JFK's sniper's rifle

JFk's reputed assasination, Lee Harvey Oswald, supposedly shot JFk with a light world war two sniper rifle from the second floor of the book depository building. According to the government, the rifle fired three rounds, one going through JFK's neck and into the hip of the man next to him, a second one missed, and the third took off most of his skull. All this in about five seconds. Could an older sniper rifle (IDK the make) fire as many rounds so fast?

The rifle in question was a 6.5x52mm mannlicher carcano bolt action rifle.

And yes it is indeed possible to fire the shots as quickly as claimed... add to that Oswald being marksman qualified by the US marine corps and you have a very plausible story. On the Surface.

It's only when you realize one of the two investigations done by the US government concluded that there was more to the story that things start to come apart for what could have been a plausible story.

lOswalds rifle

British royal marines during the second world war were required to fire at least 20 rounds per minute from a bolt action rifle

many could crank that up to a little over 30 rounds per minute

3 shots 5 seconds and no reload ...easy

Indeed .... that's what makes the Kennedy assassination such a sticky thing to argue...

It was completelly possible for the event to have happened the way it supposedly did.

I'm not even super good with bolt action rifles and with my finnish nagant rifle I could make 3 shots on a target moving that speed in the required time 100% of the time.

A little off topic but related,

I just saw a 1969 made movie movie called "Exectutive Action"

it was full of big name stars of the time, and was about how the military industrial complex had JFK assasinated.

Man it was good movie, not like Stone's POS fantasy "JFK"

This group had picked oswald as the patsy before he even went to the ussr.
As they were manipulating him, they found out they werent the only ones doing so. In the movie these men had discovered a second plot to asasinate Kennedy, by elements of the government.

They brought up a few things that Ive never know about,
1) kennedy's secret service detail went out drinking the night before, (A huge NO NO) and several members did not report for duty the mornig of the shooting and were replaced that morning.
2) Several witnesses, reported seeing 2-3 men on the grassy knoll immediatley prior to the shooting. Including a dallas policeman, who approached the men and they provided secret service credentials. The secret service denies having any agents in the area of the grassy knoll prior to the shooting.
3) Of the 19? material witnesses identified by the FBI during the immediate investigation, 16 were dead by 1967
4) Kennedys route was changed in the days leading up to the parade order to take the motorcade through dealy plaza.

If you have an interest in the kennedy assasination I highly recommend this movie IT WILL OPEN YOUR EYES.

Kennedy was a sitting duck so to speak, as there were more than one plot against him.

[edit on 20-9-2008 by punkinworks]

3 shots in 5 seconds is EASY but try scoring 2/3 head shots on a moving target in under 5 seconds.......... i saw a show before where they had a world class marksman and he couldnt even come close to the 5 sec mark

[edit on 20-9-2008 by bravo40]

keep in mind also that the timing only has to include two shots.. because the clock starts at the first shot.. which would have been carefully aimed.. he only needed to pull off two more in six or so seconds..

as far as the magic bullet goes did anyone see the myth busters episode recreating that shot? it was possible..

just not very likely..

I have shot one of the 6.5x52mm carcano's and what a POS. Add the 3/4" scope that had a very small field of view. With a good bolt gun you could do it, with the carcano set up with the scope that was on it I have a lot of questions.

Could it just be that the barrel on the one you'd shot was old and worn out though?

the snipers nest was on the sixth floor not the second. Know your facts

The 6.5 Carcano rifle is not a good rifle at all, much less for sniper work. It ejects spent cartridge casings straight up and directly behind the firer's head... this means a scope must be mounted to the left of the reciever. Parallex comes into play here, especially at a moving target. Also the weapon cocks upon CLOSING of the bolt.... try keeping it on target while exerting about 4 pounds of bolt closing pressure. I have fired about 1000 rounds through mine and found it to be a good plinking rifle but not good for any serious work.

Dropped once never shot. Barrel was in good shape, if you could get past the really really bad trigger and the bolt that was very hard to work it could shoot 2" groups at 100yds with Norma ammo when sand bagged in. Also with the scope you had a very small field of view, was not even close to being as good as a 4x $25 tasco.

Item that many do not know is that the barrel is a "gain twist" design. The rifling starts slow and increases in pitch. I have not worked in a crime lab but this should result in smearing of the rifling groves on a fired bullet. Seems that this would give the lab guy a hard time matching things up.

I do not know how many on this page have ever shot an animal in the head with a high powered firearm but the type of bullet used and the velocity that it hits makes a major difference in the effect on the skull. a FMJ round nose 160 gr. 6.5 bullet at about 2000 fps tends to punch a pretty strait hole with an exit wound about like the entrance wound. I am not saying it could not produce the head wound that was present but that looks a lot more like a higher velocity expanding bullet wound to me. Nothing like an o6 or 300 mag more like a .257 roberts or .243.

there is a book that was written by the doctor that worked on the President that goes into a lot of detail about the wounds and other issues. I can not remember the title but if you can find it read it.

Oswald was shooting at range of only 60 (first shot) to 90 (last shot) yards
Do able with some practice - Oswald was certified as Marine Sharpshooter
at 200 and 600 yards so knew how to shoot.

One cable show few years back did complete reenactment using Carcano
rifle firing from elevated platform at anatomical correct dummies moving
at same speed at JFK. Was able to duplicate so called "magic bullet"
shot almost exactly on first try . Only difference was that their shot
hit 2 of the dummy's ribs and lacked sufficent velocity to lodge in
thigh like did with Connolly .

yep, that was the myth busters show I was referring to.. when they found the bullet in the grass after the shot my jaw dropped to the floor.. the magic bullet theory was supposed to be the most definitive BS story ever told.. I never looked at "smoking gun" evidence the same after that.. one of the best examples of why we need to be skeptical of assumptions.. especially by so called "experts"..

It is my understanding that this weapon was a very unreliable Italian riffle, a Marine sniper I would think would prefer the German WWII bolt action sniper riffle, it was thought that the German sniper riffle of the time was even better in service than its lesser counterpart from America. So why would a Marine not go for what has been a proven battlefield design.

A little off beat but I thought that the hand dominance issue also slowed Oswald's chambering speed also didn't he have to reach over the weapon to work the bolt? I thought I saw that on some documentry.

It is my understanding that this weapon was a very unreliable Italian riffle, a Marine sniper I would think would prefer the German WWII bolt action sniper riffle, it was thought that the German sniper riffle of the time was even better in service than its lesser counterpart from America. So why would a Marine not go for what has been a proven battlefield design.

Reason Oswald went with this rifle is because it was cheap - only 19.99
with scope. It may have not been the best, but was good enough....

reply to post by waterdoctor


Roger. Just covering off an angle. Thanks for the info, quite interesting.

Originally posted by roguetechie
Indeed .... that's what makes the Kennedy assassination such a sticky thing to argue...

It was completelly possible for the event to have happened the way it supposedly did.

I'm not even super good with bolt action rifles and with my finnish nagant rifle I could make 3 shots on a target moving that speed in the required time 100% of the time.

Way off topic: what model is you mosin nagant? Just out of curiosity

reply to post by bravo40



I saw that show as well, very interesting.
The show itself however did seem bias and aimed towards the Conspiracy angle, as it should.

You also have to remember, the first shot in which Oswald supposedly had plenty of time to sight and aim... was not the kill shot.

I have wondered before if Oswald thought he would be firing more than one shot to achieve the kill.

Out of interest, why should it be bias towards the conspiracy angle?