Backlash Over Bailouts Grows in Congress, Wall Street (Update1)

If we bail them out, mega inflation.

We dont bail them out the dollar is worth more.

Looks like people are pulling strings.

Again just delaying the inevitable. The system of money we have in place is built to collapse considering all money is virtually debt. It's based off of nothing tangible and real. Let them fail, reorganize the system get rid of the Fed and place a better money system in place. We will go into a depression somewhere along the road no matter what, lets just fix it now.

Originally posted by FiatLux
A bailout, no matter what it`s for, is not a fix. It only puts off an even bigger collapse till another day. Get rid of the Fed. A transition from the Fed system, to a government run banking system can be made, yes there may be bumps and hills, but it can be done with only small damage done, not a total breakdown.

If anyone in Washington had a brain, they would be working on this right now. But, how many of them have a brain?

[edit on 20-9-2008 by FiatLux]

The fix has already been done. Executive Order 11110 put in place by JFK.

As a result, more than $4 billion in United States Notes were brought into circulation in $2 and $5 denominations. $10 and $20 United States Notes were never circulated but were being printed by the Treasury Department when Kennedy was assassinated. It appears obvious that President Kennedy knew the Federal Reserve Notes being used as the purported legal currency were contrary to the Constitution of the United States of America.

www.fdrs.org...

This EO has never been reversed. Of course you can see where going up against the Bankers will get you (a pine box).

The fact that both Obama and McCain will likely vote yes to bail out these companies in the future pretty much confirms yet again the conclusion I came to no too long ago...We have a race for the white house and it is a choice between two fascists.

Absorbing and consolidating is precisely what Hitler did just before the German economy took a steep dive..And it was only war production and the theft of much of Europe's resources that brought it out..Until the inevitable end.

America is stealing oil from the ME, and American corporation are stealing from us..Congress is stealing from us because they all have big investments in the companies they want protected. That is why they came out with this 700 billion dollar pay out to these large firms. Congress is literally ROBBING US and telling us it's for our own good.

reply to post by yellowcard

My friend by bailing out these companies we will go into another great depression. maybe not today this week or this month. all that will happen from bailing them out is putting off the outcome.

Let me ask you where is the money going to come from to bail them out. in this plan it comes from money the government doesn't have. It will be passed on to the taxpayers and our kids and grandchildrens and probably their grandchildren.

The world markets need to collapse We need to move away from a monetary system that is just a peeing contest to see who can amass the most money. When are people on this planet going to realize that we need to work to better ourselves and not build a pile of money that isn't even worth the paper its printed on.


[edit on 9/20/2008 by Mercenary2007]

I don't think the posters to this point understand the situation that we are in. We are literally days away from having the whole system collapse. I truly believe this. Everything will stop. Chaos will erupt. There will be no food, no gas, no power, no nothing, no money or credit cards. It willbe Katrina New Orleans all over the USA and the world. A fix is deinitely needed and fast. Weare allin this together whether or not you want to accept that.

I truly believe that this can be done without taxpayers having to pay much or even making money. Goverment buys the loans for a bit less than are worth in terms of property value. Goverment then redoes the loan to homwner with terms more reflective of current property value and ability to repay. Not all will qualify. Loan is then resold on the private market at terms reflecting a much lower risk of default. Ultimately the goverment would be selling the loans for more than they paid for them. The homeowner stays in the house with an affordable mortgage. Banks get more than they would get now for these same assets, but ultimately many would fail as they have to take the writeoffs. The difference is that their failure will not mean the economic devastation that we would have seen without this plan.

On the flip side, if the Goverment pays more than the loans are worth, then the banks will be saved on the backs of the taxpayers. The loans would probably then be sold at a loss to the vulture set investors and the homeowners would be out of luck. I think in this case then we can just about write off any chance of economic recovery for at least a decade and everyones worst fears will come to fruation.

It is crucial that you contact your senators and represenatives to let them know how you feel. Do it right now! Let them know that we must save those homeowners. It is the only chance we have of avoiding a more dominate master - slave economic future.

Edit repeat post

[edit on 20-9-2008 by disgustedbyhumanity]

The scary part is that every 'fix' over the last two weeks has given us less and less bang for the buck. Fannie and Freddie lasted two weeks and AIG didn't last at all. A quarter of a Trillion dollars was pumped by the central banks last week just to keep the banks lending. IF this doesn't work, I think it will be over.

[edit on 20-9-2008 by HimWhoHathAnEar]

Isn't it ironic that these same corporations that want the taxpayers to bail them out of their bankruptcy were the same ones that pushed for more stringent bankruptcy laws for these same taxpayers? Where it has become harder for the ordinary taxpayer not only to file for bankruptcy, but even after filing he is still responsible for his debt? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not bailing out these companies would have hurt millions of investors around the world. The Chinese and Japanese economies would have collapsed if Fannie and Freddie went under due to the sheer amount of mortgages they held. Countless pensions and insurance policies would have been at dire risks if AIG went under. There would have been a huge loss in confidence in the global economies and we all would be destitute in weeks.

BUT

Bailing out these companies without severe punishment to the major players that caused this creates a giant moral hazard and everything I said above will likely repeat itself in the future only with much larger debt numbers and nastier implications.

The people that caused this need to be punished severely. The members of Congress that blocked Fannie and Freddie reforms need to be punished severely( although I think some of them were with the huge losses suffered by Kerry and Pelosi). The CEO's of banks that relaxed their lending standards to churn up the housing market need to be relieved of every penny they own.

The people want to run the risk and make big money then fine. If their risk is that failure will lead to the fall of the economy, then they should realize that their failure should result in the massive loss of personal assets instead of walking away free as a bird (with golden parachutes).

If the elites continue fleecing the economy and the tax payer, pretty soon their will be communist revolts and revolutions that will be the modern version of the French Reign of Terror.

Originally posted by Ameneter
Isn't it ironic that these same corporations that want the taxpayers to bail them out of their bankruptcy were the same ones that pushed for more stringent bankruptcy laws for these same taxpayers? Where it has become harder for the ordinary taxpayer not only to file for bankruptcy, but even after filing he is still responsible for his debt? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Excellent point. I can't stand Hypocrisy and this is so blantant it screams at you. The sad part is that most people are so caught up in their 'normal' day to day existence, that they are blind to the underlying causes of that existence. It truly shows that Comfort can be your worst enemy.

For instance, I don't know anyone who can feed themselves on a regular basis without the Grocery Store. That is Dependence at a very basic level and most don't even realize they are dependent. So at that point I guess they just do what they're told.

reply to post by Mercenary2007


I agree. Hold the incompetent CEOs of these failing financial accountable for their actions. Take away their milions and millions in "golden parachutes" and use it to pay off the some of the debts. Then why don't we wipe everyone's debt clean and start over, have oversight and competent accountable people at the helm and do it right. It is not in the people's best interests to have to bail out the CEOs and their failed institutions. We are not responsible for the mistakes of an elite few. Better yet, divide $700 billion among every American citizen.! At 300 million people, that's over one $2 bllion per person! That would be certain to boost the economy, wouldn't it?

Well, with the US Dollar falling and becoming hyper inflated, we could see a new boom in foreign business and industry coming here as we saw a lot of our industry move to Mexico and China. If it's cheaper to manufacture here in the US, then they will come. That could provide jobs to areas that really need them. Tourism will also see a boom, as the US is already a cheap vacation destination for many countries. As the dollar drops, tourism will increase. This could also provide additional money that stays in country. I'm trying to remain somewhat optimistic in a dire situation. A devalued dollar isn't necessarily a bad thing.

it would seem that letting the banks implode would cost more in the long and short term than bailing them out, although, that's what happens when we allow for some of the deregulation that has happened with them.

Question to ponder: if the bank that services your loan fails, disappears, goes belly up, whatever.. more or less, ends up disappearing.. what happens to your mortgage and property? One would assume that the bank has more or less a fire sale for its mortgages.. but what if yours is one thats not picked up?I'm sure it'll matter depending on how your loan was done.. as in the bank owns it until you pay off, or you own it and the bank has/had a lein on teh deed.

The bank would still sell it to another bank. Even if the bank it sold it to bought it for 1/2 or even 1/4 of the value of the loan. The bank that bought it could then have a very lucrative profit both if you defaulted in the loan, and they got the property, and if you stayed and paid the full price of the loan.

BTW for someone else, 700b/300m is 2,333 per person, not 2 billion. This is how much you will pay to have the government take over these loans. I guestimate a 25-30% reduction in price, which means that government will repackage the loans for significantly less, that people can afford, then resell them back to banks. Whether we make money or not depends on whether we get these bad mortgages at a significant discount, or at full value of the loans.

If we get it at full value. Then the banks make money on them, we loose money, and the homeowners make money, with a loss of asset value.

If we get the loans at a discount, the banks take a loss, although not a bad loss, or a loss they would have taken if they would have been stuck with them. We take a little loss, and the homeowner takes none, less the devaluation of the mortgage and house.

If we get the loans at fire sale pricing, the banks still go under, we take a profit, and the homeowner takes none, less the devaluation again.

I personally think the bail out can work, however we should be picking up these assets at fire sale prices, repackaging them, then reselling them back into the market, NOT buying them at face value.

This current bill list nothing, nothing at all that gives any clarity as to what is going to happen. We are basically giving 700b to 1 man, which on faith, will do what he wants that is in our best interest. no, I disagree with the current bill in its current form.

Camain
Camain

Lets see, at around 3am this morning i heard on the radio that Pelosi was running around saying: "Why, there's nothing else we can do but approve this"

The outcome is right there. Dont hold out any hope that we are getting out of this alive.

We are being RAPED. I'm sure those FEMA CAMPS are being freshened up as we speak.

What a diabolical scheme. I never thought, inspite of all the suspicions that the Renses of the world, or the Jones' of the world would be 100% correct and then some.

The solution has to be a global one, Americans are not alone in the world,
China and Europe in fact also own vast quantities of bad american debt,I really wonder if anyone ever sees the information available to all or if we just pick out the bits that suit our point of view and state of mind.
Ordinary americans ( working class that is) hardly have any savings,
you owe money on credit cards and usually have a mortgage that consums whatever is left...,so what?! Who actually owns your house, the banks right ?! So what happens if they go bust because we can no longer
give them every dollar that we make, including a large % of the taxes that we pay in form of the national debt. Do those houses disappear ?
Does your fat gas guzzling vehicule vanish? No, not a bit of it, what happens if the world monetary system goes bust because the slaves can longer earn the interest to keep it going ?
Back in the twenties and early thirties new monetary ideas had a chance
because the government ( the slave masters) no longer had full control,
in one district town called Wörgl in Austria the local credit union printed their own money, you could borrow this money for no interest as long as you invested or spend all of it within a month, if you did not it would cost you some % when you traded in for new money( new money was printed every month)
So money was used primarily as a means for trade and investment, nobody tried to hang on to it because it was not generating any capital in itself. The result was that within one year the district of Wörgl had the
healthiest growing economy in all of austria and what do you suppose
happened then ? The Bank of Austria stepped in declared itself
as the only legitimate issuer of money in Austria and things returned to the status quo. That is the reality of our present monetary system,
the federal reserve, the ECB, the chinese central bank ( the government) are the institutions that control the money and interest rates, so who goes bust if the $ or € loose their value ?? It could be so simple...!

the government doesn't pay property tax, does it??

So, I take it that if they end up holding the mortgages of all these foreclosed homes in my city, that my city will be losing some revenue?
Which they then will proceed to take out of my skin?

ya know, I don't really want all this property being sold off to our creditors overseas....can we have a guarentee that this isn't gonna happen? ya know, for the sake of national interest and all that..

and well, can we outsource our government to china now, please, what the hey... it'll be cheaper and probably won't make much of a difference....since the one we have now isn't looking out for our interests anyways.

anyone who ever comes at me again accusing me of being a socialist, telling me why we can't do this or that because...it's socialist....
well, you're probably gonna get one big giant verbal assault back, just warning ya.
our government is on the verge of practically owning all the primary real estate industries....our homes!! the most valuable thing we own! land!! land we can do what we want with, we can plant gardens on, grow our food, since we won't be buying it in the store much longer it's gonna cost too much.
ya, the dems are socialist because they put into the place the gov't programs that take the bite out of the results of the republican trickle down economics so the economy can keep churning.
sure.....the heads and the tails are just different views of the same coin, throw the danged thing across the room, hey, they both go in the same direction!
start learning chinese and arab, you're probably gonna need to know it if you want to rent that home in the future...since I bet ya twelve to one, it's the collateral for the next 1 million or so defense, war, appropriations bills that are to come!

Hello all, this is my first post, but I have been reading the forums (with great interest) for a couple years now.
I am amazed at the recent goings on in the financial markets and as such I have an opinion on what I think is going on. This 2 Trillion dollar bailout package will help in the short term to keep things stable, a "band aid" if you will. However, the long term effects are going to be far more painfull, through inflation / devaluation of the dollar and so on. I believe this is a carefully orchestrated event designed to lead up to the formation of the N.A.U, they (the FED and the Government) know the only logical solution is to allow these banks AIG Fanny Mae and so on to go under, that is how a free market economy is supposed to function, their assets would be bought up (at rock bottom prices) by the surviving financial institutions, what they are doing is counter productive to a normal fuctioning free market economy.

The long term effects will be.

1) Devaluation of the dollar.
To cover this bailout the FED is going to have to "loan" the Treasury 2 Trillion, which the Treasury will "purchase" with Bonds increasing the US Federal Debt to 11 Trillion, The FED will simply order the US mints to Print 2 Trillion more dollars for circulation thus causing the dollar to slip further into the abyss of worthlessness.

2) Inflation.
It is only logical to assume that if your "dollar" is worth less then prices for common goods food/fuel/everything/ect, are will go up. In my 20 years of service to the US Navy I have traveled all around the world. I have been to a number of countries Turkey in particular was an extreme case of devalued currency (You could buy millions of Turkish Lira for a dollar) and hyper inflation.

If this bailout is allowed to happen it will allow "them" to slowly chip away at the American standard of living until we slip into a full blown depression, at which time we will be completly malleable and will turn to anything or anyone that can offer a better way.
This will be when they offer a "solution" which will be the formation of the bold new North American Union offering a new hope through the creation of new jobs and new economic prospects by the integration of the countries involved, However there will be a dark side, in order for this to happen they will have to dispose of the US Constitution and the bill of rights which they will do with all member nations. They will write a new NAU constitution, without all those pesky individual rights amendments, but will allow sweeping powers for the central bank, (You are seeing some of this now in the draft of the bailout. "Financial institutions will be regarded as agents of the government" Great idea they caused the mess so now lets award them with "Agents of the Federal Government" status.

Again in my opinion this is all "orchestrated" to allow them to further the NWO agenda. If things get real bad people will demand it and give up thier rights for the promise of bread.

Regards
Sailor

reply to post by Sailor1


Bailing these fat cats out is the worst idea I've heard in a long time. They helped to create the problem, why should we bail them out. This whole financial catastrophy was created by Greenspans "easy credit" policy, now we propose to bail them out with easy credit. Does this make sense to anyone? You might as well help a heroin junky by giving them heroin. It makes no sense at all! This bailout will be the final nail in the dollars coffin.

Please, please call your congressman, it's easy. Simply google "contact your state congressman/senator" There is no time to wait! Do it now!