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Police arrest UK woman for "offensive" child's toy in window

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posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 08:39 AM
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reply to post by Sonya610
 


You are beyond help....

They this, they that.....you have an us and them mentality.


Maybe if we (the white man) hadn't kidnapped and enslaved these poor human beings to help build our great nations (UK,US)... they would be at home in their own country/homelands as you put it.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case is it.

Why don't you read a book or something, as the only other sensible person still writing has suggested, go EDUCATE yourself.... try walking a mile or watching a few docs or chatting to people about their fears and whatever... instead of saying because YOU don't find it offensive than how can anyone else....?





posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 09:16 AM
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This story made me laugh, So its not ok to have a gollywog doll has its deemed racist but its ok for the complaining person have there rights upheld and have the person arrested for owning a gollywog doll, what about the rights of the woman to own a gollywog doll.

Same old double standards its ok for black person to call another black person N***r but the moment a white person uses the word its not ok which is racist int its self, its saying you cant use that word because your white which is the same as saying you cant sit at the front of the bus go sit at the back

Time for all of the people that use the racism card to take that huge chip of there shoulder and start to live free because if there gonna keep looking for racism in everything there only oppressing them selves



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by u4ria
 



Why would someone want to own a golly??

Why would you want to use the N-word... because you can't?
Because it's controversial?


Oh how hard done by you are, you can't say N****r and display your golly doll.
This is an outrage



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
Lol, i'm starting to think that you really have no idea....or you are actually just trying to be racist?

You have lost me.....

You asked what was offensive about these dolls.... i am showing you that they are as offensive as ANY RACIAL STEREOTYPING!!!


I don't "try" to be anything. : )

And you still have not explained what is offensive about these dolls. Depicting common features of other races? Is that offensive? And if so, why?

The dolls show obvious black features smiling and being happy. They are obviously loved by children. Please, again, explain how this is wrong? Is being from Africa and having African features wrong?



[edit on 21-9-2008 by Sonya610]



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by Sonya610
 


So as you're not trying, you just ARE then?

As i said, if i need to explain it to you, then there is no point?

You either get it or you don't.... it's not something i can just say blah blah, and you say "oh wow, i get it now...all the years of racial abuse, segregation and hurt that we inflicted on this race for our own benefit is actually wrong and they may not want to be reminded that they were once thought of (still are it seems) as second or third class citizens or animals and laughed at in the most disgusting way".


A few years back, i had a temp job where i was scanning documents onto cd's for a music company, so they didn't need to keep all these massive music books in storage.

I cannot mention which company, but let's say they are one of the biggest.
Anyway, i had to scan every page of these 2-300 page books into the computer and some of the material was highly racist and highly offensive.

Song titles like "little C**n" and "watermelon lips" and some that are too disgusting to list.
I was horrified and just couldn't believe that a mojor music label actaully carried stuff like this, it was all from the 20's 30's 40's etc but it just blew my mind.

Then you've got disney, and other companies who also dealt with racist topics, but at the time, nobody cared, or nobody spoke up for the minorities...I'm glad times have changed somewhat but dumbfounded that supposed intelligent people on this site are acting so ignorantly and come across as if they have no idea that people find racist figures or pictures or whatever racist?


just you saying your "common characteristics" statement IS RACIST.... but unfortunately you cannot see that, so i believe i am wasting my time, but i will try and help you, nobody is a lost cause.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by u4ria
 


There are not enough facts known about the incident so we are all guessing. With this in mind...

It is legal to buy and sell the offending item.

It is not legal to use the offending item in order cause offense.

In very much the same way as a tee shirt is legal but if you walked through the streets in a tshirt with the N-word smashed across the front of it you can expect to be arrested (assuming you havent been lynched already!) if a complaint is made and you refuse to coverup or remove the offending slogan.

It is worth noting that it is not illegal to wear a t-shirt with the N-word smashed all over it. It becomes an offense if a complaint by a member of the public is upheld. If a policeman sees you wearing it and no complaint has been made by the public he is able to arrest you as he can assert his position as the person making the complaint.

Moving on...

We do not know if the person intended to cause offense but what is known is that the person was asked to come to the police station where she was arrested.

The woman would only have been asked to attend the police station had she not complied with a request to remove the offending item from public sight or the police had reason to believe that there was malicious intent.

To be honest, it is well known in the UK that the the offending item is deemed offensive. That being the case, either the woman is completely ignorant or completely stupid to be sticking it in her window for public consumption.

Likewise, I doubt anyone on this forum who now knows that the doll is a highly offensive symbol in UK culture, would be stupid/ignorant enough to believe that the woman stuck the doll in her window because she wanted to make the world a better place.

Either way, she won't be making that mistake again.

[edit on 21/9/2008 by skibtz]



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by Sonya610I don't "try" to be anything. : )


Well how about you try being a little less racist-sounding and a little more compassionate to the feelings of others.


The dolls show obvious black features smiling and being happy. They are obviously loved by children. Please, again, explain how this is wrong? Is being from Africa and having African features wrong?




The people who are offended are English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, American, French, German.....ah feck it....pick a nationality.

You are really hung up on the Africa element. Why is that?

Black people are not necessarily African.

Again. Another post reeking of racism.

Are you trying get stars and flags?

you'll notice that you do not have many. Do you know why?

It is because most people find the content of your posts depressing and ignorant.

Please come back and tell me why it may be that black people are not necessarily African.

If you can do that then I then I will give you a star



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup

If you don't "get it"..... i'm afraid i cannot help you


I mentioned racial caricatures of Jews in my first post in this thread and how and why they're not similar in any way.

As you "don't get it", I will at least try and explain it to you. The racial caricatures used by Nazis et al as figures of hatred; the stereotype was depicted as being repugnant and evil &c.

Yet a golly, particular in soft-doll format, is something that is seen affectionately. It's a doll: hugged with, played with and probably kept with all the other toys. If the gollytoy was seen in the same way as Nazis characterised Jews, do you honestly think people would be giving them to children to play with? What you do think goes one behind a child's bedroom room? Afternoon games of 'the lynching tree'? Do people buy these so adults and children alike can pour scorn on them? If this characterisation was of something so despised and hated, why would anyone want them as a keyring? To remind them to hate blacks?

Your analogy makes little sense.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by Merriman WeirAs you "don't get it", I will at least try and explain it to you. The racial caricatures used by Nazis et al as figures of hatred; the stereotype was depicted as being repugnant and evil &c.


I am having trouble getting your 'jew toys = bad / black toys = good' argument.

Any confusion has been self-orchestrated on your part im afraid.


Yet a golly, particular in soft-doll format, is something that is seen affectionately. It's a doll: hugged with, played with and probably kept with all the other toys. If the gollytoy was seen in the same way as Nazis characterised Jews, do you honestly think people would be giving them to children to play with? What you do think goes one behind a child's bedroom room? Afternoon games of 'the lynching tree'? Do people buy these so adults and children alike can pour scorn on them? If this characterisation was of something so despised and hated, why would anyone want them as a keyring? To remind them to hate blacks?


Toys are fantastic tools for programming a child's mind with ideas and thinking patterns. So yes, a soft, cuddly toy, given to a child in order to reinforce the thinking of that time, that black people were bought and owned, is not that far fetched.


Your analogy makes little sense.


As does your inconsistent argument.

Black people, as well as Jewish people, have feelings too.

And you are forgetting one major point. The item in question has massive racial undertones. That can not be denied.

Someone was offended by it.

It is not your place to say whether or not that person can be offended or not.

It is their right and they acted upon it.

You seem to think that if you think that it is ok then everyone else must accept it.

The sooner you accept that there are values and ideas that differ to yours the better.

Could please provide some links to the Jewish items that you speak of please.

[edit on 21/9/2008 by skibtz]



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 11:20 AM
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Wow, interesting thread. I have to agree that it's ridiculous that this lady was arrested over this. Although maybe ryanlv has a point. Who knows, it could have escalated into something worse if the police hadn't stepped in. Shame that this is the world we live in...

---


Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by blupblup
If someone is upset over racist crap that's on view for people to see.... i don't say that's "nothing"...?


What defines "racist crap". I am offended by lots of things, but that does not mean I expect the people to be arrested. For instance here there are numerous Black Organizations that publically and openly claim to be specifically for the benefit of Black people only.

Does that offend me? Well it certainly annoys me, especially because as a white person if I dared start such an organization and put "white" in the name it would be labeled a "hate group".

If those black organizations really make me feel bad about my race perhaps they need to stop their public messages immediately or risk criminal prosecution for aggravating racial tension and offending people that are excluded because of their race.

Fair is fair.

[edit on 20-9-2008 by Sonya610]


Um... yeah I kinda have something to say about this too


See, the reason there are black organisations and services is because the organisations and services already in existence before the black ones and also the ones now, were and are mainly by white people and for white people. The white organisations and services don't really cater to black people and their needs. Black people and other minority groups have different needs because they were oppressed and discriminated against for so long. So that's why there are specific groups for specific people.

See with organisations and services specifically for them, they're more able to get what they need, without being discriminated against. And the services like health, are more suited to what they need and making sure they get it and it's also a community thing. It helps to bring people together and build better communities that are more effective in looking after themselves and each other.

Unfortunately, even today in the 21st century, racism still exists, though it's rarely acknowledged in the mainstream. And when it is, it's most often resented and doesn't get that much attention and the people who say there is racism, are made to look like they're making a big deal out of nothing. My guess is because people think that because we're in the 21st century, things are different now, it was all in the past and there should be no more or hardly any problems now, because we already dealt with it, so no one should have anything to complain about. But there are still problems and issues that haven't been resolved that will probably take awhile to deal with and that can't be ignored. Especially if we are to become a global family and just wear the label "human" instead of the name of a country, race etc. you know?

That's why there are black groups and organisations, because there is still racism in the ones that are supposed to be for everyone, for all the citizens of a country or whatever. People don't get the help they need because they get discriminated against, so they have their own groups, organisations and services etc. to look after them.

That's how it is in Australia. There are Aboriginal services for Aboriginal people and it's good, because we're more likely to get the services we need. And like I said before, it's a community thing. I believe it builds better communities and helps us to look out for one another to make sure we have and get what we know we need, not what the government thinks we need lol.

Hope this helps and I hope this makes sense lol



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 11:32 AM
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Double-post.

Rorry!

[edit on 21/9/2008 by skibtz]



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by Merriman Weir What confuses the issue of the gollytoy*


Oh please. if you are going to stick up for the golliwog then please grow some balls and do it justice and refer to it properly.

Stop hiding behind 'golly' and 'gollytoy'.

It is a golliwog.

You see?

It is such a vulgar term in UK culture you have to hide it away!

Shame on you.


There's a lot of confusion about Enid Blyton's gollies too, which have also received a lot of flak over the recent decades.


Here is a quote from one of her books:

"Once the three bold Golliwogs, Golly, Woggie, and N-word, decided to go for a walk to Bumble-Bee Common. Golly wasn't quite ready so Woggie and N-word said they would start off without him, and Golly would catch them up as soon as he could. So off went Woggie and N-word, arm-in-arm, singing merrily their favourite song - which, as you may guess, was Ten Little N-word Boys."

And just so you know, the song 'Ten Little N-word Boys' is a song that celebrates the death of ten black children, one-by-one.

Please Merriman Weir, where is the confusion you speak of?

In the 1960's, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders British army regiment, wore a Robertson's golly brooch for each Arab they killed.

How nice. I must login to Ebay and get myself one!!!!!!



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by Sparkly_Eyed777
 


Well spoken my friend.




posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 11:56 AM
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I own a doll of a white man...RACIST...oh wait no, it's a toy...never mind.

I own 'action man' figures that are both black and white. They are no more racist than these golliwog dolls. It is only he way in which they are used that can make them racist.

Playing with a golliwog doll, having a tea party with it along with your bears and rabbit dolls....oh no, how racist of the little child.

And adult deliberately jumping about on a golliwog doll, yes that is racist. Not the doll, the way in which it is being used.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by umbr45
 


The golliwog has a history steeped in racism and I don't think that Action Man can claim the same legacy.

You do have a valid point though.

Maybe if the owner had been more considerate in her use of the doll then she would not have evoked a complaint from an offended member of the public, thereby avoiding police intervention.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by umbr45
 


Problem is, they are guilty by association. These dolls were around when people used the N word to refer to black people. And now it isn't acceptable to use that word because of the meanings behind it, but what about the dolls? There are certain meanings and associations with these dolls that are like using the N word. Meanings and associations that aren't easily forgotten.

For anyone wondering why there are problems with Golliwog dolls, read this article (which I think skibtz referred to?)

www.golliwogg.co.uk...

Here is an excerpt:

The claim that Golliwogs are racist is supported by literary depictions by writers such as Enid Blyton. Unlike Florence Upton's, Blyton's Golliwogs were often rude, mischievous, elfin villains. In Blyton's book, "Here Comes Noddy Again", a Golliwog asks the hero for help, then steals his car. Blyton, one of the most prolific European writers, included the Golliwogs in many stories, but she only wrote three books primarily about Golliwogs: The Three Golliwogs (1944), The Proud Golliwog (1951), and The Golliwog Grumbled (1953). Her depictions of Golliwogs are, by contemporary standards, racially insensitive. An excerpt from The Three Golliwogs is illustrative:

Once the three bold Golliwogs, Golly, Woggie, and Nigger, decided to go for a walk to Bumble-Bee Common. Golly wasn't quite ready so Woggie and Nigger said they would start off without him, and Golly would catch them up as soon as he could. So off went Woggie and Nigger, arm-in-arm, singing merrily their favourite song - which, as you may guess, was Ten Little Nigger Boys.

Ten Little Niggers is the name of a children's poem, sometimes set to music, which celebrates the deaths of ten Black children, one-by-one. The Three Golliwogs was reprinted as recently as 1968, and it still contained the above passage. Ten Little Niggers was also the name of a 1939 Agatha Christie novel, whose cover showed a Golliwog lynched, hanging from a noose.

The Golliwog's reputation and popularity were also hurt by the association with the word wog. Apparently derived from the word Golliwog, wog is an English slur against dark-skinned people, especially Middle or Far East foreigners. During World War II the word wog was used by the British Army in North Africa, mainly as a slur against dark-skinned Arabs. In the 1960s the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, one of the most noted regiments in the British Army, wore a Robertson's golly brooch for each Arab they had killed. After the war, wog became a more general slur against brown-skinned people. As a racial epithet, it is comparable to 'n-word' or spic, though its usage extends beyond any single ethnic group. Dark-skinned people in England, Germany, and Australia are derisively called wogs. In the year 2000, a British police officer was fired for referring to an Asian colleague as a wog. The association of wog with racial minorities is also seen with the word wog-box, which is slang for a large portable music box, the European counterpart of the ghetto blaster. The wog-box is also called a "Third World briefcase."


I guess if you own a Golliwog doll, it just requires a bit of sensitivity to people who might be offended by them. And to make sure they aren't used in ways which could be seen as overly offensive or lacking in consideration.


and yeah, what skibtz said
...



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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This is silly had the woman been black it wouldnt even have been as issue. You cant assume the woman was a racist because she had a doll. People will allways get offended and they have the right but they dont have the right to decide what other people have display ect. I could be offended by fuzzy dice you have in your car your promoting gambling but that doesnt mean i should take my beliefs and apply them to you.
The problem with being politically correct is any one kind find something offensive but if you allow that to run your society you are loosing your rights and liberties. Reality you dont know why the person is buying the doll and you cant assume to know. If one of her neighbors were upset sounds like to me they have issues of racism they have not dealt with.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by dragonridr
This is silly had the woman been black it wouldnt even have been as issue. You cant assume the woman was a racist because she had a doll.


Had the woman been black I doubt very much the doll would have been purchased in the first place.


People will allways get offended and they have the right but they dont have the right to decide what other people have display ect


Yes we do. We vote. We then get what the majority voted for.

Fortunately, the majority find these dolls repulsive and have allowed the government to put in place laws that deal with complaints relating to the dolls.


I could be offended by fuzzy dice you have in your car your promoting gambling but that doesnt mean i should take my beliefs and apply them to you.


No, but if you feel passionate about it and truly believe in yourself then you will oppose the use of them.


The problem with being politically correct is any one kind find something offensive but if you allow that to run your society you are loosing your rights and liberties.


The problem with people who oppose political correctness is that they seem to have forgotten who voted in the government who apply the politics.

Power to the people my friend. If you dont like it then build yourself a spaceship



Reality you dont know why the person is buying the doll and you cant assume to know.


This is true, however, UK culture dictates that the golliwog is a racist symbol. If you buy one and stick it in the window for all to see then expect the public to respond.


If one of her neighbors were upset sounds like to me they have issues of racism they have not dealt with.


Racism, and the effects of, do not just go away and can be very difficult, and in some instances, impossible to deal with.

The fact that you do not sympathise says it all really.

A free world should not mean that you are free to abuse people.

There are boundaries that must be governed.

Peace.

[edit on 21/9/2008 by skibtz]



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by skibtz
I am having trouble getting your 'jew toys = bad / black toys = good' argument.

Any confusion has been self-orchestrated on your part im afraid.


Woah! Where are these jew dolls that alleged racists apparently give to their children to affectionately play with or see in the same paradigm as their other toys? I've never said they exist! That they don't is part of the point I'm making.

I've never said that 'jew toys = bad / black toys = good' or even suggested it! Again, as you seem to misunderstand why the comparison doesn't hold. Nazis used propaganda to create hate figures. Manufacturers manage to sell gollys because people actually like them. Unless, of course, you are under some bizarre delusion that people buy these toys in order to mistreat them, burn them or hold mock lynchings.



Toys are fantastic tools for programming a child's mind with ideas and thinking patterns. So yes, a soft, cuddly toy, given to a child in order to reinforce the thinking of that time, that black people were bought and owned, is not that far fetched.


Again, where's this coming from? So a doll, bought then given to someone else reinforces the idea that black people were also bought and owned?

I'd better throw out my collection of blues, jazz and ska records then - just in case someone thinks I'm reenforcing the idea of 'black people as commodity'. I know, I'll boycott products with black people on them or in them! Hmm, haven't I seen this before? Didn't this happen in America because of a racist ideology?

What doll - black, white, yellow, green, male, female - whatever - isn't sold, bought and passed on? Or do you think this only happens to black dolls? Whilst white slavery - where white people were bought and owned - has never been anywhere near the scale of the horror of black slavery, has existed. So shall we ban all toys because of this? Actually, if you're point has any merit, we should be banning all black dolls. Lets see what an outcry this causes.

Do you think that "programming a child's mind with ideas and thinking patterns" only works in a negative way and only reinforces slavery?


As does your inconsistent argument. Black people, as well as Jewish people, have feelings too.


If you're referring to the points you're trying to make about Jewish people compared to blacks; see above regarding your point about Jewish dolls - of which I don't think I've actually seen.


And you are forgetting one major point. The item in question has massive racial undertones. That can not be denied.

Someone was offended by it.


Someone, after a string of other allegations that weren't upheld and the accused not actually charged, claimed to be offended. All we know is that the person claimed to be offended (and, unless you're a mind-reader/remote-viewer combo, you can't say for certain either - you simply don't know) and when the police looked into the matter, the woman with the doll wasn't charged with anything.


It is not your place to say whether or not that person can be offended or not.

It is their right and they acted upon it.

You seem to think that if you think that it is ok then everyone else must accept it.

The sooner you accept that there are values and ideas that differ to yours the better.

Could please provide some links to the Jewish items that you speak of please.


What Jewish items? I'm not describing any Jewish items! You were the one that seemed to pluck 'Jewish dolls' out of the air! The only mention I made was of Nazi Jewish stereotypes, which usually took the form of illustrations. I'm not aware of the Nazis making Jew dolls for children, and, given their sickening racist ideology, I'm not sure that they'd have want to.



posted on Sep, 21 2008 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by skibtz

Originally posted by Merriman Weir What confuses the issue of the gollytoy*


Oh please. if you are going to stick up for the golliwog then please grow some balls and do it justice and refer to it properly.

Stop hiding behind 'golly' and 'gollytoy'.

It is a golliwog.

You see?

It is such a vulgar term in UK culture you have to hide it away!

Shame on you.


No, shame on you . I actually pointed out the use of 'gollytoy' in my very first post on this thread. It was a tongue in cheek reference to an episode of Extras which featured one of these dolls and highlighted these issues surrounding it. I also stated that I assumed, wrongly as it turns out, that the word 'gollywog' might have been under a censor blanket so I didn't even bother typing the word out.

Was any of that in the first post really difficult to understand or read? Or did you just blank that out as it doesn't serve the point you'd like to make?


There's a lot of confusion about Enid Blyton's gollies too, which have also received a lot of flak over the recent decades.
Here is a quote from one of her books:

"Once the three bold Golliwogs, Golly, Woggie, and N-word, decided to go for a walk to Bumble-Bee Common. Golly wasn't quite ready so Woggie and N-word said they would start off without him, and Golly would catch them up as soon as he could. So off went Woggie and N-word, arm-in-arm, singing merrily their favourite song - which, as you may guess, was Ten Little N-word Boys."

And just so you know, the song 'Ten Little N-word Boys' is a song that celebrates the death of ten black children, one-by-one.

Please Merriman Weir, where is the confusion you speak of?


You really are misunderstanding the point I made. The confusion I referred to lies in the common misunderstanding that the gollies in the book are direct analogues of black people, that they are direct representations of black people. When, in fact, there were actually black children in some of Enid Blyton's books. Blyton's gollies were, first and foremost, dolls.

Are you trying to make out that I'm racist or something and are so desperate to do so that you're either mistakenly or wilfully misreading my posts? I really hope that's not the case.


In the 1960's, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders British army regiment, wore a Robertson's golly brooch for each Arab they killed.

How nice. I must login to Ebay and get myself one!!!!!!


That some idiot racist jumps uses a golly badge to commemorate his kills means what exactly? He personally made a connection with a black doll and an Arab man? He's obviously making a direct point here. What, are you expecting me to deny that?

Racists use all kinds of symbolism as a vehicle for their views: swastikas, runes (the whole Norse mythology), Union Flags, American flags &c. None of these things had any innate racism attached until they were used. Now, God forbid, there was a spate of racist attacks in your home town and the racists called them themselves the 'Smurf Krew' and left calling cards like some of the football 'firms' have done (or still do) with Smurfs on them, what would that mean? That Smurfs have inherently racist properties?




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