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How We Became the the United States of France

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posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by wytworm
 


Yes, I see that as one of the integral ideas to the "system". I can say with certainty for myself that the poor are too often poor not because they don't try, but because they do try. They have us all reaching for the same carrot. But how far the carrot is from us is determined for at least some, if not all, by where we start this race in the first place.



[edit on 22-9-2008 by TravelerintheDark]




posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
To the OP:

Hysteria aside, I do not see how you can be a such a huge fan of the system that is apparently failing now. All that excess and all that irresponsibility happened precisely beause of uber-capitalistic free for all. As usual, the ordinary folks stand to suffer.



I disagree. In a true free market society everyone makes out fine as long as you work hard and dont expect handouts. But the problem is you have the banking system aka the FED who robs people of their wealth using inflation and deflation (No Free Market There) and you have big corporate America who have hijacked the government to pass laws to further their agenda (Once again No Free Market There) Listen dont let the government play dumb on this budda. The government knew EXACTLY what was going on and they let it slide because their boys were getting rich as hell. For them to act like "Oh there wasnt enough regulation we had no clue what was going on" they are full of ship. They knew. These banks should be allowed to fail in a true free market (As you see they are not how free is that?)

I can point out many ways this free market isnt free and the government along with the FED try to control it but the free market will always win. This is why you see such huge losses. We need the system to crash and get rid of the FED plain and simple as that.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by mybigunit
In a true free market society everyone makes out fine as long as you work hard and dont expect handouts. But the problem is you have the banking system aka the FED who robs people of their wealth using inflation and deflation (No Free Market There) and you have big corporate America who have hijacked the government to pass laws to further their agenda (Once again No Free Market There)


Your notion of what free market is seems fictitious. Investment banks IMHO were paragons of the free market, guiding huge investment streams, mergers and all that, in a most free and profitable manner.

I don't see how the FED, which simply regulates money supply to keep inflation in check, defeats the notion of the free market -- you need central bank anyway.

Look, it it entirely a product of free market that a lot of executives made untold gazillions of money while perpetrating the pyramid scheme in mortgage-backed securities -- which now costs us, the taxpayers, an arm and leg.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by mybigunit
In a true free market society everyone makes out fine as long as you work hard and dont expect handouts. But the problem is you have the banking system aka the FED who robs people of their wealth using inflation and deflation (No Free Market There) and you have big corporate America who have hijacked the government to pass laws to further their agenda (Once again No Free Market There)


Your notion of what free market is seems fictitious. Investment banks IMHO were paragons of the free market, guiding huge investment streams, mergers and all that, in a most free and profitable manner.

I don't see how the FED, which simply regulates money supply to keep inflation in check, defeats the notion of the free market -- you need central bank anyway.

Look, it it entirely a product of free market that a lot of executives made untold gazillions of money while perpetrating the pyramid scheme in mortgage-backed securities -- which now costs us, the taxpayers, an arm and leg.




You dont need a central bank in fact in our constitution is states that the government should control the money. The FED controls the money supply correct. How do you think all of this money that was lent got out there? You dont think the FED knew what they were doing? This has happened several times look at the roaring 20s and then the depression. Same thing a big credit boom and then the called in all the money and quit lending. This is what causes the bankruptcies and recessions because there is never enough money to pay off the money on credit. If you understand how the FED and our system works you will see how they control or attempt to control the market at our expense.

As I pointed out what is free about the taxpayers bailing out the "free market?" The executives make a ton of money not because they are in a free market. In a free market the shareholders would have some real power in what the executives make. They dont. Its set by their cronies in house. Trust me the idea that we live in a true free market is laughable we dont and that is why we are having the problems. Our problem is not freedom its greed.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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Aah crap I thought France had bought the USA !! Well I guess I'll have to wait a little longer for that

On topic : I'm French (yeah we suck...surrender and all...I know ) and don't worry a solicialist country is not that bad, we pay a lot of taxes that's true, but I don't have to worry about the bills when one of my kids got sick or breaks one of his / her bones, I got 5 weeks off, work 35h / week and I eat 3 times / day (ok maybe not frogs everyday :/ :p )...



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:04 PM
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Ummmm.....the OP title is unessicarily (EDIT...please repair my bad speeling...here) provacative, methinks. France churns along quite well, thank you very much. They've embraced nuclear energy for electricity production, with ZERO accidents, for decades now.

See, some old 'stick-in-the-mud' types just cannot seem to grasp the Global nature of our planet, and our current economy. Looking backwards, we see the desire of the 'Colonists' to break away from the shackles of the 'Old Sod'...(England).

Hence, the 'Pride' of the USA was born. AND, this country has done very, very bad things....despite all of the patriotic music and pomp and circumstance. Many tend to wrap up in the 'flag' and deny reality.

England, when an Empire, did very very bad things too. Humans, as a rule, do very bad things to each other.

I see this as a cultural devide...it is a hold-over from our tribal beginnings. Our early evolutionary territorial instincts are barely submerged....under the veneer of 'civilization'.

It is primeval primate behavior. And, there is always an aspect of cunning, as in....what can I get for my 'tribe' at the expense of the other 'tribe'.



[edit on 9/22/0808 by weedwhacker]



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by Marmelade
 


Marmelade....can you imagine what would have happened to all of the cherished treasures of France, if the leaders of that day had opposed Hitler with everything they had?

Nothing would likely be left, to enjoy today.

Shame, it is, that most Americans have no knowledge of the incredible French underground resistance, in WWII.


EDIT because my typing skills are poor...


[edit on 9/22/0808 by weedwhacker]



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


And I still feel that way. Please don't take my anger here as an indication of a political ideological shift by me. My issue is that we're now not taking from a foreign "tribe," we're cannibalising our own tribe to feed the excesses of the few... in fact, with the revelation that even foreign banks can potentially tap into this bailout at our expense, we're cutting up our own to feed not just us, but the whole world.

I still believe fully in capitalism and in the American dream. Which is why I'm pissed off. Both of them aren't just under attack, they're laying face down in a trench with jack boots trampling across the backs of their heads... and it was the very people who swore to protect & uphold those ideals that delivered the forcefull shove in the back that landed them there.

If Barry Goldwater was still alive the man would either weep at what has become or take up arms to return it to what it once was.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:20 PM
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funny isn't it that USA is becoming communist for corporates and fascist for the people

sickening



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:23 PM
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To all of those claiming we will be better off because capitalism has failed:

The current system we are in is no longer capitalism, it is corporate capitalism. This means that the market is no longer free, and is purposefully skewed towards the corporate elites. I have some reference material I will post on this in a day or two (I need to dig it up) but the gist of what the scholars I will post say is that true capitalism with limits on monopolies and corporations is a great thing, but once we get to where we are now, it needs to be stopped at all costs.

Now the alternative that people seem to be praising here, this so called "socialism", is infinitely worse. Why? Well, because in order for these government programs to work for the benefit of all of the people, we would need a government that was pure and uncorrupt. I think that our current economic situation should be enough to prove that they aren't looking out for anyone but corporate interests.

What they are doing is socializing losses obtained by these companies (ie the people get to pay when these companies fail) and they are privatizing gains (when the companies gain money, the people don't see a penny). How can you all be excited over that? It was already said earlier on this board, but that is not socialism, it is fascism.

We all need to remember just how corrupt all of the members of our government (both parties) were in allowing the current situation to unfold while they and their friends got ridiculous rich. Only by doing this and demanding that these people be held accountable will meaningful change ever occur. If we start to blindly assume that giving them more power and more control over taxpayer money is the answer, then we are doomed.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by burdman30ott6
 


Wow! burdman, I had completely misunderstood your original point, but that last point is very clear!

Chewing on it, but so far I tend to agree.......



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Marmelade
 


Marmelade....can you imagine what would have happened to all of the cherished treasures of France, if the leaders of that day had opposed Hitler with everything they had?

Nothing would likely be left, to enjoy today.

Shame, it is, that most Americans have no knowledge of the incredible French underground resistance, in WWII.




To be honest I don't know and neither do you , some national pride maybe ? Not really nice to be considered as Cheese-eating surrender monkeys by the whole world.



Originally posted by weedwhacker

Shame, it is, that most Americans have no knowledge of the incredible French underground resistance, in WWII.

[edit on 9/22/0808 by weedwhacker]



The winners write history



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 01:05 PM
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Burdman;

I usually agree with you on many concepts and I am not quite sure where I stand on this as a whole. I do believe that our system of independance (for lack of a better word) in our daily lives is what America is about. I do not agree so much that having socialized health care is a bad thing.

As someone who has had to undergo numerous operations I cannot even think of getting any kind of health insurance. The last time i tried was about 4 years ago and it would have cost me $220 a month for me alone. Since then I have had 3 more operations so who knows what it would be now.

As for the poster who pretty much said he was better than everyone else I will definately disagree with you on that. You may be somewhat intelligent but are extremely short sided. Take my word for it. One accident that doesn't kill you and you will still be worse off than me. I do not quit anything. If I was a quitter I would have put a bullet in my head years ago. You cannot compare to what millions of Americans like me have to endure and I doubt you have the strength to even imagine it.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by capgrup
 


capgrup, thanks for sharing your story, sorry about your medical issues, but I am puzzled:

On the one hand you say you have to shell out $220 a month, for health insurance. That's $2640 a year. Now, imagine if your taxes went up, per year, by $220....and you had (free) Universal Health Care. Which option would you choose?

Do you not want to have, at the very least, the same benefits that members of Congress enjoy?



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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weed;

That 220 was 4 years and 3 operations ago. I would love to have the same benefits Congress has, and I want everyone else in the country to have the same or better. As it stands now I have to travel 200 miles to see a doctor when I have Ft. Campbell 10 miles away.

I guess is what I am trying to say is health care is the most important aspect of our lives these days. The expense can destroy a family just for a small medical problem and it should not be this way.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 02:07 PM
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The "System" as everyone puts it was tossed aside long before the bailout. That is why so many risky loans were made. It is sickening. There was an interview with Forbes this morning and he revealed that in this bailout there is 2.5 Billion dollars set aside for CEO bonuses at Lehmans. That's freakin money above and beyond salaries given for being absolute failures. They should be sitting in prison not getting rewarded for the biggest financial screwup of any living generation. He also ranted about how the regulators were replaced with the speculators and the upside shortselling roadbump having been taken away to effectively help grow the bubble. Oh he also piled on the tampering with deflating the dollar artificially.

This all resembles a B grade movie plotline. Here come the Dems to hand out govt cheese on cue and everyone will be feeling better.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by capgrup
 


Wait!!! cap, you're a Vet?!? AND, Ft. Campbell won't help you??

Did I miss something?

Not to pry, of course...but I hope you're OK.

I'd like to say....based on whoever comes along to read here....I'm lucky....worst thing I have right now is a bunion. But, I am hyper-tensive, and could drop dead of an aneuryism at any moment.

BUT....there are far, far more deserving people of good, cheap (by cheap, I mean very inexpensive) quality medical care, and we should all support one another in this endeavor.

I just recently visitied some Scandanavian countries, and it is amazing that we, here in the US, can't mirror those policies, at least in the realm of Health Care!!!



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by weedwhacker
 




If Barry Goldwater was still alive the man would either weep at what has become or take up arms to return it to what it once was.



FUNNY you said that... I just found out I am a second cousin to Barry.

On the topic at hand I think WE THE PEOPLE need to restore the balance. The USA is our entity and we need to shift the pendulum back towards the common man. The key is to shift while maintaining the balance of a free market and breathing humans FIRST.

FOR so long it has been drummed into our heads that we HAVE to defend the TOP or else the bottom will suffer. We have been doing it and doing it... As far as I can tell we have left the TOP do WHATEVER WHENEVER HOWEVER... I work in the mortgage industry in a depo that dealt out SUB-PRIMES like bloody cards. WE were encouraged by WAMU GS and the rest to fund no matter the INCOME realities of the applicant. AT one point my friend calculated his pipeline as being 70% underfunded per actual applicant funds. A few of us tried to call attention to this but we were all threatened with termination...

IN WASHINGTON as it is the bailout PER BUSH would be another FREE MARKET situation. THE $700,000,000,000.00 (2,300 PP) per GOP and BUSH would have NO
STRINGS attached. NONE... WE got a very good analysis by the man todays brief.
THE first line of negotiations PER this plan is likely CEO CFO etc.. SALARIES and bonuses first. NEXT would be the CHAIR MEMBERS bailouts.

ON the other token the DEMs are stalling to provide a few provisions-
SALARY caps - CAPITALIZATION MINIMUMS ( regulation ) - FOREIGN INVESTOR CAPS -
Judicial power to negotiation HOMEOWNER debt ( readjust to the new market prices )-
Judicial Jurisdiction ( a leveraging organism for homeowners ) and a 40+ automatic FICO bump to all in debt homeowners ( to help correct the lending side if market stabilizes).

SO Stan the man ( our fanatical master ) is very worried that if the INDUSTRY gets fre reign PER BUSH and GOP - they could legally and quite literally take the money and "run". HE likens it to a "double dipping with no one looking."

IF the bill is unfettered WE ARE GETTING DOUBLE #@$#!$!@ - Trust me I saw this happening years ago, YOU ONLY KNOW ABOUT IT NOW,,, THATS THE DIFFERENCE...

Anyhow...

PS I heard the old CO group at my old job had a party after they heard about the BAILOUT and BUSH's TEXCT -



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by SectionEight
 


Great point. Where is the massive, even dwarfing Enron in it's scale, congressional investigation & calls for criminal trials against these CEO's? They'd have us believe that this was the result of the little guys, both lending agents & borrowers, fudging their numbers resulting in horrible loans. I can buy that, but at the same time, part of being the CEO is taking responsibillity for the actions of your subordinates when conducted under the banner of official company business. Therefore, each and every CEO who's company signed off on fraudulent loans should be brought up on charges as the party ultimately responsible for not having enough oversight in their company to keep this from happening.



posted on Sep, 22 2008 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by burdman30ott6
 


Once again, burdman....I have to applaud you, since I immediately thought about Enron!!

There should be consequences assigned to actions, even by so-called 'executives'....who bring the companies they over-see to to brink of extinction.




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