about why not.

probably the same ones that created injury and illness, murdered parents and stole money.

satan isn't Gods prosecuting attorney, but instead is a rouge priest who, while impressed with his own intelligence, led a rebellion against the long established order, turned a daughter against her father, murdered a king, dispossessed a queen and her son of their home and wealth and then tried to cover the whole thing up and pretend it never happened.

And now in the present the time has come to stand face to face with his own actions. ultimately, is not satan's greatest crime refusing to acknowledge the work of his own hands? how can a coward be allowed to rule the world?

At the judgement didn't Adam and Eve admit to their transgression and surrender to the punishment? Not the serpent, God knowing that the serpent will never admit her crime and come clean, just skipped that part and read her sentence.

If any of you think that I don't know what I am speaking about, send Satan to me and I'll clear this up for all of you.

So its obvious Satan is a coward who will not admit his/her own actions, will sacrifice the lives of the stupid to prolong his/her own life and wants to rule where it does not belong. Yes satan is a real ass.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by bruxfain]

The devil is a

Liar

reply to post by ...and justice for some


Justice,

I found a 113 page review of the book you were looking for.

Satan: A Biography

There are a host of other books on Satan in this google books search.

reply to post by v01i0


Just to set things strait, because I think your post could lead some to confusion:

- Lucifer - An ancient god, hijacked by christianaty. He is the bearer of light, be it in it's physical form, fire and illumination, be it, specially, in it's metaphorical form, the enlightenment of the human spirit, or mind.

Like the plagiary religion that it was, and still is, without one single original idea, christianity, being establish by a Pagan that was desperate to hold on to the unity of his empire, stoled all gods it could not destroy, turning them into evil entities...

Or, could it be human ungratefulness in what regards entities that supposedly help us? Or the reaction, by the gods, to any of their kind that challenge their power over humanity, like in the case of Prometheus?

As an Atheist I neither believe in good nor bad entities, or events. If, however, I had to choose, I would say: Hebrew god: Evil; Hebrew devil: Good...
To put in another contest: Hebrew god = human slavery; Hebrew devil = freedom...

Good and evil does not exist as such.
People have motives.
Sometimes those motives don't aline with ours, and people are willing to do whatever to accomplish those motives.
For Satan to have a motive, however, he would have to exist.
He doesn't exist therefor he isn't good or evil.
However, his character portrayed in the Bible is what most humans would consider evil.
Then again, I would consider God to be 'evil', as he creates humans as flawed and then sends a majority to Hell for being flawed.

A cpl of people have already said something similar to what i believe;Satan works for God.

This is clearly shown in the book of Job and,as God wants to test our faith and devotion,he has to have someone to do that.That one is the Devil.

Its understandable that mere mortals would perceive Satan as being wicked.
We think that about tax collectors and bailiffs! lol.

Just my 7 sense.
There is no satan(there is a shaytan-adversary), devil, or evil horned being. (The horned beings come form world wide myths of figures landing and praying on human weaknesses, The Devil is a projection and manifestation of all negative traits reflected from within the human race into being.
Biblically the figure refered to as "Lucifer" was a noble angel/figure. He was commander of the only angels that were able to go to and fro the heavens. He was able to witness all of the deeds of humans and may have been like the person who submits all the facts to the judge( plantiff and/or defendant) or as justice puts it The snitch. He was trying to convince the creator of there wrong doings. And in his course he literally "fell from grace".

I wouldnt doubt it that he even bet that they(we) would intake knowledge(food) (after being altered with their genes, enhanced to the state of perfection) after being told not to do so. All satan did was offer the latest creation, consciousness . He was cursed and if you read the laws of the curse carefully, one will understand how the "devil" came to be.
Everything is going according to plan in Gods eyes....We wont understand yet...

He is ruler of all who become tempted and do not seek to repair their self inflicted wounds of the spirit. In my opinion this is ALL apart of the big plan. You inject flaws into perfectly made beings and allow 1 to multiply infinititely. Over the long course of physical existence, some humans will wish to evolve into GOD beings(terraforming planets, creating crystals, soaring the skys in flying chariots, creating beings for purposes) and in essence they will be by value something totally different than humans. Like the God said"he has become like us". We call them "angels"and this is where it gets trippy. Because this is where the loop has been closed to a circle. If humans cant evolve in a human way(not eating foods that discredit our evolution and needs and other selfish actions), All will perish and/or evolve into the light of the universe. The balance is then disturbed, which will cancel-out this realm.

With ultra technology, we establish our own realm, lets call it heaven for now.
.....Now we are sitting back trying to create the perfect beings to establish the balance the Multi-verse requires. "The world was of no form and void" and We/they/God will command light into the world.
......In order to 'free' ourselves we must free our relationships with finite. And take responsibility not for our destinys but The Great Destiny of Humankind. The Adversary within must be defeated.
sorry for typos.

Well when you think in terms of opposites, good and evil would not exist unless we had something to base one off of. I mean if everything just started tomorrow and there was no knowledge of this or that, no clear defined rules would we find out the same path. Yes I think we would. Knowing that hurting someone doesn't produce a benefit to us and carries a general negative effect within the people present or had some sort of relationship with the affected. But like I said how can you determine whats wrong until its been done. How this battle between good and evil will end logically seems to be stalemated forever. How else could you base one if the other doesn't exist anymore? So what happens if some other life in the universe finds us and the church comes out with their big plan that we all worship the same one. Only their God demands sacrifice, the killing of the enemy is tribute to God,Take what you will, etc... I think the church is going to have a nasty wake up call. That or they backpedal and say that the race is demons. Organised religion is just too hokey to me. They got some good ideas, but then they throw that collectiong plate in front of you and expect you to pay for something that claims material wealth is bad. I mean I understand they need food and basic needs, but they don't need a lexus or a gold watch.

-Aza

Some of you guys think way too hard ..your overthinking the whole situation. lol ..hey I know your smart ...but hey come on sometimes it is really very simple .....

The devil was created by God ..he also had a choice ...he chose the way against God ..God turned him loose (set him free from from his duties in heaven) the devil quit and God said ok then bye ...now the devil COULD have decided after his fall that he didnt much like being on the opposite end of where he was before (as in he is now demoted and more than likely lost alot of his powers ) he only has magic tricks and whispers in mankinds ears and manipulating mankind as his only weapons.... .....But he chooses to do his own thing ..and his own thing is to be as GOD not only that but to kill and maim and destroy all that is dear to God (Us and the Earth itself) .......
(Sounds alot like what man wants to doesnt it ?Thats why is so easy for satan to convince man to help him do all those things)
So God decides I cant just let the little bugger run amuck down there or he will surely be able to reek plenty if havoc ...so he limits him ..he also takes all the things the devil succeeds in convincing men to do ..and causes them to work towards the good of man ...as in we learn something every single event that takes place in our lives (good and bad) ....we grow up and we learn to forgive,love,be patient,we learn self discipline(Which is the main thing we need to learn the most .. by living through lifes hard lessons thats what makes us who we are ...strong individuals who can tackle anything that comes our way (Both physically and spiritually).......(especially that ole satan who thinks he has us as his servants )well he thought wrong didnt he lol

Of course this is just my 2 cents worth ...



[edit on 22-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

Ok... well If you died and saw the light? Would you go towards the light or away from the light? God perhaps has a simple way of communication. I think ultimately each must make his/her own choice.


[edit on 22-9-2008 by mapsurfer_]

Satan can SUCK IT! Good or not!

This is actually a two line post.

I think this article is an example of spiritual political correctness.

It's pretty bad when the good gets smeared and the evil revered.

The ultimate deception is to allow these two polar opposites to converge into some form of idiotic equality. I guess its a great way to expose the agnostics, which are still non believers.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by Atlantican]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
The devil as a concept makes no sense.

How can there be an omnipotent god who allows a devil to exist?

And more importantly, who is the devil? Is he also omnipotent? Can the devil be saved by god, or converted to good? If not, doesnt that mean that he is incapable of good and should therefore not be maligned since he doesnt have a choice.

You see... it just makes no bloody sense.

Good questions. I am quoting this for making a general answer to this thread. God had His own thread yesterday, so I guess its OK for the devil to has his own too. After all we live in a democracy.

As a concept he makes no sense?
Why not?
What do you people think? Did ever the devil proclaimed that he was a god?
Nope. Man did this. He neither ever proclaimed he was the opposite of God. God has no opposites. God is the Whole.
One thing satan is not, is being ignorant, like many of us.
Satan only proclaimed he is the way instead of Jesus and that he is the light instead of God.

What was satan initially? The master architect for our reality anointed from God. Yes God anoints others to do a task, its not a big deal. By the way satan was an angel back then and he had quite a career in front of him until he screwed up. It only takes one small mistake. And he did it. He took things for granted, he thought that God would give him more priviledges than what God believed that he really deserved, after all he was doing a fine job only second to Gods own work. Though God had other thoughts, then satan disagreed and parted his way along with his army of followers which were to be angels too. Do you think that his army is united? Nope, they fight among themselves too. What did you expect? Hell many of them do not even recognize him as leader and so they have their own plans. They fight each other like two different parties have to fight each other. Do you get it now?

God cannot save satan. Although satan can save himself if he accepts God once again. God loves satan like all his children, but men are a different story, we have never been taught to have a sympathy for satan, God has never instructed us anything specific regarding satan except to take heed and that we do not believe his works. This can mean we can do whatever we want regarding satans judgement, we are not in an obligation to feel anything for him and this wouldn't be considered a sin either. If it was in our judgement what to become of the devil, we would easily chose without mercy to let him burn forever. Thus it is better for satan himself to be judged by God than by men. Men are not that forgiving. For some reason God, is the only hope for the devil. Some things you can't escape.

To conclude, it makes very much sense, that not all of your kids will turn out to be ok. Sometimes things simply go wrong. You cannot blame the father. At least he made a good work if 9 out of his 10 kids turned out ok for example.

This is from what I have understood so far. Please correct me if I am mistaken anywhere. I could be.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by spacebot]

reply to post by spacebot


I really liked your post .
It was well thought out and made alot of sense and is pretty close to what I believe .(There was some things I disagree with)
I also thought it was funny ..the democracy part lol ..oh and the fallen angels all fighting amongst themselves ..I can see that too ..
In fact now that you mention democracy ...the bible does say that this earth and all that is therein is in the image of the heavens ..so whats happening here is happening there too ....(Good verses Evil) which is why the Lord says he will create a new heaven and a new earth ..and that the old ones will pass away ......so soon the whole ordeal will be over with ..YEAHHH >>>

The bible also says that in the end satan will bow down and worship the Lord God .So I dont think we need to worry about the devils salvation .

reply to post by ...and justice for some


As I understand, upon the creation of Heaven, the Earth and the Underworld, there needed to be ways for beings to reincarnate, there needed to be ways for beings to suffer and repay their sins, and there needed to be some negative beings to create balance in the universe. It's similar to the principle of human beings experiencing birth, old age, illness and death, as well as tribulations in their daily lives. Positive and negative beings have always existed.

At any rate, the discussion about whether Satan has been functional or dysfunctional is essentially moot. The Demon Satan has all but been removed from the equation at this point, and most of the evil factors beyond the human world have already been destroyed.