reply to post by AshleyD
I guess my whole point with this thread is that it cannot be proven one way or the other. I myself just want to live in a world where we adopt a
social respect for each other on the topic of spirituality. There are a lot of Christians and Muslims in the world who would like to force the rest
of us to believe what they believe with 'evidence' that we don't accept the way they do. I personally don't think there is a wrong way to
believe, even if you don't believe at all. Too often judgements are made about a person based on their beliefs. Isn't it in the Bible, "Judge not
lest ye be judged?" or something very simular? As an example, I have made statements concerning my beliefs towards Christianity, and have been
called either an Aetheist or a Satanist, neither of which is true.
The Evidence in Jesus' Divinity is Nothing But Heresay., page 2
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reply posted on 21-9-2008 @ 09:42 PM by AshleyD
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
Agreed. As I like to say, Jesus' historicity is a matter of fact, His divinity is a matter of faith. Of course for me they are both matters of fact but you know what I'm trying to say. lol I do believe there is a way to test Jesus' divinity through the scientific method, though. Even then, the 'God hypothesis' would only be bumped up to 'God theory.' It will never be 'PROOF' for all people.
About the 'judge not' rule: This is just like the old adage 'judge the sin but not the sinner.' We are told a wise man makes judgments on all things and that all scripture is suitable for teaching and rebuke. An example of allowed statements and misbehavior would be this.
Within Scripture: Stealing is a sin.
Against Scripture: You dirty rotten thief. You are a terrible person.
Huge difference. Or another one.
Within Scripture: Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation. The only options are Jesus and Heaven or denial of Jesus and Hell.
Against Scripture: You dirty rotten hell bound heathen.
So we can judge, rebuke, and teach. We are simply not supposed to throw the first stone and to check the log in our own eye.
Agreed. As I like to say, Jesus' historicity is a matter of fact, His divinity is a matter of faith. Of course for me they are both matters of fact but you know what I'm trying to say. lol I do believe there is a way to test Jesus' divinity through the scientific method, though. Even then, the 'God hypothesis' would only be bumped up to 'God theory.' It will never be 'PROOF' for all people.
About the 'judge not' rule: This is just like the old adage 'judge the sin but not the sinner.' We are told a wise man makes judgments on all things and that all scripture is suitable for teaching and rebuke. An example of allowed statements and misbehavior would be this.
Within Scripture: Stealing is a sin.
Against Scripture: You dirty rotten thief. You are a terrible person.
Huge difference. Or another one.
Within Scripture: Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation. The only options are Jesus and Heaven or denial of Jesus and Hell.
Against Scripture: You dirty rotten hell bound heathen.
So we can judge, rebuke, and teach. We are simply not supposed to throw the first stone and to check the log in our own eye.
reply posted on 22-9-2008 @ 01:12 PM by queenofangels_17
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
Jaxon,
Muslims are not forcing anybody to believe anything.
They make a statement of fact and it's up to the readers to believe or not, there is no compulsion. Who will benefit the belief, but someone who is guided to the truth?
As for the OP. The Evidence of Jesus' Divinity is pure CONJECTURE. The Scriptures revealed to Abraham, Noah,Moses, David, Jesus and all the prophets up to the Prophet Muhammad bears testimony of ONLY ONE GOD.
002.163 Your God is One God; there is no God save Him, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
003.018 Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him the Almighty, the Wise.
007.059 We sent Noah (of old) unto his people, and he said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. Lo! I fear for you the retribution of an Awful Day.
007.158 Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no God save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.
009.129 Now, if they turn away (O Muhammad) say: Allah sufficeth me. There is no God save Him. In Him have I put my trust, and He is Lord of the Tremendous Throne.
To believe that Jesus is Divine is IDOLATRY, an unforgivable sin in the sight of God.
009.031 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
004.048 Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin.
AND JESUS himself said :
004.116 Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.
I hope that answers your question OP, this is the Truth, God guide to the truth whom He wills.
006.151 Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you: That ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury - We provide for you and for them - and that ye draw not nigh to lewd things whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern.
Just to be clear, Jaxon. There is no compulsion to believe, whoever believes and put their faith in God and ascribe no partners to Him does so for the good of his own soul.
Do not be like the Pharaoh who put faith ONLY when it was too late and his faith could not avail him.
010.090 And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
010.091 What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers ?
010.092 But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents.
www.youtube.com...
Peace!
Jaxon,
Muslims are not forcing anybody to believe anything.
They make a statement of fact and it's up to the readers to believe or not, there is no compulsion. Who will benefit the belief, but someone who is guided to the truth?
As for the OP. The Evidence of Jesus' Divinity is pure CONJECTURE. The Scriptures revealed to Abraham, Noah,Moses, David, Jesus and all the prophets up to the Prophet Muhammad bears testimony of ONLY ONE GOD.
002.163 Your God is One God; there is no God save Him, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
003.018 Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him the Almighty, the Wise.
007.059 We sent Noah (of old) unto his people, and he said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. Lo! I fear for you the retribution of an Awful Day.
007.158 Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no God save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.
009.129 Now, if they turn away (O Muhammad) say: Allah sufficeth me. There is no God save Him. In Him have I put my trust, and He is Lord of the Tremendous Throne.
To believe that Jesus is Divine is IDOLATRY, an unforgivable sin in the sight of God.
009.031 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
004.048 Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin.
AND JESUS himself said :
004.116 Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.
I hope that answers your question OP, this is the Truth, God guide to the truth whom He wills.
006.151 Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you: That ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury - We provide for you and for them - and that ye draw not nigh to lewd things whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern.
Just to be clear, Jaxon. There is no compulsion to believe, whoever believes and put their faith in God and ascribe no partners to Him does so for the good of his own soul.
Do not be like the Pharaoh who put faith ONLY when it was too late and his faith could not avail him.
010.090 And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
010.091 What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers ?
010.092 But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents.
www.youtube.com...
Peace!
reply posted on 22-9-2008 @ 01:40 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by queenofangels_17
I did not say all Christians and Muslims, I said alot of them. As far as Muslims, I would point out the radical Islamic Movement. The 'believe in Allah or die, infidel!' type. I would not lump all Muslims in that group by any means. I would not lump all people of any group into a group with that mindset, but you can't deny that they are out there! Like I said in the same post, I just wish for a live and let live mentality. No one can prove beyond all doubt their faith, that's why it's called faith. But to assume that one's own faith is the only true faith is human arrogance on a large scale. I have my faith, but it is a dynamic journey that I am on, so it will not be the same tomorrow as it is today. Therefore for me to insist that mine is the only true one is ludicrious. I feel this applies to all individuals.
[edit on 22-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]
I did not say all Christians and Muslims, I said alot of them. As far as Muslims, I would point out the radical Islamic Movement. The 'believe in Allah or die, infidel!' type. I would not lump all Muslims in that group by any means. I would not lump all people of any group into a group with that mindset, but you can't deny that they are out there! Like I said in the same post, I just wish for a live and let live mentality. No one can prove beyond all doubt their faith, that's why it's called faith. But to assume that one's own faith is the only true faith is human arrogance on a large scale. I have my faith, but it is a dynamic journey that I am on, so it will not be the same tomorrow as it is today. Therefore for me to insist that mine is the only true one is ludicrious. I feel this applies to all individuals.
[edit on 22-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]
reply posted on 22-9-2008 @ 01:44 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by WiseSheep
Quoting religios reterict is really not helpful to the discussion. Maybe you should read the entire thread, before you just start regurgitating Dogma.
Quoting religios reterict is really not helpful to the discussion. Maybe you should read the entire thread, before you just start regurgitating Dogma.
reply posted on 22-9-2008 @ 04:23 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by WiseSheep
All of which is simply your opinion, based on your journey. For me, it was my starting point and I'm still discovering more everyday, but you won't ever see me insisting that mine is the only valid opinion. You do not seem to have the same self control to allow others to find their own way. The fact that you feel I need to be 'saved' is evidence of this.
[edit on 22-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]
All of which is simply your opinion, based on your journey. For me, it was my starting point and I'm still discovering more everyday, but you won't ever see me insisting that mine is the only valid opinion. You do not seem to have the same self control to allow others to find their own way. The fact that you feel I need to be 'saved' is evidence of this.
[edit on 22-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]
reply posted on 22-9-2008 @ 04:24 PM by JaxonRoberts
I just read this on Dave Rabbit's Is Religion Simply A Security Blanket? thread and
found it to be truly profound! I thought I would share it on the other spiritual threads I'm following.
I would encourage all to visit Dave's thread, but PLEASE follow the 'NO FLAMING!' rule!
Originally posted by plato63
The story, although originating in India, is almost certainly a Buddhist parable, attributed the man - Gautama Buddha himself. The story is of 6 blind men wandering upon an elephant, one finding the tail, another the ear, another the leg, etc. feel exited that they have seen something new (elephants were common in India then). They chance to meet up with a wise man (a non blind man) or the king and tell him the exiting news. However, they soon find that their individual descriptions do not match with the others, and therefore start fighting among themselves.
You certainly did get the moral of the story though (my respects). If GOD is so "huge", creator of the universe, beyond good or evil, beyond time, etc, how can we as mortals say that we "know" him. It is quite possible that we have touched only a part of HIM. If we accept that arguement then the only way in which we can "know" what GOD looks like is by amalgamating the information from all religions, and yes, even the athiests cause they may have touched a different part of HIM that the others did not. All roads lead to GOD (this idea is borrowed), but can only reach GOD once they have united and become one.
I would encourage all to visit Dave's thread, but PLEASE follow the 'NO FLAMING!' rule!
reply posted on 22-9-2008 @ 06:31 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by WiseSheep
Another possibility is that a few miles down the road he enters a desert, and the lifejacket is useless. My point is that if someone comes to you for your wisdom in matters concerning faith, knock yourself out. But to do so against that person's will is violating his personal freedom. One could also say that is violating someone's freewill, which you would say is given to us by God, so isn't that sinful?
[edit on 22-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]
Another possibility is that a few miles down the road he enters a desert, and the lifejacket is useless. My point is that if someone comes to you for your wisdom in matters concerning faith, knock yourself out. But to do so against that person's will is violating his personal freedom. One could also say that is violating someone's freewill, which you would say is given to us by God, so isn't that sinful?
[edit on 22-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]
reply posted on 22-9-2008 @ 08:48 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by WiseSheep
I am the OP, and the original question was whether you believe in Jesus' divinity, and if so, why. At the top of page two, I clarify why I asked the question in the first place. Getting all preachy was never a part of the thread. I am not attempting to convince people one way or another, and I am not interested in posts that are trying to do that. As far as the title of the thread, I'll have to admit that I just copied and pasted it from another thread, only changing the word existance to divinity, hence the misspelling of hearsay, which I didn't even notice until someone pointed it out. That should make things clear, I hope. Trying to convert me is utterly pointless, btw. You might as well try to convert a bowling ball. As I stated, Christianity was my starting point, and I have moved well past it.
I am the OP, and the original question was whether you believe in Jesus' divinity, and if so, why. At the top of page two, I clarify why I asked the question in the first place. Getting all preachy was never a part of the thread. I am not attempting to convince people one way or another, and I am not interested in posts that are trying to do that. As far as the title of the thread, I'll have to admit that I just copied and pasted it from another thread, only changing the word existance to divinity, hence the misspelling of hearsay, which I didn't even notice until someone pointed it out. That should make things clear, I hope. Trying to convert me is utterly pointless, btw. You might as well try to convert a bowling ball. As I stated, Christianity was my starting point, and I have moved well past it.
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