Frightening!!!!!! (Draft Bailout Bill)

Originally posted by bruxfain

I have lately been acting under the assumption that the banking magnates are Al qaeda. I always figured that our system has been infiltrated and if these bankers were acting on behalf of a foreign terrorist organization, its not like they'd admit it. But their actions support this idea.

What?
No. Its our greedy corporate world.

Hi There,

Illusionsaregrander:

If you think the rest of the world is going to get out of this unscathed think again.

I agree unequivocally. The centralising of finance mechanisms around the world took on something of a similar look many years ago. You can go into any country and you would see similar (if not the same) practices. This debacle is about 'centralisation', and making you (the taxpayer) pay for the priviledge of making the banking elite greater wealth, and them having control over your finances. No one it seems is going to be blamed or charged or made accountable for destroying financial lives of the ordinary citizen. We are all being laughed at and ridiculed in our desperation to live a simple life...y'know, where we grow up, get married, have children, get them the best education we can afford (as parents), and then hand the cycle over to them.

Ah, but no...this is not just what they want from us, they want our children as fodder for the bogus battlefields they manufacture, because wars make them rich. Of course we can't expect them to make any sacrifice, we can't expect any of them to surrender their sons or daughters to the battlefield, how impudent we must be to expect this. Just to make sure we all act like Job and offer our off-spring up to the elite's god of avarice and greed, they mention (in passing of course) how patriotic it is to do so...where is their patritotism? Where is their shared desperation? Where is their struggle to make ends meet? I must be blind, because I cannot see it over the trough in which their noses are buried ear deep.

Of course, my own country fares not much better. We too have a government that is in meltdown, the people's boot primed and ready to kick them into a golden gutter ('golden' because they'll walk away from this richer than when they started with total impunity). I don't work to live a life, I work simply to survive month to month, I'm living in a prison where freedom allows me to be servient to my dependence on others in far better positions (socio-economically) than I. In essence, I'm just a small cog in a very large machine mincing people up to use as cement for a infrastructure built on principles antithetical to the aims of a fair and equal society. The whole thing is obscene, and it needs tearing down and rebuilding to more ethical and moral ideals.

These bailouts of these gargantuan institutions are not for plastering up the cracks of a society crumbling, but to safeguard the money of the rich that would be lost. You're paying for the priviledge of bailing out those that created this fiasco in the first place. $85 billion dollars has just bought the taxpayer a whole lot of worthless nothing. Central banks around the world have pumped into the financial markets billions just to keep the stock market shops open...not repair them, but to keep the problem going. This is the legacy yours and my children will inherit, and I do not for one minute think it to be fine and dandy.

AIG should not have been bailed out. We had a chance to accept short-term pain, but instead have been given long-term pain. As Paul has stated, all we've received is a quick fix, another one will be required when this wears off, and another one after that, ad nauseum. The markets will shudder along pendulating from extreme highs to extreme lows, until the house finally crumbles from all the shaking. It is inevitable! Hence the new financial regulation with its $700 billion syringe to inject quick fixes paid for by you the taxpayer. Just remember, the rich are not affected by all this. Apart from a few exceptions (scapegoats), most will actually make money from it...taxpayer money.

"Oh dear, run your company into the ground...here's a couple o'billion for your nest egg!"
"No no, you don't have to pay it back, the taxpayer will do that, and there's also all the repossessions...it's their fault for gambling on a mortgage with you!"
"What they gonna do...rebel?" Nah! they're too chicken-# for that!" And you can take that to the bank.

To an extent you are right about the banksters being Al Qaeida,

Just not in the way you think.

This bailout and the looming guillotine it creates present a fait accomplii that allows even rational people to consider the idea that such a radical shift of policy is necessary or prudent.

However the factors leading up to this crisis point have been literally DECADES in the making and up until 2001 were more or less reversible. (I'm referring to the internet bubble not 9/11 and psst where'd that money from the bubble go? answer that and you see who is behind this)

Some of us after reading a manual that was never meant to reach civilian eyes that can be found by googling Silent Weapons For Quiet Wars began to look backwards not forwards to try to make sense of the world. In SWFQW there is a detailed description of what is termed "economic shock testing". When one takes the concept of economic shock testing and compares it against the S&L scandal that killed the major accounting blocs that were supposed to insulate from fraud on a systemic level in the 80's you see a shock test which also allowed regulations to be changed into the basic form that essentially allowed THIS crisis to happen.

There are other incidents and statistical blips that become apparent as shock testing. But that's beside the point you wanted to know if the banks are ran by AQ...

THe short answer is Nope but they are ran by the people who control AQ. And for the most part they can insure compliance by the simple expedient of controlling the cash flow that makes it to the action arms of these organizations. That sort of leaves the usual suspects in the banking world as the only reasonable suspect does it not? Add into that massive financial irregularities around 9/11 a missing 2 trillion dollars from gov funds and some other things and the world starts looking a whole lot less random.

I am sooooo trippin about all of this and that the Feds are bailing out these corporations. Why should the fed bail out rich people with tax payer money that the gov doesn't have in the first place. If they had money, why does the USA have such a huge deficit?

It appears it is a scam to not allow the rich to become poor like the rest of us.

Those companies gambled and took risks and failed now they need to pay the price. If the average Joe Blow does not pay for his car, it gets repossessed and Joe is still responsible for a sum of money plus gets bad credit for 7 years.

I can't believe we the American people are allowing this. However, my understanding is that is legal.

We the people need to start writing our elected reps and start reading all newly proposed federal and local proposed legislation.

Isn't odd how many sheeple don't think this is a big deal.

Well as someone who is not American, there's not a lot I can do, perhaps except crap my pants.

What I have done is sent a link to the analysis to all of my friends who are American. It's all I can do.

My country has it's own share of problems but at least we can still protest on parliament hill, and we can still sue the damn govenment without their permission. How long that will last ? Who knows ?

Guess that depends on who wins our election in October, and if the little George W wanna be gets back into power, this time with a majority government.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by RealMckoy]

CURRENT CONCERN:

I just read a news article about the Bill that says it's 3 pages long. I don't think our version is.

They have had this in their hands for 24 hours, and we need an update. We need to see what else is being pushed into it and if any of the "offensive" unconstitutional language has been changed.

I am so frustrated we cannot get first hand access to this now. I am glad the original draft somehow got leaked to the media, but now I am afraid we aren't going to see anything further till it's passed. I wonder if any of our Representatives are taking note of the sentiment against violating our Constitution (which is totally unnecesarry) to accomplish their goals.

*holds breath*

POLITICO.com: Foreign banks may get help

www.politico.com...

In a change from the original proposal sent to Capitol Hill, foreign-based banks with big U.S. operations could qualify for the Treasury Department’s mortgage bailout, according to the fine print of an administration statement Saturday night.

The theory, according to a participant in the negotiations, is that if the goal is to solve a liquidity crisis, it makes no sense to exclude banks that do a lot of lending in the United States.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson confirmed the change on ABC's "This Week," telling George Stephanopoulos that coverage of foreign-based banks is "a distinction without a difference to the American people."

"If a financial institution has business operations in the United States, hires people in the United States, if they are clogged with illiquid assets, they have the same impact on the American people as any other institution," Paulson said.

I really can't express my feelings about this and remain within the T&C's. I just can't describe it without profanity. Congress, the Fed, Paulson, and Bush have led us into the worst case scenario. Congress, as we speak is basically debating monetizing the entirity of the bad debt for the banefit of Wall Street to the detriment of main street. There is not a single person convicted or even charged with the fraud that will affect this country for generations. These Banksters and their bought and paid for CONgress have done more damage to the long term economic health of this country in the past few years and with the never ending streams of bailouts than any terrorist or hostile foreign government could ever do.

Every congressperson who votes for this and is an Incumbent should be shown the door in their next election. I don't see a single thing that would help anyone but a Wall Street type in this new bailout (it's really monetization of the debt).

Eventually those that finance our govt. (by buying treasuries) will say no more cheap debt and the .gov's cost to finance itself will balloon. When people started to realize how bad things were, the .gov should have let things fall where they may and protected itself and it's abillity to continue to fund itself. Instead they've chosen to monetize all this bad paper, and make no mistake things will still fall but they are quite likely to take the government with them when they do.

Originally posted by DancedWithWolves
reply to post by antar

 

Finally, a counter-proposal begins to emerge.....Thank you.

Not to be a pain or anything but as to the MSM crisis spin and the current proposal on the table i have to ask.......REALLY?

I'm assuming most American have a mortgage which they will now all owe the government. You bought a bigger, better house than you could afford betting that you would have more tomorrow than you did today. I didn't.

I'm assuming most Americans have loans for toys they bought they couldn't pay for at the time. I don't.

I'm assuming you have banked on tomorrow to pay for today. I didn't.

I'm assuming you put your money in a market hoping to make more from the people who lost in the market that day. There is no new money. You gambled that someone would lose that day so that you could win.

Now you want us that didn't overextend to take on the bad debt? Let the big businesses fail. If you don't think we should do this proposal...then give Gools verbage he can copy and paste that would solve this problem. Offer a counter proposal solution that doesn't put my children and grandchildren on the hook for bad debts we never incurred.

My family, for generations now, has preserved what little we had and made due. Basically we didn't buy eggs...we bought chickens to make our own eggs. We don't spend more than we have.

Let the banks fail or offer a better solution. If you are going to write outraged letters....send a new proposal along that ends this madness. Instead of tearing up the copy of the proposal on the table....let's use posts to write a new one and send that because the one on the table now is WRONG and believe me, they ARE going to pass something this week.

How about mandating within the proposal that all profits made by these banks would also be nationalized along with this debt. Take the assets with the debts or let them fail.

It makes me sick that my children are getting saddled with debt they didn't get any benefit from. We have got to seize the assets along with the debt or no deal.

Let em fail. I feel like I have been an unknowing player in the game of monopoly and ended up in jail while the monopolies got dealt all the get out of jail free cards under the table.

Disgusted.

Sorry for the rant....but....REALLY?

Let's come up with a better solution.....the minds are here.....
If we don't like what is on the table then offer an alternative. All the MSM is talking about is tweaking what is being proposed.

Well good for you. It seems like you withdrew from the system. Hopefully you didn't stop fighting for what you believe in at the same time, because apathy is why we are here in the first place. It doesn't mean that you won't get caught up in this as well when everything economically just stops.

As to a plan, I have a plan that costs taxpayers nothing. It may result in more failures for financials, but they will only get what they deserve. It will also tick off folks like you because it does provide charity for those who may not have planned as well as you or actually believed things would get better enough to handle their obligations (Isn't that what these loans were premised on by the lenders as well?). It is really simple:

Goverment buys the bad and likely to go bad mortgages for some discount of fair value. It then turns around and renegotiates with the troubled homeowner, putting them in a new mortgage for some amount higher than the goverment paid. These mortgages will now be solid and can then be resold to the market at a profit to the goverment. You can even attach some of the future appreciation to provide more money for the goverment and /or the original lenders.

Everyone wins in this scenario. Banks have a venue to sell their troubled loans. Some might not have enough equity left and will go bankrupt. That is ok in my book. The responsible banks will flourish. The goverment makes money and keeps the economic system sound, in turn restoring faith in the dollar and the USA economy. The troubled homeowners benefit by keeping their homes. Other homeowners benefit from not having the price of their house continue to plummet.

The only people that would lose are the vulture investors who are lining up to buy these loans at a discount to fair value after the goverment pays mor ethan fair value. We cannot allow them to benefit from this.

reply to post by disgustedbyhumanity


Your plan sounds sane DBH, hence it would never work. Instead they'd rather continue to reward those who were well rewarded during the "bubble" while holding no one accountable for this mess except the taxpayer. Oh, and also it seems like part of this monetization of debt ( I can't call it a bailout anymore that's too simple of a term) is to benefit foreign interests so that they continue to buy treasuries.

The whole friggin' situation is criminal if not treasonous.

Don't know if this has already been brought to the table, yet it appears this bailout and its fine print could also include foreign banks as well...

news.yahoo.com...

The theory, according to a participant in the negotiations, is that if the goal is to solve a liquidity crisis, it makes no sense to exclude banks that do a lot of lending in the United States.

More advancement for the NWO?

"If a financial institution has business operations in the United States, hires people in the United States, if they are clogged with illiquid assets, they have the same impact on the American people as any other institution," Paulson said.

Could this be one of the factors in outsourcing American business in the past 8 years? They knew that they would get their due in time?

"That's a distinction without a difference to the American people. The key here is protecting the system. ... We have a global financial system, and we are talking very aggressively with other countries around the world and encouraging them to do similar things, and I believe a number of them will. But, remember, this is about protecting the American people and protecting the taxpayers. and the American people don't care who owns the financial institution. If the financial institution in this country has problems, it'll have the same impact whether it's the U.S. or foreign."

I Cannot believe the last statement, the propaganda about how the US citizens "do not care who owns the loans", where did they get those statistics or do they just presume to 'know' what the American public thinks?

With the right poll question you can point to a statistic saying anything you need it to. Referemce the poll purportedly about assault rifles... the question was do you favor banning automatic weaponss/ the pollsters said 70% of americans favor a new assault weapons ban...

capitalizing on blind spots in common knowledge can allow support for ANYTHING to seem wide spread.

Originally posted by pavilIf we don't let the government take on the burden of these horrible loans, more and more financial and Big Business institutions will fail. That alternative is bleaker than having the Government basically "eat" a good portion of these loans. It's not a good situation either way you look at it, you have to take the course of action that will do less damage to the economy.

Well Pavil, if we stick all the losses onto the Federal Government then it will go broke, and all the citizens will go broke BECAUSE every time the Government asks to print up more Billions of dollars it has to ask the FED to print that money, which is paid for at 6% interest to the FED which is a Rothschild Banking unit. Furthermore the value of every Dollar on the streets gets DEVALUED because the more dollars you have, the less they are worth in comparison to other standards of currency.

Business Pavil, is not a guarantee to make money, it is a possibility to make money, you are not guaranteed a profit because you make bad decisions, you are guaranteed to go out of business if you make bad decisions. That is a part of the basis of a FREE MARKET. Now while it may seem that if the Financial Sector has a few big companies go under it will be the end of the world, I assure you it will not. Yes, a few thousand people primarily in New York City will be unemployed, and yes a few hundred people in the Hamptons may not be able to buy that new Yacht this year, but there will be recovery in that sector. Let them fall, let them take the responsibility of their actions, let them pay for their greed.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by 2stepsfromtop]

ALMOST ARMAGEDDON
MARKETS WERE 500 TRADES FROM A MELTDOWN

www.nypost.com...

The market was 500 trades away from Armageddon on Thursday, traders inside two large custodial banks tell The Post.

Had the Treasury and Fed not quickly stepped into the fray that morning with a quick $105 billion injection of liquidity, the Dow could have collapsed to the 8,300-level - a 22 percent decline! - while the clang of the opening bell was still echoing around the cavernous exchange floor.

www.nypost.com... .htm

Without commercial paper, "factories would have to shut down, people would lose their jobs and there would be an effect on the real economy," Paul Schott Stevens, of the Investment Company Institute, told the Wall Street Journal.

Banks, which usually keep an average of $2 billion in excess reserves earmarked for withdrawals, pumped that up to an astounding $90 billion by Wednesday, Lou Crandall, chief economist at Wrighton ICAP, told The Journal.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by shermanium]

So a bill that allows the Sec of the Treasury (appointed by the President, with passive approval of Congress) in charge of which companies continue next week on the live action Survivor: Wall St. edition? Great give me some more of that.

It is also worthy to note that Bernake (which is really only a few letters away from a "term" that should be censored that is vugarlly refere to as a "facial") studied so passionately about the Great Depression since he will be helming this mess when we make that look a picnic. Maybe his failure to contain will be enough for him to shoot himself saving some patriot a bullet for someone else. Which brings me to the next point..

In these trying times we should secure ourselves, both person and property, from those that wish to benefit from our own sweat and hard labor by bolsetering (or starting to use) our Second Amendment right to keep an bare arms against enemies foreign or domestic to ensure the security and freedom of our state. So let's go shopping for a gun on the cheap....

Local Mom & Pop store, nope. Been gone ever since that Wal-Mart came into the area.

Wal-Mart, nope. Haven't sold rifles nor shotguns for a few years now.

K-Mart, nope. Same as Wal-Mart

Target, nope. Never did.

Kohl's, Uh yeah, right...

Sears, "We only have that free exchange on the Craftman Pro series now...and the few hand tools still made in America that are gathering dust...Gun's? Have you tried Wal-Mart?"

Pro Bass Shop (after a longer drive than it should have been) Yes, just fill out all these forms and wait for the FBI check (and registraition so we know what you have and where it is) to complete.

Of course there alternatives to that shopping trip...explaination is best left for another time when need exceeds proper channels for possession.

Originally posted by kosmicjack
This is bad. Real bad. I am speechless.

I'm worried about Monday. Any ideas of what to expect?

I have no Idea ?? Will the Dow suffer like it did last week ??

Anyone wants to make predictions ?

reply to post by bruxfain


This is not what we wanted. This is like a change in the completely wrong direction. I was all for LESS government intervention...this is the opposite. They want to start buying up the market in whole. That's kind of scary.

Originally posted by Grinder

Anyone wants to make predictions ?

Government teat being brought out to the smacking gobs of Wall St.? They will suck that baby dry and cry for more, no doubt. I see a huge rise not just Monday but for the rest of the week, unless the bill is shot down or the Gov't just absorbs the debts for pennies on the dollar and then dismisses them instead of reissue as backed security instruments much like we have done with all foreign debt.

If that were to happen it would protect the taxpayer and foster temporary growth by those that hope more irresponsible behavior would be rewarded the same way. Bush goes into the books as a living god for saving millions of homeowner's houses and diverts the meltdown to someone else's plate.

Debt Amnesty for the win-win for Bush, pass this bill and the Democratic controlled Congress gets to look like heartless saps if they resist in any way, shape or form. So a win-win-win...are not magic wands cool like that?

As for this next week in the stock market, I feel uncomfortable with saying that I have no clue what will happen, but that is the case. I was optimistic as anything on wednesday. I was telling people how the Fed made the right choice by bailing AIG out, but so much has changed since then and my optimism has been sucked dry.

I've gone from optimistic to unable to even know what to expect. I don't see how this situation can be avoided or be considered a win. It is a lose lose situation. If the bill passes, we have government with new power that it has never had before. The power to buy out pretty much anyone, bank or other. The kind of numbers we are talking in dollars here is stupifying. 700 billion AT A TIME. I cannot begin to imagine how much will be spent by the end.

I worry for the dollars value should this bill get passed.

If this bill doesn't get passed...well you all already know what will happen to the market. It only stayed afloat these past two days because of this bill. If it fails, so will the market.