A problem I have with God No. 1-Omnipotence

Originally posted by favouriteslave
It may be fiction but it really makes you think about why god "needed" to create a man in the first place. Everyone has a motive, what was his?

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. What's God's purpose? Does he really want us all to go to heaven and sit at his feet with Jesus at his right hand and Lucifer at his left. NO! There has to be something to do when we get there.

But that sounds like a book I'd like. I'll have to check it out. Thanks.

DC

man i just typed a big long response that vanished that was unretrievable.




so i am just gonna say dna? has one ever seen dna? is it anything more than a hieroglyph?

but yet i do not need to see dna to know that there is something that perfoms it's function regardless of what it is. there is a programer i am very confident that there is NOT any evolution as in mudpuppies to men. adaptation to the point of mutation yes, but darwin was off point.


the point about omnipotence. i just typed a better corelation but it vanished.


if you know everthing you are bound to forget a few things. and this is the truth. that is why we live and die. willingly

peace out

So what did you think of that Planet of the Apes movie?

DC

Here's what I think and i may be totally off par here but here it goes. I think at one point in time there was an omnipotent being capable of creating the universe and everything we know, however upon doing this it may have "lost" its edge. When people say we are a part of god and it is a part of us i think it could and thats a big could mean that by forming and creating us and everything else it had to sacrifice some of its own power and omnipotence? tell me what you think perhaps im totally wrong but thats why ATS exists correct?

The Bible is allegorical

It has to be for the ignorant , the in betweens and the wise
There is truth in the bible though...albeit hidden in most parts

Certainly the creator ...no matter who you think that is
could not explain star clusters.dna,atomic structures,biology.....hence the allegory

yea darkproject if god is everything and we are part of it or we are god in the degree that which is ourselves. lots of stuff is sacrificed to become you and me and the birds and bees the datura and the weeds.

i would like to say god doesn't want to just sit at his computer bangin' away at the keyboard hammerin' out more progarmss. SO WHAT DOES HE DO? he delves into tha dank like a dope phiend dolphin!!!

sex with a condemn sucks. the reason that we really have sex is to exchange bodily fluids. its good for the female and her womb. and the release is pretty good too. off topic hell no. think about it god wants to get up in it raw. you may not like the way i am seeing this, but what i am saying is real the way a zebra finds a slow death at the teeth of the lioness. get up in it.

god does!!!

I like that theory a lot. It would make sense that to create, one would have to sacrifice. We mortals do it all the time. That just goes along with my theory that Heaven is a similar reflection of Earth.

Nice,
DC

Originally posted by panchovilla
sex with a condemn sucks. the reason that we really have sex is to exchange bodily fluids. its good for the female and her womb. and the release is pretty good too. off topic hell no. think about it god wants to get up in it raw. you may not like the way i am seeing this, but what i am saying is real the way a zebra finds a slow death at the teeth of the lioness. get up in it.

god does!!!

I like this angle, Pancho. Imagine the sex that Gods would have. (I hope there are *Gods*, cause I wouldn't want to imagine the guy with my fate in his hands not getting any)

DC

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I like that theory a lot. It would make sense that to create, one would have to sacrifice. We mortals do it all the time. That just goes along with my theory that Heaven is a similar reflection of Earth.

Thanks, i guess its true that great minds think alike. It seems like the only way to put things into a semi-perspective. Maybe sometime you'll share your complete theory.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I like that theory a lot. It would make sense that to create, one would have to sacrifice. We mortals do it all the time. That just goes along with my theory that Heaven is a similar reflection of Earth.

Nice,
DC

I like his theory as well and I think heaven is literally the universe and we will evolve inot beings that can live in it in peace. Eventually. We were made in his image and we may still be forming into that image.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by AlnilamOmega
Blinking it into existence is about as valid as the Big bang theory (which I am neutral about). Something as complex and intricate as the Universe just cannot pop up out of nowhere.

But why could it not just pop up out of nowhere, when it's Creator, Who is all-powerful, should, by definition be able to do anything in zero time.

Do you believe that God invented the laws which govern the universe (e.g. physics, biology, etc.), only to be bound by them? Or do you believe that those laws existed somehow prior to God's seeming need to create the universe?

DeltaChaos

thank you. though i had to embarrasingly *cry* for a bit (metaphorically speaking), I am still happy you asked me such a difficult question. excuse me for that, however.

I don't know for sure, something I don't admit very often. One could postulate that before the Universe existed a seriously lonely omnipotent force, as such an idea seems relatively familiar. When we were kids and we were alone with nothing to do with a a few sets of lego/tinkertoys/etc, what would we do?

It would make sense for an omnipotent force to exist BEFORE the creation of the laws of physics and the sort, however, because it would be in the perfect position to create such checks and balances. that would also explain how such a force would operate outside of the preset systems of existence.

but I guess the only way to find out for sure is by me dying. see you on the other side! just kidding

PS: Im not surprised that this thread is getting low ratings. I gave it a 7 when there were 0 votes and now the biblethumpers have angrily retorted, apparently. what pisses me off is that they vote negatively and say not a word of their tension on this matter, thus continuing their cycle of undue ignorance.

[Edited on 3/22/2004 by AlnilamOmega]

First think about God. Omnipotence, what does it mean?
All powerful, and from some theological readings he has a free will, a will according to his purpose.

If we are agreed upon that as a discussion, then think about "dominion." It must define itself as consistent with the goodness of God, "wise stewardship." So now I am getting over some inconsistency here. You know factory farming, and other things justified in the name of profit but having no wisdom, no stewardship, and nothing to do with dominion.

Now raw unabashed and unbridled "domination," eg. assuming from a human position, some kind of power, but now really at all akin to anything Godlike. Now you see the difference, what real power is, and what it is not?

Assuming a "dominant," hence in our world "overbearing," position, is actually a grave weakness. On simple common sense remember the phrase "the bigger they are the harder they fall?" Ever confront a bully while you were growing up? Now do you see the difference?

Omnipotence is totally consistent with wisdom, not the totally buffonery of so called "power." Mabe my argument is a total mishmash and our terms for God and so forth are so far removed from the actual divine, we can only hope to come up the next level as to really know these kinds of things. One step at a time.

I am convinced that most people barely have a clue to what power really means, and if they did, they would realize what a stretch terms like "omipotence," really are.

[Edited on 22-3-2004 by SkipShipman]

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
There are just a few things that really lead me to believe that the God to which we most commonly refer is actually a fraud perpetrated by ancient social engineers and mind-manipulators for the purpose of control of the masses through fear, sensationalism, and superstition.

Omnipotence. OK, so God is all-powerful. So why then did it take 6 DAYS to create the Heavens and the Earth? Couldn�t he have just blinked it into existence? It seems to me that there wouldn�t really be any reason to beat around the bush on something like this. I would think that if God wanted something to happen he would just make it happen. Was he pretending NOT to be all-powerful just for 6 days to entertain Himself?

Or could it be that God is not, in fact, all-powerful?

DeltaChaos

I�m commenting on the portion that is in bold. For you to believe this is to say that you believe that the stories written on paper 2000+ years ago are infallible. One should not base their belief in �God� on things in this physical world, but on your knowledge and experiences. It�s like �he� almost talks to you indirectly everyday through different the different people you meet and situations that you encounter. But back to Omnipotence. Our understanding of omnipotence is to know everything. Well the only way to know everything is to be everything. And if you are everything that means you would have to be conscious of the fact that you are everything. But is consciousness a part of existence? Hence the paradox. That�s as far as our human brains can understand this concept. Sorry if I got a little confusing there.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I like that theory a lot. It would make sense that to create, one would have to sacrifice. We mortals do it all the time. That just goes along with my theory that Heaven is a similar reflection of Earth.

Nice,
DC

But when you think about it the Earth is a Part of the Heavens. It is dependent upon the moon and the sun.

[Edited on 22-3-2004 by DaTruth]

Here, I have a different conundrum for you all...

God is omnipotent. Yet, there is evil.

If god is omnipotent, he should destroy all evil, aff?

Therefore, if he does not, he is one of two things:

1. Not omnipotent

or

2. Not benevolent.

DE

Originally posted by DaTruth
But back to Omnipotence. Our understanding of omnipotence is to know everything.

Omniscience=All-knowing
Omnipotence=All-Powerful
Omnipresence=All-being/seeing (being everywhere)

Those are the other two things I will address soon.

DC

Originally posted by favouriteslave
Did anyone read
"The Apocrypha" by John A. De Vito's ??

I thought apocrypha was the set of old testiment books left out of the bible due to not being "inspired" by God

To the original question i say, Good question, ill do my research, but i dont doubt his omnipotence at all.

And too the post who says God is cruel, God is just just, not cruel

Originally posted by DaTruth
But back to Omnipotence. Our understanding of omnipotence is to know everything.

I thought omnipotent was to be able to do anything
Omniscience is to be able to know everything

what gets me is that god created the earth first - then the next day made the sun and stars.

since a day is an earth measurment of the rotation of the planet from day to night and back again using the light of the sun - how did god know what a day was if he hadnt created the sun to bring the light to the earth ?

another is - if god can see all space and all time at the same time (ie 4th dimentional or more) then why did he not notice we where all gonna end up bonkers and make some adjustments?

Originally posted by DeusEx
Here, I have a different conundrum for you all...

God is omnipotent. Yet, there is evil.

If god is omnipotent, he should destroy all evil, aff?

Therefore, if he does not, he is one of two things:

1. Not omnipotent

or

2. Not benevolent.

DE

or 3. Since God is infinite, God is everything. Therefore, evil and good are both derived from within God. To destroy evil, or what we perceive to be evil, would mean God would have to destroy a part of It's infinite self.

Omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence are all just defining characteristics of an infinite consciousness.

For Christians, the Bible is all about Christ. Even the Book of Genesis is about Jesus. There is so much symbolism here that it could fill a book - Impossible to write everything in a tiny thread.

Let me point out some things before I try to tackle this topic. Even the people in the Bible that God was talking to questioned God. Moses himself questioned God and each time God basically slapped them on the face and said, �Are you God? Don�t question me.�

Numbers are very important in the Bible. Could God have made the world in the blink of an eye instead of 7 days. Yes, but for God�s own reason he chose 7 days. Man was created on the 6th day giving mankind the number 6. God rested on the 7th day making God�s number 7.

Everything is symbolism pointing to the coming of Jesus and his sacrifice.

Adam and Eve ate the apple and got kicked out of the Garden. They put fig leaves over their privates and when God saw this he told them to remove the plants and kill the first animals to use the skins � symbolism: blood atonement for sin.

God now makes a law that any sacrifice must come from a �clean and pure lamb�. The lamb could not have spots or defects. Symbolism: The clean, spotless and pure lamb represents Jesus. Each time a pure lamb is sacrificed sin is forgiven.

Abel comes to God and scarifies his best lamb and god is pleased. Cain gives God some harvest from the Earth and God is not happy. Cain did not follow God's law. Old saying �can�t get blood from a turnip.� Symbolism: God is showing that nothing but the blood of the clean lamb will be accepted.

Later God tells Abraham to take his first born son to the top of the hill (where Jesus would be crucified 2000 years later) and sacrifice him. This is a big moment of foreshadowing. Abraham struggles with this order but does what God says and takes his first born son to the altar. The son says, father I see the altar and the wood for the fire but where is the sacrifice? Abraham says what God has been waiting for�Abraham says, �God will give us a sacrifice.� An angel of the lord suddenly appears and with a pure lamb for them to sacrifice. Symbolism: God will give the world a pure sacrifice to clean away all sin. Also see how difficult it was for Abraham and how hard it will be for God to watch Jesus on the Cross. It will be a sacrific and not a murder.

Moving on to Moses�The pharaoh makes the final curse �The curse of the first born son.� All first-born sons will die when the Angel of Death flies into the city. However, God tells Moses that the Angel will pass over the families that put �Lambs Blood� on their door. Symbolism: The first-born sons will die, but those who use the blood will be saved. There is no death with the blood of the Lamb (Christ). Those who die and believe that the Lamb�s Blood was spilled for their sins will live again.

The Bible goes on and on in this matter of symbolism. But it is all about Christ and how his blood sacrifice saves the sins of all humanity for those who believe.

But God has given us all free will. We create the good or the bad.






[Edited on 28-3-2004 by zerotime]