Okay. I know what you are saying.... “Dave Rabbit Is Talking About Religion? Say It Isn’t So.”. Actually, it is a matter of public record that I am Agnostic by choice. I believe that something or someone created everything, I just don’t buy all that the religious community is dishing out. Now, before you start posting all the Bible banging rhetoric, put me on prayer lists, cut off chicken’s heads, run naked through the streets with poisonous snakes dangling from your arms and try to save my soul .... a little background.

Up until my Mother divorced my Father when I was 6, we were Roman Catholic. My youth was filled with Nuns who would smack my hands with a ruler when I was disruptive and I would be a millionaire today if I had a dollar for every time that took place. Once their divorce was through, my Mother changed she and I over to the Presbyterian faith, which at the time was a modernized Step-Catholic Church that still had priests that were called “Father”. I remember hearing my Mother once describe it as “Catholics Without The Pope”.

My Father had visitation twice a month and we would always go to where my Father and Step-Mother had a “Ranch” in East Texas that was out in a remote area with the nearest Catholic Church a good 90 minutes away from where we were. Every Sunday morning that I was with my Father, at 5 a.m., he would wake myself and my two younger half brothers (same Father), fix us breakfast... then we would take a boring 90 minute drive to the nearest town for 8 a.m. mass....... an hour of that..... then 90 minutes back..... lunch...... and then rushing through 2 hours of the rest of the day before we had to start heading back to Dallas at 3 p.m. so my Father could have me back at my Mother’s house by 6 p.m. What a fun week-end for a kiddo. Whoopee. Being a Roman Catholic, my Father, of course, was ex-communicated because of his divorce with my Mother. One Sunday, when I was in my early teens I saw my Father take communion. When I questioned my Mother about it, she told me my Father had paid the Catholic Church a sum of money and had the records changed where his marriage to my Mother, in the Roman Catholic Church’s eyes, never existed. Therefore, I became a bastard in the Roman Catholic church because my father loved his God and church more than he loved his first born son and taking communion was his Holy Grail. Oh joy. Just another straw that would help break my spiritual camel’s back.

When I wasn’t with my Father, my Mother dragged me to church with her. I didn’t enjoy it. Even then I felt like there was something missing and I just couldn’t put my finger on it. I remember one time at the Presbyterian Church we were members of.... walking down the aisle with a few friends (we were around 10) and seeing a girl we knew sitting on the pew, talking to herself then opening her Bible. While closing her eyes, she would allow her finger to land on the Bible beneath her. Curious, we asked her what she was doing. She said ”I’m asking God questions and he is taking my finger and giving me my answers.” Needless to say, we all thought she was nuts.

I don’t recall the name of the religion, but it’s the one where people jump up, shake their hands in the air, speak in tongues, roll on the floor, etc. I’m about 16 when a friend of mine ask me to spend the week-end with him and Sunday morning I get to experience that. Needless to say, I didn’t spend another week-end with that kid or his family.

If memory serves, the last time I stepped foot in any religious place again was Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam during the Tet Offensive in 1968 when we thought we were going to be overrun by Viet Cong. It’s funny... I only remember going to confession.... doing the rosary.... saying a few “Our Father’s” and “Hail Mary’s” then exiting out in time to grab my M-16 and hunker down as the VC rockets and mortars slammed into our base.

Okay.... now for the topic of discussion. And let me preface by saying that I totally respect those of all religions and faiths and their right to believe what their faith or religion might dictate to them. I never debate politics or religion, because there is never a winner.... it is like Tic Tac Toe..... the majority of the time it ends in a draw. A better example for me is one of my favorite movies, War Games. After trying every nuclear war scenario possible, the computer finally says ”The Only Way To Win The Game Is Not To Play”. So, you are wasting your time if you want to debate me.... I won’t do it. I simply want Your Opinion And Thoughts.

What I do want is to make a statement and have you post your feelings and thoughts about it, whether pro, con or giving everyone a different perspective. Depending on whether our community can follow an intelligent dialogue, without bashing each other’s opinions, beliefs or philosophies..... we MIGHT take a few of the best ones from different stances and use them on an ATS MIX show somewhere down the way. So, here are my questions to each of you.

1. Are people religious because they really believe?

2. Do they simply go through the motions because they are too afraid of the consequences .... just in case there is a Heaven or Hell?

3. Is it simply a security blanket because they want to believe that there is something better after they die and would be miserable if they didn’t believe there was something at the end of the religious rainbow?

Okay... that’s it. Remember to keep it T & C. Please address your comments as a matter of your own personal faith or lack of... state your reasons.... but above all.... Be Respectful Of ALL POSTERS.

Let’s hear you.

Dave

Star & Flag Only If It Merits It To YOU.

[edit on 9/21/2008 by Dave Rabbit]

Fear not Dave, I am working on a very thought out reply to your post. However, i take this as a serious inquiry on your part and i am spending the time to also reply seriously and with compassion and clarity of thought. I just need more time to respond.

Nice thread Dave and some good points.

I wish we would abolish organized religion in every way and make it individual religion.

Let people read several books and standpoints and make up their own mind.

So many kids and adults are still brainwashed by organized religions that I am against it.

S&F

Grey Magic

Sorry and To answer your Question;

Yes organised Religion is a security blanket.

No single being in this universe can understand the whole universe but god.

if we wouldn't have an afterlife he would just be our slaveholder.

why would you need to go to organised religion to have faith in that?

I have read one of my favorite scifi books lately, Hyperion.

A part of that books talks about Abraham offering his son to god and the possibility that Abraham wasn't only tested by God but that Abraham was testing the kindness of God himself.

Life is the biggest gift and test God gave us.

Edit - for a more serious answer.

[edit on 20-9-2008 by Grey Magic]

My Opinion on Religion:

I have none.

While I don't really have any faith at all, and cannot even comprehend it, there are far too many geniuses who had faith. Einstein, for example, understood far more about the universe than I ever will, and he still had faith.

So, more than being critical of religion, I am jealous. However, I do wish those with faith would use it towards good more than they do. So many use religion and faith as a means of hatred instead of peace.

There are so many forms of "religion" out there... believing in anything religiously is probably a bad thing unless you've fully experienced it and understood what it is you were experiencing... but even then, experience is not a concrete thing. That's the true meaning of faith, anyway. Personal experience of the divine... putting faith in the way of it all to change as it may.

A lot of people get a strong emotion because of the pretty words or the beautiful music or the fact that everyone around them is crying and getting emotional for the same reasons, and think that they are experiencing God. In a very fractional way, I guess so... but I don't think anyone who understands the ways of existence would cling to and depend too strongly to one particular thing, whether it be religion or a fluffy emotion or political affiliation or money or their car or the name of the particular piece of soil sticking out of the ocean that they live on....

Nothing that we experience with our five senses in this universe is permanent. I think the only thing a person should have faith in is change and the infinite possibilities of change's evolution. All religions will cease to exist one day, same with all countries, all physical or mental affiliations, all bias, all matters at hand... so think of it that way. Have faith in not holding anything so sacred that it destroys you with it's own demise.

No religion, or religious-like belief, is the "right" religion. They are all shortsighted and dependent on their own collective ego's finite existence, therefore nixing away any true faith anyone could possibly have in them.

I think Taoism is perhaps the only religion to have come close to truth... but the problem is human perception. If someone (such as the teacher of whom is credited with a religion's origin) speaks truth, it is automatically false... because how could a limited vocabulary of a limited language every explain creation? The person speaking could understand whatever truth he attempts to speak, yet the people who interpret what is being spoken obviously do not understand the experiences of the teacher or the concepts which arose from such experiences. How could any spoken word ever do it justice when words are always being misinterpreted to align with limited perspectives attempting to understand yet not knowing exactly what they are trying to understand?

Religious teachings have failed because people seek convenient answers which make life easier... but life isn't always convenient or simple, therefore why would that which created the existence of being be located in a convenient set of doctrines built upon our limited awareness?

Convenience, which is kind of a friendly way of saying "lack of self-responsibility", I guess is a big giant security blanket. You could compare religion to cell phones or automobiles, because "what would I do without it!?"

I guess you'd be figuring "it" out for yourself.

[edit on 20-9-2008 by dunwichwitch]

[edit on 20-9-2008 by dunwichwitch]

People want to think thier life had meaning and pourpose and that once you die its simply not the end.

IMHO religion exploits both the fear of death and the fear of finality and have carved itself quite a nitch business

WOW..What an outstanding post and this is tough to answer but I will do my best to provide how I feel: I have a notion that there this some higher power guiding us and I dont attend church and I have no religious background but I feel that if I lose focus on just trying to get through the rigors of daily life then at the end of the day pray to god to do this and do that and meanwhile life is passing me by, I live each day as if it is a gift, since the places ive been and things I have seen I dont think the typical eveyday person could handle so I pull from the strength from within and that is my security blanket.

I often ask myself this: if John America had been born in China as Lee China, would he be a Christian? Or something else?

Humans are unsettled (even afraid) by the unknown, whether they want to admit it or not, and there is nothing so unknown as death. We live our lives with that axe hanging over our heads, not knowing when it's going to fall (ideally it would be sometime in the very, very remote future, or better yet, never!) Alas, it so happens that we're mortals, and the last option is not available.

I sometimes think that the idea of an afterlife is nothing more than a deep desire to continue to exist (in some form or another, better that than simply ceasing to exist altogether!) after death. We hope there is something more after death. Surely it can't be the end of it all?

Fear not, my brethren, there is hope! There is a way to survive death! Take a good guess...

Is it mere coincidence that religion apparently answers the question of an afterlife? I can't help but sometimes see it as preying on that fear of the unknown. In that light, yes, some people go with it because it seems the safest option. Just in case.

That said, my mother is a very religious person, and probably the most practical person I know. I believe she prays for strength and guidance, otherwise she puts her back into everything she does. Perhaps I am biased because she is my mother, but I believe she believes in God because she truly believes. She is not seeking to secure a ticket to the afterlife, she is human, and understands other humans and their needs, and (somehow) religion helps her work better. That in itself tells me that there are people who believe because it's truly in their hearts.

For the record I am not atheist, more of an agnostic maybe. I do think there is a strong possibility something akin to a god is somewhere out there, but when I look around at this [messed up] world of ours, I see nothing of the Christian God (read: benevolent all round goody goody God).

The above is MY opinion, as most things are relative I can only speak for myself.

But it's simple really. It seems I can't stomach the Christian God. Therefore, I choose to ignore him. Choosing to believe in him because I am worried he might exist is hypocrisy to me, and he would know, he is God after all. If I am headed to Satan's dwelling because of that, at least I can say that I was honest with myself.

Edit to add that FredT has eloquently put into a few words what I had in mind before me.

[edit on 21/9/08 by Anomander]

[edit on 21/9/08 by Anomander]

Is Religion Simply A Security Blanket?

Of course not! Dave, every society that has ever existed, no matter how small, has always chosen to believe and worship a higher power. They chose to believe in a higher power because they have not been separated by modern technology from the basic facts of life. If you have any inkling that there is a God, then you have to remind yourself that all three of the major religions believe that we are living in a world that is ever increasingly being dominated by evil. Therefore, it is every increasingly more difficult to see God working in your daily life.

It is not strange to me at all that your post concerning the fundamentals of your agnosticism starts from a personally troubled and conflicted religious family upbringing.

My youth was filled with Nuns who would smack my hands with a ruler when I was disruptive…Up until my Mother divorced my Father when I was 6, we were Roman Catholic. …my Mother changed she and I over to the Presbyterian faith…

It is clear that you resent the way that you were treated second class to religion by your father.

What a fun week-end for a kiddo. Whoopee.

As well as…

Therefore, I became a bastard in the Roman Catholic Church because my father loved his God and church more than he loved his first born son and taking communion was his Holy Grail.

However, what you said next is the essential bottom line of your family history.

Oh joy. Just another straw that would help break my spiritual camel’s back.

But let me take a moment to answer your other questions before returning back to the first one, which I believe is more of a personal question than a public one.

Are people religious because they really believe?

It takes all kinds Dave. The Bible speaks of people becoming religious, or wanting to become religious, for every possible reason that you can think of. Power, Money, True Worship, Friendship and Fellowship, Governmental Control, Convert Members, Ect Ect.

Do they simply go through the motions because they are too afraid of the consequences .... just in case there is a Heaven or Hell?

Many may start out that way, but most move on to true worship. You can’t see this stage because you’re still at the beginning stages of worship.

Is it simply a security blanket because they want to believe that there is something better after they die and would be miserable if they didn’t believe there was something at the end of the religious rainbow?

So, here we are back to the beginning of your post. The answer is, of course not Dave. Firstly, if you really want to discover anything enlightening about religion then you have to acknowledge that you harbor a very personal grudge against ever learning about God. If you cannot chose to even attempt to take an open mind about the subject, then discussing things further would not be productive. I would spend the time, if I can, to discuss things with you further, but I feel that it may be best if done privately. Why is this?

It involves logic. Logically, if there is a God, then it must be possible for each and every individual to discover him of their own accord. In essence, you don’t need anyone else to discover God if you are really searching for him. Most people who claim to be searching for God are not actually trying to do so. Instead, like spoiled children (as St Thomas Aquinas stated), they simply are taking a contrarian view of God for personal reasons.

These people constantly ask themselves the following types of questions. Why did God let my parents Die? Why wasn’t I born rich, famous, or more physically attractive? Why did God allow me to be abused or hurt when I was young, innocent, or incapable of defending myself? Why did God take away someone that I loved? Why didn’t God help me? And as Christ said, “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?

As you can see, you are not the only one to ask these kinds questions or to feel betrayed or abandoned by God. I think that if you read the story of Job in the New American Standard Bible then it may help you to understand that you are not alone in your thinking. The book of Job describes a man who had it all until God decided to allow Satan to test him. All of Job’s children were killed in a single day. During the same day, he was robbed of all his wealth and afflicted with a horrible and painful skin condition. Needless to say, he was absolutely broken of his will in all regards save one, his belief in God.

As some of these people who harbor resentment against God get older, their questions turn into anger and frustration, and yet instead of attempting to seek God out for the answers, they demand that God seek them out and answer directly for his supposed inaction regarding their life. This is why discussing matters of religion in regards to agnosticism and atheism is almost always unproductive. The agnostic or atheist usually is angry and resentful against God and so chooses not to search for him.

The reason that St. Thomas Aquinas regards people who do not believe in God as “spoiled children” because the logic for the existence of God is overwhelming. The Greeks and the Romans of antiquity offer the greatest treasure of logic concerning the existence of a higher power. Their belief systems are self generated, which is why they had a God for anything and everything that was considered of or for a higher power. The weather, the elements, the factors of human existence beyond understanding such as love and hatred; each of these had their own God devoted to them by the Greeks and the Romans. However Pagan their religions were, it was their advanced love of logic a reasoning that behooved a firm belief in a higher power. As well, no matter how many Gods the Greeks or Romans created, all of them were subservient or below the pinnacle or ruler of the Gods, Zeus.

St. Thomas Aquinas stated that the existence of God is self evident in most people. Human history itself proves this to be true in that every society that has ever existed has created or adopted a system of belief in a higher power. As well, we all ready stated that logically, if there is a God, then it must be able for anyone to discover him of their own accord. History also proves this to be true in that societies that are isolated from the rest of the world also have created their own belief systems around the idea of a higher power, or God.

(I need to tie this post up, more later if you want)

However, for me the most abundantly clear evidence that most agnostics are simply rebelling against God instead of remaining logically or scientifically unconvinced of his existence is because of the simple fact that most agnostics refuse to study religion as a topic in general. Most agnostics never bother to read The Bible, The Quran, or The Torah. Instead, they adamantly refuse to believe in God, while at the same time, refusing to learn anything about particular religions of the world, past or present.

It would seem to me that an agnostic should be the most learned and expert person concerning religion as they remain unconvinced about a topic that 98 percent of all humans that have ever existed have accepted. Not surprisingly however, most agnostics know little to nothing about the religious beliefs and practices of current or past religions.

In essence Dave, finding God is a personal journey that you have to make for yourself. Other people can only guide you, but if you choose to remain rebellious to the idea God that most people accept then you will most certainly never find God.

At one time we all thought Santa was real.

i was watching a Disney cartoon with my kid's..Hercule's....

Well it dawned on me
At one point in time this goofy cartoon Hercules was basically the greek's Jesus christ.

son of god but mortal.

all religion's are fake.faith based

you can have faith in a computer does not meen it's god.

not to mention the bible cost's 19.99 USD...word of god has a price tag

Ya know I'm not religious...obviously from my post... but I see truth buried deep in all religions. They are all basically saying the same thing.

With that being said, I've never read the Bible fully...

So I stole a Gideon Bible from my hotel room yesterday!

Placed by the Gideons, taken by the conspiracy theorists!

Wow, what an awesome thread! First I would have to say that I look at spirituality and religion as separate things. I say this because I believe that all religious people are spiritual, but not all spiritual people are religious. I am the latter. To me spirituality is a personal journey that I am on alone. No rules, no dogma, no commandments, just a search for a higher truth.

With that in mind, I do think that for most religion is a security blanket. They want to take the easy way out and have someone or some ancient text tell them what is and what is not, what is right and what is wrong, instead of trying to find those answers on their own.

There are certain things in common with most religions that are a determent to this journey. Almost all religions claim that they are the only true way to find the Divine (I don't like using the word God because it carries too many religious overtones for me). And if you don't believe what they are preaching, then you are at best going to spend eternity in limbo (Jewish teachings) or at worst going to spend eternity burning in the eternal flames of 'Hell' (Christian and Islamic teachings). If this is true, then at least two thirds of us are doomed. All this from what they will all tell you is a kind and loving God. I find this hard to believe in.

I believe in the end, be you Christian, Muslim, Jew, Agnostic, Aethist, Buddist, Taoist, Wiccan, Pagan or Purple Spagetti Monstratarian, we all end up in the same place, together, with the Divine. You'll see me out on the other threads doing battle against those who get all preachy with their defense of their religions, but in the end, we're all on the same journey. I also firmly believe in the Eastern philosophy of reincarnation, so some of us will have to make more trips back than others, because religion holds the individual back on this journey. In the end, it's this journey that really matters, not politics or who really shot JFK or 'is that the Twin Towers on the moon?' To cling to Dogma and Ancient Texts is to hide from really discovering what 'God' is and why we are really here, because if you've already had your mind made up, there is no room for further discovery. Well, that's my two cents worth on the subject.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]