Originally posted by miriam0566
not without religion, without god.

So, without god, you'd be a child molester? I don't believe that.

of what use is a compass in the woods if every time you consult it, you do so with a magnet near it?

The "compass" analogy can be taken too far. That's the benefit, I guess, in not adopting other people's morals.

we are who we hang out with.

Perhaps some people are. But I don't become who I hang out with. I have my own strict set of morals that guides me.

if you desensitize yourself to violence, sex, or lying for example, how can you trust your moral compass?

I have watched hundreds of violent movies, I've been hit, I've read many violent novels and yet, I have never been violent. I have never cheated on a mate and I don't lie. How can I trust my moral compass? Experience tells me that it's working just fine. I have integrity. It seems so easy to me. It's a matter of making the decision and having my honesty and integrity be the most important values that I possess.

I hate to say it but the bible does say being gay is a abomination. But that does'nt mean it cant be forgivein. And I dont think a priest should be able to be gay in the church. I dont believe showing children this is ok. I think a true christian would not promote being gay as ok. But I do believe its forgivable. Go with God.

Originally posted by miriam0566
according to that reasoning, noone does anything wrong ever as long as they believe it is ok.

It's not for me to dictate other people's morals.

people like hitler believed that what they were doing was right. so who says different? where is the line?

Hitler was a Christian. Not the best example.

now certain parts of the bible, you may not agree with, which is fine, its your opinion.

I haven't given my opinion of the bible.

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth...God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every imaginaton of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.....The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." Genesis chapter 6)

In answer to the question posed by BH as to whether people would be wife beaters or child molesters if there was no law, I say, Yes, probably. As you mentioned, there are already laws and yet we still have problems with lawlessness. The story in Genesis describes a time before the law was given by God and without moral absolutes there was "only evil continually". This "do what thou wilt" ideaology promulgated by the secular humanist crowd has resulted in an increase in lawlessness, not a decrease as promised.

I'm old enough to remember a time when the prisons were not overcrowded, when people knew their neighbors, when we slept with our doors unlocked and our windows open, when we left the car running, keys in the ignition, purse on the front seat and ran in to grab a quick item from the store. These things are unthinkable now. In ONE generation of "do what thou wilt", "if it feels good do it" lack of moral absolutes.

In one generation 2 entirely new crimes, unheard of before have arisen from the imagination of the hearts of only evil continually: car jacking and drive-by shootings. Besides which, there are certain behaviors that are not conducive to an orderly society regardless of whether you believe them to be innately wrong or not.

This is the problem I see with some triumphantly (in their minds) shouting: "but you're a Christian!". They assume that they are not accountable for their actions because, so far, they haven't really been accountable. It's a hit or miss on accountability for them. I think these people understand that there are consequences for behaviors/actions and when they see Christians (who are held to a higher standard) engaging in behaviors they themselves deem innappropriate, they expect the consequences to be swift and merciless. What these people fail to realize is that this is the age of grace. There will be consequences (for us all). If the Christian has escaped consequences for actions that even the unbeliever knows to be a "sin", the unbeliever deems God to be capricious and unrighteous. This is not the case; He is longsuffering and not willing that any should die but that all should come to Him.

There were 2 trees in the garden of Eden, as you know: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. Knowledge can be good or evil and we can choose which knowledge we prefer. It's still from the same tree-the one we weren't supposed to eat from. Good and evil are just 2 horns on the same goat (as my grandma used to say). The tree we were meant to eat from was the tree of life.

Some atheists use the story in Genesis to complain that God wants us to be stupid; without knowledge. That is, of course, ridiculous. Man knew enough to be able to tend a very large garden by himself and to name all the animals. He certainly wasn't stupid. However knowledge of good and evil just set up divisions over which camp is better. The better tree was the tree of life. We were meant to contain the life of God (who is our life) and we chose not to do that. Whether we're filled with good knowledge or evil knowledge (or likely a little of both), it's beside the point: we were supposed to be filled with life. Christ had to make the ultimate sacrifice so we could have another shot at making the correct choice.

well, I'm not a Christian... not completely anyway. I do believe some things in your religion, but not all. There are just some things written in the Bible that just seem to outwardly contradict other scriptures. (i'm falling off topic) Anyway, when I get in heated arguments about religion with other Christians, I'm usually told (at some point or in some form) that I will go to hell, at which point the argument ends and I leave whichever person stated that to be full of themselves for the rest of the day. The region of the US where I live is primarily Catholic, so many discussions end with me being told my different view of the Christian religion would be viewed as Heresy 1000 years ago, at which point they say "You're going to hell" and the argument ends.

On a side note-- since ATS/BTS lets people defend their side of a particular religion, it would be nice to have a few devout Christians look over my core beliefs to see if there's any REAL faults to my beliefs.

Lay them on the table.

The annointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you...(I John2:27)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things...(John 14:26)

I was raised Catholic and when I was 7 we had a visiting bishop come to our "church". I asked him 3 questions pertaining to catholocism and he couldn't give a satisfactory answer, especially when I quoted scripture to him. I knew then that, while there were many devout and good people in the catholic church, that catholocism itself was a system of errors.
Protest-antism isn't much better. Revelation refers to it as the mother of harlots (making alll the denominations that broke away from the "mother church" harlots). Not a ringing endorsement of what Christianity has become. I'm fairly sure Christ never wanted religiosity to take hold. It has been a stumbling stone to many.

Let the barbeque begin, oh ye flamers!

That said, next time you read your bible, read it as though you'd never heard of Christ or ever talked to a Christian. Forget everything you learned in Sunday school and just pray as you read. Bible's a lot more interesting when you sac-religion, dump your concepts and throw out the traditions of men.

In re-reading it, you're right; I wasn't very clear. RCC is the mother of harlots and the Protest-antism are the harlots. Feel better?

Originally posted by whitewave
In re-reading it, you're right; I wasn't very clear. RCC is the mother of harlots and the Protest-antism are the harlots. Feel better?

You still are looking at it wrong. This may offend some here, but oh well:

Many Catholic practitioners are the harlots.. these individuals are born from the RCC.

Not the churches who rejected the RCC.

I agree completely. I used to watch the televangelists because they were the best source of comedy on TV. Now I just feel kind of saddened by their antics. "tuch- ah yo hayund to tha skareen and pah-raaaaaay for yo balessin!" I wonder if they take an additional class to learn how to speak like that?

The health and wealth gospel being promulgated from the pulpits is just Santa Claus dressed in a frock. Gimmee, gimmee, gimmee. Do any of the believers ever ask what God wants? Do they ever pray that they may be used by God to accomplish God's goals?

Christ never promised us a rose garden; in fact, quite the opposite. He said he knew what our NEEDS were and would take care of those. Godliness with contentment is great gain. I have a lot to say on this subject but will limit myself for now. As always, I appreciate all the input that helps to raise the bar higher for all of us. S&F to you, OP.

[edit on 27-9-2008 by whitewave]