The Evidence in Jesus' Divinity is Nothing But Heresay.

There are threads debating the evidence of Jesus' existance, but what about the claim of his Divinity? I do not dispute that he existed, but do not believe in his 'Divinity'. What about you? Let the debate begin!

Oh my. This is one thread I don't think I'll be participating too much in. I pretty much said everything I could on this subject HERE. I don't think I'd be terribly interesting in reading about what non-Christians have to say on this subject but there are two Christian members of ATS who do not believe in the divinity of Christ. Hopefully they will come in and share their view. It would be nice to hear their arguments and beliefs on the topic. Don't think I'm personally up for another round on this subject but it will be nice to hear everyone else's views.

reply to post by AshleyD



Thanks for being the first to reply to it, though!

Depends on what you mean by divinity.
Most everyone has their own version of this word.
The classic definition is Godhead or deities.
You do not have to think only in terms of externals.
Divinity is a state of consciousness. That's Godhead.
My version is closer to the Eastern religions but can incorporate
Jesus. You can call it Jesus-consciousness.
In eastern religions you train your mind to reach this state of Divine consciousness-
you do meditation, contemplation, yogic practices and
their is evidence that Jesus had training in this regard.
Jesus was a great practitioner of contemplation that is not bound
by concepts. Jesus was truly open that allowed the divine consciousness to manifest spontaneously. Jesus had this capacity
which 99 per-cent of humans do not attempt to train in.

Divine consciousness is a phase change.
In other words it is like ice becoming water or water becoming steam.
and for example the properties and dimension of ice is more limited than water and steam. if you told ice what steam could do and ice never experienced it it would not believe it was capable.
Divine consciousness needs to experienced to be real.
The higher levels of Divine consciousness cannot be reached by
struggling with concepts. That's why one needs to do these practices
and learn from a master before one can realize divine consciousness.
Though people get a glimpse of this state when they achieve orgasm.
Divine consciousness is a state of mind where there is nonduality-in other words no seperation between subject and object and the divine
is not obscured by limited concepts. That's why meditation done correctly works-it is relaxing and opening the mind so that the energy of the universe vibrates within. And vibrate is the right word because often
primordial mantras are used so that one can resonate with the divine
vibration. It's all doable and western conditioning is there to inhibit you
and manipulate you into staying in a lower state of mental poverty or
a bondage to lower level ape-levels of group mind control. The Church allows you to rearrange flowers and light candles but it is paid off by the lower ape minds to keep you from realizing higher states because if you walked around in a perpetual state of divine orgasm you would not need to consume all the dross and crap that is being sold.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


The simple solution seens to be to say, "Yes".
Satisfied?
As evidence, you can look at 2 Peter 1:3-4
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So, we have two texts that use the word "divine" in a way that looks like it is talking about Jesus.

If you look at verse three, in Second Peter, one, and how it speaks of Christ's divinity, the Vulgate reads, "By His own (peculiar) glory and virtue"; being the explanation of "His divine power";

In verse four, it talks about believers partaking in that divinity. That has to be about not becoming Gods, ourselves, but taking bits of the virtue that Jesus has, as our own, by avoiding evil and doing good, as Jesus was an example of and as he commanded.

I'm not satisfied with Peter.
He's just expressing extreme admiration for his friend.
What if Jesus is not devine..would you b a differen person knowing this?
Would it change your life?
And if so, how?

reply to post by OhZone

The Christian religion is based on Christ, ergo the name. If you read the New testament you find an expectation of the Messiah who was also the Son of God. If Jesus presented himself as the Messiah and then said, "By the way, I have no divinity." he would have not had any following. Hopefully we are not so shallow and are a little more sophisticated. We would still have a set of minimum requirements of qualifications and that would start with absolute perfection.
John Lennon went to India and was staying at the Ashram and hanging out with the Maharishi and accepted him as his Guru, until he realized the guy was &^*%ing the girls who came there. That is just an example. If people are seeking holiness and purity, they are not going to tolerate a leader who is less than what you would wish to attain.
Another qualification would be that your Messiah would have to be able to exhibit divine powers. Miracle working does a good job of demonstrating divinity. The ultimate miracle would be to raise himself from the dead. When he was crucified, people said, "If you are the Son of God, why don't you take yourself down from the cross?" If they were serious followers, they would know that Jesus had made the claim that he had the ability to lay down his life and to take it back up. A pretty bold claim. If he really did not have that power but just claimed it, God would not give him the satisfaction of pulling off such a big lie, by raising him from the dead.


[edit on 20-9-2008 by jmdewey60]

OK, simple ground rules. You cannot use the Bible, which has a definite bias to prove Jesus' divinity. By that rationale, I could use ancient Greek texts to prove that Zues existed and was divine. Same with Allah, Krishna, Odin, Jupiter... you get the picture. Quoting scripture is not proof one way or another. If you tried to use the Bible as proof in Court, it would be thrown out as heresay as well, as we cannot question those that wrote it.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Why would anyone who does not believe in the Bible care about the divinity of Christ?
There is plenty of different interpretations of what Jesus was, within Christianity to create debate.
Non Christians obviously will think he was as divine as themselves.

Because in this country, the US, Christians (I don't mean all, but most) try to place their morals and values on the rest of the public through the government. Since this stance is based on their belief in his divinity, I would say that it is very relevant to everyone. As a specific example, Gays in this country are denied many rights because the religious masses concider it immoral to be gay, because the Bible says so, so therefore they don't deserve such protections under the law.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
You cannot use the Bible

Ok so you make reference to the canonized Bible.

Does that mean we cannot use any other source?

Ill start here to name a few...

The Apocalypse of Peter
The Apocalypse of Paul
The Aquarian Gospel of Christ
Christian Reincarnation: The Long Forgotten Doctrine
The Gospel of the Egyptians
The Gospel of Mary Magdalene.
The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary
The Gospel of Nicodemus
The Essene Gospel of Peace
The Gospel of The Perfect Life / Holy (12) Twelve
The Gospel of Philip
The Gospel of Thomas
The Gospel of Truth
The Lost Doctrines of Christianity
The Lost Gospel of Peter
The Lost Years of Jesus
The Treatise on the Resurrection

BTW...its Hearsay, and not Heresay.

How is it that one is not able to use eye witness testimony and inspired writings of the time? Is that not done today with the news.
What your proposing is that no man be believed and that no man can believe what another man tells him.

How does historical record fit into proof, modern day, or of yesteryear.
There were many rulers who saw fit to burn books to get rid of testimony and philosophy so that they might promote their own, and under the threat of heresy, banned the spread of controversial or adverse ideologies, which, like the earth being round, and the earth rotating around the sun, turned out to be true.

Have you some teaching that surpasses that of Jesus Christ in which you feel your message be heard?

Peace


[edit on 20-9-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Because all the texts you reference are not objective, but biased. I notice that you left out the rest of my post, as it clearly states why this is the case. The entire case for his divinity is based on faith alone. I used to have faith in Santa. This did not make him real. If it did, some fat, bearded old man would be breaking into your house once a year due to the faith that all the children have in him!

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Well, I don't see how it will be much of a debate. Neither side has anything but assumption to go on.
Where I stand:
I don't believe in God. The God portrayed in the Bible has many problems including a host of contradictions. Some in the text, some in translation errors, and some in the idea of an omnipotent God in the world we live in. Either way, even if you simply look at the translation errors, I could argue that as proof that the Bible in not the perfect word of God, as a perfect God would not allow his perfect word to be tainted. If it is tainted then either his word or he himself is not perfect and his words are therefor null and void. This is one reason why every single Christian has a different view of God, even if it only varies slightly - because the bases for their belief is not written as an absolute, but has many contradictions itself. With all that said, I take the Bible with little stock which means that I take claims in the Bible with little stock, including a Jesus and his divinity.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Because in this country, the US, Christians (I don't mean all, but most) try to place their morals and values on the rest of the public through the government.

Very true. This won't last for long though. Roughly 80% of Americans believe in God, however I predict that in 10 years time, that number will drop to 65%. This is due to more people making a choice different than their parents. We now teach evolution in more schools, and it is also not considered evil to question your faith, at least not as much as it once was. In 20 years time, I believe less than half the country will believe in God. When this happens, politicians will go from Christian to Agnostic, in favor of appealing open to all Gods. Either this or they will do the best they can to keep Christianity intact, as it seems to be one of their main crutches.

The crux of the issue is this. Fact: Evidence of Jesus' divinity is not always hearsay. However, what I am about to say also isn't going to be getting Jesus' divnity accepted by the scientific community any time soon.

Because faith is personal, the evidence of Jesus' divinity is also personal. Evidence of Jesus' Divinity on a wholesale, public, and evidence level may be considered hearsay (this is also debateable but again, I'm pretty burned out on this topic and would rather observe than argue). However, there are people who have encountered Jesus (and no, I am not talking about seeing Him on your morning toast lol). This makes Jesus' divinity real for that individual and definitely not hearsay.

So again, the scientific community won't be using that as proof anytime soon but there are eye witness accounts that exist today of people who have encountered Him on this side or the other side. So we have eye witnesses. This of course will lead us to the question of the reliability of the testimony of those eye witnesses. It's not historical, it's not scientific, but it is first hand testimony evidence.

[edit on 9/21/2008 by AshleyD]

Eloquently said! I loved the 'morning toast' comment, btw! You forgot the 'Virgin Mary on my tortilla' though!

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


One of my girlfriends actually got me something called 'Holy Toast' for Christmas. It is similar to a cookie cutter but you imprint it into your toast and it gives a perfect image of Jesus. Ah, novelties are fun. I must have a reputation for being a Bible thumper or something.

And just for the record: No, I DON'T use it! LOL! It was just a gag gift.

Originally posted by AshleyD
It is similar to a cookie cutter but you imprint it into your toast and it gives a perfect image of Jesus.

Except that no one knows what 'the perfect image of Jesus" is...no one knows what he looked like..possibly because he didn't exist, or maybe he did....

No, I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, but then I'm biased because I don't believe in god either...any of them!

.yes, I realise it was a 'gag'...

Evidence of Jesus' Divinity can be found in each and every person who seeks him.

Does a door open if you do not grab the handle?
Does a person answer, if their door is not knocked upon?

A word of advice, for those who seek him, from he himself:

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him

Like a thief in the night, he will come to you. When it happens, you will hard pressed to tell others. When Jesus Christ shows himself to you, a candle lit you will be. Is a candle lit, so that it might be hidden under a bed?

When people dislike you for your testimony of Jesus, remember what he warned us about in this matter:

If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own.

Jesus Christ

Peace

[edit on 21-9-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Because all the texts you reference are not objective, but biased. I notice that you left out the rest of my post, as it clearly states why this is the case. The entire case for his divinity is based on faith alone. I used to have faith in Santa. This did not make him real. If it did, some fat, bearded old man would be breaking into your house once a year due to the faith that all the children have in him!

Question: Are you really expecting to find an early secular source that supports Jesus' divinity? Wouldn't that, by the very definition, no longer make it secular?

There are historical secular sources from early Christianity that document the fact early Christians believed Jesus was divine. But it was only documentary- not a statement of faith.

Plain and simply, a non Christian is not going to say 'Jesus was Divine' and then not be a Christian, unless they are the biggest and most obstinate fool alive. It would stand to reason that only a Christian and only Christian sources are going to say such a thing. So I'm not quite sure what you're looking for from HifiGuy. If you are looking for an early secular or pagan source (what you would call 'unbiased') that confirms Jesus divinity, you will never find it because by that it would no longer be secular. The closest you will come to that is documentary evidence which does exist.

Hope that helps.