Is Religion Simply A Security Blanket? INTELLIGENT Discussion With NO FLAMING

If God exists in reality then all religion is a lie, except for any religion you may personally have between you and God.

If God exists in reality then believing in God should be in no way religious to you.

It is only religion to those who label it as such.

If aliens exist in reality then believing in their existence is in no way a religious exercise, it is a personal acknowledging of what is true.

One of the posters a few pages back made the statement that explains it all for those who truly want to understand.

Only you can prove for yourself the truth of God, and when I say prove I mean in real physical terms not intellectually or emotionally.

God either exists or He does not, it is that simple, it is either the truth or it is a lie.

I know God is real because I have proven it for myself, by receiving into evidence those things that should be expected to result from a full belief in something that is valid.

You cannot learn your way to the truth of God; you can only believe or not believe.

We all at a certain level “KNOW OF GOD,” it is only a question of belief or disbelief.

Belief and disbelief are both belief; one is belief in a single direction the other is belief in the opposite direction if you consider thought in terms of dimension.

Belief is made up of several pats for example the first part of believing something is acceptance.

You can believe something without knowledge or experience, but you can’t have faith until your belief is fulfilled.

Faith is belief in full, and what you must experience to prove God is the receiving of faith, not just a belief.

Until you experience the presence of God in your life in real physical terms, no matter what you tell yourself, the truth is you have not fully believed yet, at best you have only partly believed, but you do not have any faith in the sense of the faith by which a man walks with God.

Only by manifesting spiritual power from God personally in your physical reality can you say in truth that you have proven God and have His faith.

You prove God by believing in full that is to the point of receiving experientially the results of your belief, which becomes your faith

reply to post by rightwingnut


Right then is where the questions should start. See this is exactly what I was referring to in my first post. Too many use religion for hate.

No one wants your pity. I know we are not supposed to argue with each other on this thread, but that was a hateful comment, and I call it like I see it.

Greetings Dave!
Thank you for making such an open an honest OP. That takes alot from a man who has been threw so much in his life. I feel that this has helped you in many ways. Ive found personally that sometimes when I post something private it helps me over come an issue that I deal with.
Thus onto the questions at hand.

1. Are people religious because they really believe?
All the people that I know, and have spoke to threw out my life honestly belive deeply in what they where taught to belive. And each person has their very own type of faith and believe what they want to belive.
Something this broad can not be answered in any brush stroke type of answer. I would honestly say this is as deep as the oceans within the universe. Each person has their own way they promote and deal with Faith. So one single answer would never cover the depths of this issue.

2. Do they simply go through the motions because they are too afraid of the consequences .... just in case there is a Heaven or Hell?
There is nothing simple about this. Each person has their own reasons and methods for what they belive. While I can speak for myself. I do what I do not out of fear. But becasue its the right thing to do.
IM a good person because its how I live my life. Not because of fear of going to hell for a bad move. I live my life as an extension of how I wish to be treated by others. I wish I could give you a simple answer. But this is the best shot I can give you without going into a debate. This is in no way a debate.. Only my honest thought.

3. Is it simply a security blanket because they want to believe that there is something better after they die and would be miserable if they didn’t believe there was something at the end of the religious rainbow?

Yet again I dont think their is a simple reason they want to belive. Some people want to feel secure in knowing there may be something great beyond this life we know. Some people dont want to feel like everything we do in this life will just be "gone". People want to feel secure in knowing that everything they did here, will go on their record in the next life.
If there is such a thing. None of us have those kind of answers.
I belive that all we can do is be good people, and do right by others.
But not for the reason that we get brownie points with God, or get to go to some good place afterwards.
I happen to feel this world we live can be heaven, or it can be hell.
If you treat yourself bad, and others bad, you create a hell for yourself.
If you treat yourself good, and others good you will create a heaven for yourself here on earth.
Yet some people have been so deeply programed by this that they couldnt live a happy life without faith, nor could they be "good" people without this. I happen to feel without religion, the world would lack much order.
However I feel a world without religion would be a better place. Its a catch 22. And theres just to many people, and to many problems here on this earth. I sense that nothing will change, and faith will keep on rolling until we are all dead. And then, and only then shall we find out.
And even prehaps at that point we wont know anything because our minds have died. its a perplexing and deep topic you have brought up.
While I type all this out, I deeply know I dont have the answers.
And I sertinly know I have no desire to prove or disprove any point.
Other than I say yes, its a security blanket to some, while others have their own reasons, and even others dont know themselfs.
Its a topic that has as many answers as we have people.
No one person is right, yet no one person is totally wrong.
I think as a collective hive mind we are what we create. We have created all this out of our minds. And that has made it very real to some, and fantasy to others. Thus in ending everyone is right, and everyone is wrong. The human mind is caught up in a repeating loop which we can not escape.

First, I'd like to be one of those who apologises to anyone I've annoyed, but at the same time, in a thread with this many responses, I think we're doing quite well considering the subject matter.

but sorry if I offended anyone. I smack my own knees 'cos you can't reach.

(even if Dave did start it!)

I will sometimes say things that someone doesn't like till the day I die!

At least I'm human (probably).

So..."is religion simply a security blanket?"

"Yes", so is a big flashy car, a good job, savings, real friends, a family, your jewellery, my cats, Dave's moustache & beard, bottle of wine, your wisdom, etc, etc....

Ask a silly question...

.... And only because I don't have the time to back over all of your posts.... there are no Silly Questions... only Silly Answers. You could have put all of your feelings and thoughts into One Post as opposed to debating or trying to sidetrack what another person may have said they believed.

The purpose of this thread was to let people show their vulnerabilities about the subject matter, post their own stories of faith or lack of, have it be part of the continuous education process that we all go through on daily basis, and that's it. You have made several "Come Backs" to folks, but I didn't see one where you put time and thought about why you believe what you do and the path that led you to it.

Last Warning - I only want NEW STORIES. If YOU or Anyone else still doesn't get the picture of what we have tried to do here and insist on pushing the established rules of posting for it, they will get an automatic warning, then a ban.

Dave

Everyone ... this was never intended to be an ALL SIDES on what a person poured their heart and soul out about. That is DEBATING. The ability to read what someone says and believes and take it for just that, what THEY BELIEVE... that is what the intention was and wanted. Although I did allow folks to ask a question about a post, it was not meant to be an open field for criticism about what the poster believed themselves. Something like this is very hard to control when people have passion and the opinion that the OTHER GUY is DEAD WRONG..... but that is why I wanted this to be about the JOURNEY and the STORY.

It's like picking up a book.... you read it...... you either LIKE or DISLIKE what it says..... but you...

Experienced The Journey.

Thanks to the majority of you who have made this a meaningful one for me.

Dave

Hello.

Before I give you my reply let me give you some of my background. I am a dentist, but i have a graduate degree in marine biology and a background in evolutionary biology.

I do not follow any organized religion, although I dont consider myself an athiest or anti-god. I consider myself "spiritual" although I dont ascribe to belief of any anthropomorphic god or a god that would intervene in our daily crises. Nor do I believe that we can truely understand the nature of the universe or the divine using our five earthly senses.

I study biology, and I view human behavior through an evolutionary bent. One thing that has always struck me is how physically incapable human beings are to survive, we would truly be nothing without our minds. My observations have led me to believe that a belief in a "god" or a "better place" is an evolutionary adpation to get by when times are hard. Life, daily life, had to be an incredible struggle for early man.

What do you think?

Retzius

The old religions of the past are social religions that are/where, in my opinion, created by the Devil to help maintain social order and prevent the extreme degradation of souls into a state from which they could no longer be preyed upon. The Devil has no life (energy) of his own. He is an energy vampire that lives off of the life force of the souls within his domains.

People follow a "Path" for many different reasons, some sincere, some peer pressure / social conformity, some income opportunity, some control opportunity. Most, however, follow because of highly efficient brainwashing often from childhood, by the very same people that rule the world mafias.

The old religions have nothing to do with the subject of real salvation. Even at their origin, their founders ( where there was some spiritual capacity) had access to only a small part of the regions owned by the Devil. They could only provide access up to the level they had reached and only while they where alive. They had no knowledge or access to the purely spiritual worlds beyond the reals matter.

Today, there is true religion that deals with real salvation and it is alive because there is a living link to the regions of pure spirituality far beyond the material regions of the Devil and facilitated by a living adept of the highest order.

However, spirits, being in whatever karmic condition they are in, will find themselves either happy with their mind/ego and its rationals for or against religion, content on a given path or sincerely or insincerely seeking another path or way or solution that will suit them. Few will be inclined to know the true Supreme Being for himself, to know where they are, why they are here and what the true solution is to their salvation. They will be where they want to be and that is just fine. Every soul has the choice of wanting objects of the Devils worlds and remaining attached to it or wanting their true welfare.

The Supreme Being is slowly and mercifully awaking spirits by helping them to realize and face the truth about their current circumstances and they real destiny. But spirits have grown attached to this slaughter house and some force is necessary to slowly bring them to their senses.

Originally posted by Dave Rabbit
.... And only because I don't have the time to back over all of your posts.... there are no Silly Questions... only Silly Answers

Originally posted by Dave Rabbit
put time and thought about why you believe what you do and the path that led you to it.

After reading this, I have only recently thought about this is a path. That when believers go back, and recall the stepping stones of their entrance, that they convey that.

Personally, when earthly paradise was lost for me, Family, Friends, house and home, my daughter, and a way of life that dissapeared, I was left with literally nothing.

That when I stood, alone, in a Motel Room, Sept of 2004, that I spoke allowed and wondered if this is what it is all about. That I as a man am on my own, through thick or thin, I am only a man alone?

And standing there alone, that I spoke allowed. I asked what I had done to deserve this. I asked to be hit by a bolt of lightening, and nothing happened that I could instantly notice that pointed to God.

That March 29th of 2005, some 7 months later, I was standing alone in a room, and I heard a voice speak to me. In that of a woman, and ending in that of a man: And it said:

The Truth is the Truth is the Truth.
The Truth terminates hate,
and restores the Truth.

Looking out the window and wondering what that was, on the verge of a nervous breakdown, and at the edge of sanity, I spoke allowed and said:
That either Im losing my ever loving mind, or it has to be God. And that if I was alone and without God, then the only person that was hearing that conversation was me. But if it was God, well....it was just me and him.

But that wasnt enough, and I spoke allowed, as though one was with me. And I said: " If that was you God, then have a bolt of lightening hit the Space needle".

2 days went by...and nothing happend. Serious doubt had set in, and truly I thought that I had imagined it. As I watched the evening news, I saw the following story as the news broadcaster reported: " Bolt if lightening hit the space needle this afternoon, nobody injured".....

I did an internet search to see if it had been documented at a later date, and here is what I found:

CNN March 31st 2005
HEMMER: Twenty minutes before the hour. Checking this video from Seattle, Washington. Lightning striking the famous Space Needle there. It's 605 feet tall, well prepared, 25 lightning rods there. Those bolts landed while some people were eating lunch. There's a restaurant up there. A few of them, in fact, at the top of the Space Needle on Tuesday. They didn't seem too bothered by it. Some said taking the hit was spectacular. They took some photos along the way. Some of them actually said it was fun, too.

Transcript link below:
transcripts.cnn.com...

I stood in that room, dumbfounded as I held the remote in my hand.

I spoke allowed, and said, " Your real ". In a shocked state of mind.

I then said:"Its not cool to talk about God now days"

and then something came over me where I could understand everything, but heard nothing....and it was said:

" Dont call me God, call me Good "

And then he proceeded to say...

" In the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Lord Jesus Christ "

and proceeded to tell about the family and upbringing by which that had been intended. The change of my lifestyle which was sought, and a task which I have revealed to some.

What happened after, was one of the reasons I came to this site early in 2005 having been a young member.My journey, and my path, has changed my life.

Much has changed since that day, and I have had proof upon proof, which as a man, I hold close to my being. I dont blindly believe there is a God, I know.

My testimony is one of a long path. With many journeys and lessons.
I personally came to ATS to explore the testimony of others, because my experience was so terrific, that even after it happens, that one can downplay the happenening itself. The seed of " self doubt ".

Like a couple once in love, and then breaking up: That each member can or has denied ever being in love, but should the clock be turned back, they would see they were in denial.

Im just a man. Telling my story. I get no boost of ego, or gold stars for doing it. In my moment of need, I called out when I had nothing left, and found that the mystery that all men seek, was all that I needed, after I lost all that I thought I needed. I never needed material wealth, but rather, the Pearl of Great price.

Peace


[edit on 25-9-2008 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Perhaps monsters do not fit in the category with this discussion... No such thing as Monsters.. Just a Halloween Myth. Religous Tolerance is a good thing.

Most regions of the US refer to Halloween as Harvest Festival. So that people
do not become afraid.

Namaste means something..

[edit on 24-9-2008 by mapsurfer_]

My testimony is one of a long path. With many journeys and lessons. I personally came to ATS to explore the testimony of others, because my experience was so terrific, that even after it happens, that one can downplay the happenening itself. The seed of " self doubt ".

Like a couple one in love, and then breaking up: That each member can or has denied ever being in love, but should the clock be turned back, they would see they were in denial.

That was a great story and damn if the quoted stuff isn't true. I have found myself wondering if what I experienced really happened even though I know perfectly well that it did. Self doubt is a dangerous thing and I know exactly what you're talking about. Seeing stories like these certainly helps to keep self doubt at bay. Knowing that there are others that God has directly proven himself to in the most obvious ways where there can be no doubt that it was him. Again, great story!

Religion is a control mechanism.

If religion has rules and it's understood that the people of said religion follow the rules of said religion then it follows that those who make up the rules control the behavior patterns of the followers of said religion.

It's just like the legal system. We all know how certain procedures work and the results of those procedures; so we follow them. Why? Because everyone else operates in those patterns. It's all been laid out for us. We're indoctrinated before we know the word "indoctrinate." This psychological control can be applied to many other aspects of social human interaction. Dating. School. Work. Ordering a cup of coffee. We all must perform certain tasks so that we may live. Knowing how those activities are defined and how they're regulated gives you a modicum of control over how you participate. That is the only freedom we really have.

Religion as a safety blanket? Of course. Just like a lot of other things. That said, true spirituality is independent of religion. You don't need an intermediary to get to God. Churches are for private profit and gain. Adhering to them is silly since the point is to get to God - God is not material as where churches and tithing are.

Exit the doors, watch the sunrise and breath in fresh air. That's what God would want you to do on a Sunday morning.

[edit on 25-9-2008 by bobbygnosis]

Without a doubt religion is just for people who are insecure about death, and nothing more.

reply to post by retzius

a belief in a "god" or a "better place" is an evolutionary adpation to get by when times are hard.

Spot on chief!

If your dental work is as half as good as your rationale, then your patients are in good hands...

reply to post by Dave Rabbit

1. Are people religious because they really believe?

I am convinced that this only goes for a small percentage of all believers.

For example people that have experienced some kind of 'wonder'. Because when you have experienced a so called 'wonder', your convinced no matter what anybody says. This I call 'really believing'.

But any other person would finally have to admit that they 'believe' because this is best for them in the situation they are in. This isn't 'really believing'.

Their family, village or culture 'believes' and it would be strange, an insult or worse not to do the same. So to escape all possible consequences it is best pretending you believe just like everybody around you (seems to do).

And in this case with 'possible consequences' I do not mean 'heaven' or 'hell' but I mean the way people in a situation like this will be treated by their family, village or culture. 'Real life consequences', not those based on a religious point of view.

For example; Bush is a born-again Christian...Why? Because otherwise he would never have won any election...And so on, and so on...'Real life consequences'.

2. Do they simply go through the motions because they are too afraid of the consequences .... just in case there is a Heaven or Hell?

If someone believes in 'heaven' and 'hell' and because of that is afraid...I guess this has little to do with that specific religion in general, but with the way this person has learned (about) this religion.

According to me nobody is 'really afraid of hell'. Because if this was so, there would be a lot of people living their life in fear, I don't see this. Are a lot of people afraid of going to 'hell'? Am I missing something?

On the other hand I can also hardly imagine that people look forward at going to 'heaven' (please forget about suicide bombers and so). Even 'people that follow all rules from the religion they have chosen' and that has promised them a place in heaven for this, don't wanna die or look forward on going to 'heaven'. I guess even when they themselves are convinced having earned a place in heaven, they are afraid of dying.

So people go through these motions for all kinds of individual and personal reasons...Not because their knowledge of 'heaven' and 'hell' is guiding them.

3. Is it simply a security blanket because they want to believe that there is something better after they die and would be miserable if they didn’t believe there was something at the end of the religious rainbow?

This way of thinking is what amazes/irritates me most. Is it a true concept, a true fear or believe that this life is just a 'phase'!? That when you are 80 or 90 years old 'your god' decides what happens from then on?

The disrespect of whole life as we know it that comes with this way of thinking/believing sickens me. And I am afraid it is like you say; Believing is a 'security blanket', but one that only works for the ignorant.

All of this is of course my opinion.

After my ex-wife and i got divorced i found out that she had been told by her priest that..

"If i and my two boys did not become Mormons then she would never see me and my boys later in heaven"

My two boys are now Mormons so they will never know any different and likely never Question that belief.

Fear seemed to be the main tool used to bring my Ex back to the church.
Fear not love or compassion or even respect for the creator.....but FEAR.

My Partner, who proclaims to be a devout Catholic, likely subscribes to 'Part 1' of Dave's hypothesis.


Despite my intent insistence, and attempt to use science, I have yet to hear him acknowledege anything other than the 'Catholic' litany.....

So, what am I to do? Throw up my hands in despair???

This is why I have found Dave Rabbit's thread, so compelling.

Yes, I've run afoul of the rules....but I hope what I write now, do not.

A person, who I am in a relatonship with, happens to hold an opinion that I don't comport with.....yet, we work it out.

Maybe others, who stumble upon this thread, may feel free to proclaim...anyone??? Don't want to just hear crickets......

Back to my Partner....he feels comfort, in his Catholicism. I have to accept that, even if I don't understand it......because I will, personally, never accept any ONE religion....but I can learn to accept what someone someone else chooses as a religion.....because, when it all boils down, RELIGION is a choice, after all.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
My Partner, who proclaims to be a devout Catholic, likely subscribes to 'Part 1' of Dave's hypothesis.


Despite my intent insistence, and attempt to use science, I have yet to hear him acknowledege anything other than the 'Catholic' litany.....

So, what am I to do? Throw up my hands in despair???

This is why I have found Dave Rabbit's thread, so compelling.

Yes, I've run afoul of the rules....but I hope what I write now, do not.

A person, who I am in a relatonship with, happens to hold an opinion that I don't comport with.....yet, we work it out.

Maybe others, who stumble upon this thread, may feel free to proclaim...anyone??? Don't want to just hear crickets......

Back to my Partner....he feels comfort, in his Catholicism. I have to accept that, even if I don't understand it......because I will, personally, never accept any ONE religion....but I can learn to accept what someone someone else chooses as a religion.....because, when it all boils down, RELIGION is a choice, after all.

(* this contains a new story, be patient)

Your partner hasn't been given a good enough reason to leave his "faith".
He sits comfortably where he's at. Plus, some men, maybe not yours, will hold on tighter to their blanket when someone is pulling on it, trying to take it away from them.


(I know I've said this but it goes deeper and I can't edit my last post to insert this there.)My reason for going from "believing" to disbelieving was my disagreement in the belief that men rule the household. It made no sense and I fought it. The more questions I had about this issue, the more questions arose, but it was the initial question that led me into my search for answers.

Men are more comfortable in a belief that lets them be little gods of their own household. Why would they feel the need to change that? Even if they're not the overbearing type(my husband is not that type), they've still been offered something women have not, the choice to take the reigns or not. So they can take it or leave it. Women, in most religions, are told that if they don't accept second place in the home, they're "sinning"...I have issues with that. It's what drove me. Your partner probably hasn't found anything he disagrees with because everything benefits him and works in his favor, why question it?

My dad was this way(*). He followed everything the pastor of our church told him to do and it ended up killing him, in a round about way. He never stopped to question whether or not any of what he was doing made sense, because he was taught not to go against the "faith". "Faith" covered all unanswered questions and leave it at that, even if it means starving your own children to feed the less fortunate ones all over the neighborhood. Even if it means not buying new clothes for your children to go to school in because the pastor said you'll have great rewards in heaven if you put your extra money in the offering plate. Put aside your wicked common sense and just have "faith". Remember the story about the poor unnamed lady who put her last two coins into the offering plate? Her starving children will thank her one day(soon) when they get to heaven.~sarcasm~

Anyway, now, my reasons for not blindly believing are different.

I like to know the truth. Truth is very important to me. I like being told the truth. I don't like being lied to. Being lied to makes me kind of angry.

I feel the Bible is half lies, because it was written by imperfect, greedy, murderous men.

I don't like being told that it's "God's inerrant word" because I know that that's a lie. We're supposed to be a reflection of him? made in his image? If God is all that's good in us then he didn't write that book.





(BTW, I'm so glad this isn't a debate thread, that's so nice. That way people can let loose their true emotions and passions can flow without someone thinking they're aimed at them...don't you just love it when passions flow? I know I do. Simply beautiful thread, again.)

[edit on 26-9-2008 by mmariebored]

I have an athiest father and a church-going Catholic mother. I'm what would be called a devout Catholic and have graduate and post-graduate degrees in theology, history and philosophy. So, I'm "big" into my faith both as a practise and form of worship and a constant intellectual pursuit.
I say with all honesty and without any caveat that my athiest father is my greatest hero in the world - an example of a courageous and good living gentleman. My family has suffered much and I as an individual have experienced a range of personal sufferings which one therapist considered enough for several lives, let alone the first 23 years of one life - I wish I could give more details but, alas, it's not in my nature to share intimate details where anonymity is never guaranteed. All that is a preface to attempting to answer the questions in the OP:

1. Are people religious because they really believe?
I believe I have a personal relationship with Christ through which I might approach, in a very limited way, the splendour of the Father's love by the Spirit's presence in my life. But not all the time! I have times of doubt and as, forgive me, an apparently educated and intelligent person compulsively have many questions. I'm not a literalist where scripture is concerned and so thoughts of the purpose of life still occupy me. Answers such as I am "to love and serve the Lord" etc. never entirely convince me. The problem of evil in the world, and in my own experiences of life, lead me, naturally to question "why?" I have no answers and I don't think any answers are actually available to me. I often reach a stage where there is a choice between abandoning faith and persisting in it without definite answers and remaining confusion. In these moments I can identify the experience of my remembrance of graces received which have made my heart soar and rather than cut myself off from ever experiencing such joys again I choose to persist in faith. I tell Him "ok then, I'm still here." Belief makes some things easier and some things harder in life.

2. Do they simply go through the motions because they are too afraid of the consequences .... just in case there is a Heaven or Hell?
Don't forget the third option that Catholicism speaks of - "purgatory"!
I try to live the best life I can not to please God, per se, but because God has created me to enjoy living life the best I can. That salvation is involved is certainly true but I don't live life trying to "card count" for that last big gamble but because I think a life lived well is the best lived life. Interestingly I think the Gospels suggest that it is not God who judges us but we who make that final judgement. (i) A hellish self-judgement which despises the utter goodness of God in that first post-death vision of Him - a heart so diminished by greed and hate and such things that it cannot but reject Him and spend eternity in self-imposed exile from God stewing in those same hatreds. (ii) A purging self-judgement which has that first vision of God's wonder and realises "I could have done better" and what it was all actually about and moves away to mend and mould the heart to fully accept that reality. (iii) A heavenly self-judgement in which a heart enlarged by a life of charity and virtue finds in the divine gaze it's natural home.
It all depends on how well trained the heart is through the exercises of life. Some people exercise because they want to reach a certain goal, some exercise for the sake of being fit - I believe to be fit.

(I tried to gon onto another post and answer the third question but it got lost somewhere. Oh well. The gist of my answer was belief does not make me immune to misery in this life - why should it. Faith for me is "jam in the hand" not "pie in the sky". It's helping my brothers and sisters alleviate their own miseries. I watch my father do this, without faith, his heart will be ready to find its home in the God Who's beauty will surprise him.)

[edit on 26/9/08 by Supercertari]