'But You're A Christian!'

Originally posted by AshleyD
First of all, it actually is Christ like behavior and scriptural for a Christian to say my religion is 'right' and yours is 'wrong.'

I understand that. And my point is that as long as you do that, impose your beliefs on others, you can expect to be called out for behavior that does not match your own stated beliefs.

If I were to say that atheism is "right" and religion is "wrong", then I would expect to be called out if I was seen praying or attending church. I would fully expect someone to say, "I thought you were an atheist". I would not be offended because someone questioned me doing something I said is "wrong".

I'm not saying you should stop trying to bring people to your religion. I know it's part of your religion. But being that that is what you do, you can't expect to be sheltered from people judging your behavior. You have put it out there, saying, "This is right and what you are doing is wrong". So when you do something "wrong", people are naturally going to bring it to your attention.

You understand that, right?

We are also told to, much to the chagrin of nonbelievers, speak out against things we see as wrong.

Much of the "you" and "I" language below, is generic. I'm just speaking in generalities.

I don't have a problem with you speaking out against what you see as wrong. But I also have the same right to speak out against what I see as wrong. Just because you are a Christian does not protect you or exempt you from the opinions and judgments of other people. And sometimes, those judgments are going to be that you don't seem to be acting Christian-like, just as your judgment may be that gay people are "sinning".

Jesus set the bar high for us.

Many people have very high morals and standards, though. Christians don't have a claim to high standards. Dbates' cartoon (in this context) shows that non-Christians have low standards. That may just be his conclusion, but if I made the assumption that black people are stupid or fat people are lazy, it would be no more of a prejudice than thinking that non-Christians have low morals.

I've seen Christians on ATS told to 'log off and go to church.'

And I've seen non-Christians told that they're going to hell...

Well, I'm sorry but we are entitled to that and are even encouraged Biblically to do so.

Yes, you are. And so is everyone. Everyone is entitled to share their opinions. And if it is your opinion that I'm going to hell and you share that with me, I am just as entitled to share that I think you're being unChristian-like.

It almost sounds as though you think that because you have a book that tells you that you can share your judgments and opinion about others with them, and encourages you to do so, that somehow you should be protected from others sharing their judgments and opinions about you. And that's ok. But I think you're going to be frustrated because your religion does not protect you from people's opinions any more than my beliefs protect me from your opinions and judgments about me going to hell.

A statement perfectly aligned with scripture: Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation. The only options are Jesus and Heaven or denial of Jesus and Hell.
A statement that goes against Christ's teachings: You dirty rotten hell bound heathen.

Interestingly, they mean the same thing to me. Maybe that's part of the problem. Perhaps non-believers don't really care the attitude you take when you condemn them to hell. It doesn't matter if it's covered in flowers or poo. It's still a condemnation and still feels very much like a negative judgment.

It has taken me a long time to get to the point where I don't take offense at being condemned by Christians. I understand it's part of your religion and it doesn't have any effect on me. But many people are personally offended when told that they're going to burn in a fiery Hell. Just as you are offended when people play the "But You're A Christian!" card.

I'm referring to the incidences where it is completely unjustified

I'm just not sure that you get to say whether or not it's justified. If someone feels you're not being Christian-like, then they are entitled to say so, just as you are entitled to tell them that their morals aren't high enough or that they are sinning and will go to hell. To me, it's the exact same thing. You're both sharing your beliefs about the behavior of another person. And the fact that you got your information from a book doesn't make you exempt from hearing the criticisms of other people.

Please remember that I'm speaking in generalities, not you particularly.

They threw the same accusations at Christ. He tells of it when He said, "John came neither eating nor drinking and you said 'he has a devil', the son of man came eating and drinking and you say, 'behold, a gluttonous man and a wine-bibber'."

Again, thank you so much for replying. I'm thoroughly enjoying hearing your views.

I still think we are somehow missing each other at the pass. For instance: The case of hypocrites. Let's say I'm preaching from the roof tops about homosexuality being a sin but it is later revealed I am having a secret homosexual relationship. Oops! I would immediately be labeled a hypocrite and rightfully so. However, I am talking about incidences where we are labeled intolerant, hypocritical, and un-Christlike when we are not behaving in any such manner.

This is an example of what happened to me just this morning on another site. On ATS I pretty much stick to the 'facts and evidence' of the faith and engage in frequent debates but on this other site, my approach is pretty much nothing but love, love, love more than anything else. On this other site (You Tube, BTW- not that it's important) I was actually accused of being un-Christlike and they accused me of being a hypocrite (their exact word) because I was loving and not taking about Hell. Not kidding- I will paste the PM here if need be. lol In that case, I was being totally Christ-like.

Another general example that happens often when I am admitting to what the Bible describes as a sin: When someone asks me what the Bible says about homosexuality (and I am not a homosexual and have never engaged in homosexuality so the hypocrite charge does not apply), I will honestly tell them, with love and meekness, that it IS a sin according to my Bible. It is not atypical for me to then be met with the 'judgmental Christian' accusation or to be told that I am un-Christlike when, again, I am doing exactly what is expected of me.

I cannot be clear enough about this. This is not a case of Christians behaving badly and needing the rebuke- as we should humbly accept according to Jesus. Instead, these are about those moments where we are acting Christ-like, following His teachings to the absolute letter, telling people exactly what the Bible says about the topic at hand and handling it exactly how we are commanded to approach the matter, only to be met with the 'You're a bad Christian' card.

In such incidences, it is absolutely not justified. These are the incidences I'm trying to talk about in this thread. I have a big mouth around here and I am aware my temper and short fuse often gets the better of me. This is definitely one of my short comings and I have to admit to it. It's also something I've asked God to help me overcome. But there are other times where I'm being bold but respectful (scriptural), speaking out (scriptural), supporting my position (scriptural), etc., then almost as a last resort, I'll hear the 'bad Christian' accusation. Yes, it is a pet peeve and almost seems to be a last resort defense. And this isn't just me- I see it happen all the time to Christians everywhere.

You then go on to say how Christians should not feel like we are immune to criticism or disagreement. I say, absolutely! I agree with you. If I say 'Jesus is the only way' and you say, 'No He is not,' I should be respectful of that. If I say 'homosexuality is a sin' and you say, 'I do not believe homosexuality is wrong at all- nevertheless a sin,' I should be respectful of that as well. However, what I am tired of seeing is the 'bad Christian' accusation when that is actually the behavior of a true Christian- to speak out against sin or to profess that Jesus is the only way. Like you, the terms 'you' and 'I' are also general statements- not specifically speaking of you and me.

So, Christians absolutely should be prepared to be met with disagreement of our beliefs. Absolutely. However, the 'bad Christian' accusation or the 'Judge Not' fallacy is off base. We are well aware our Bible is not P.C. and that we as well are not considered P.C.

And of course they have a 'right' to call us bad Christians, just as we have the 'right' to correct them and show how our behavior aligns with Christ's teachings if the case justifies it.

Edit to add: So the point of this thread is more to get the opinions of Christians of WHY they are met with this when it is not justified and how they feel about it or deal with it or from non-Christians who use it and why. Just on a behavioral level- I don't plan to solve this problem through this thread. lol

[edit on 9/22/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by whitewave


I was just thinking about the 'no win' situation Jesus was placed into. We often find ourselves in the same predicament.

Speaking out against sin: Judge not!
Being susceptible to human failings: You hypocrite!
Love, love, love: Passive aggression!

Oh well.

Originally posted by AshleyD
However, I am talking about incidences where we are labeled intolerant, hypocritical, and un-Christlike when we are not behaving in any such manner.

And others are labeled as "sinners" (by you) when they are not sinning according to their rules and beliefs. Yes, they are "sinning" according to you and your religion, but they are not sinning according to their own beliefs.

Each person should live according to their own beliefs. If I (for example) am a homosexual and, according to my beliefs, that is just fine, I am not a "sinner", but you come along and label me a "sinner" because, according to your beliefs, I am.

Instead, these are about those moments where we are acting Christ-like, following His teachings to the absolute letter, telling people exactly what the Bible says about the topic at hand and handling it exactly how we are commanded to approach the matter, only to be met with the 'You're a bad Christian' card.

Well, I'm not sure why you're concerned about it, then. If you know you're not doing anything wrong, why does it concern you that someone calls you a hypocrite of whatever?

And of course they have a 'right' to call us bad Christians, just as we have the 'right' to correct them and show how our behavior aligns with Christ's teachings if the case justifies it.

That's really all I was saying.

Originally posted by AshleyD

For Christians, how does it make you feel to hear such a thing. Does it convict you or do you consider it a manipulative bait tactic? I'm hoping no hardcore debate breaks out over this. It would just be nice to hear from other people.

i take it stride.

i try to remember several things

- jesus was not liked, in fact he wasnt liked to the point of being killed.
- jesus was at times bold. calling someone offspring of vipers isnt exactly polite.
- jesus did not accept hypocritical attitudes amoung fellows ¨in the faith¨. the money changers in the temple were fellow jews and should have known better.
- jesus also knew when to be mild

christianity is not going to be something that is liked by people who feel they are fine the way they are. they are naturally going to ¨stab¨from time to time

reply to post by AshleyD

'But You're A Christian!'

That's an "Ad Hominem" argument..

it carries ZERO weight. Only fools use it as a counter-point.

I could care less when people use it against me, it just means they are arguing from an inferior point.

reply to post by drevill

if could add to the part you mentioned regarding Christ sending us like sheep amongst the wolves,

I belive Bigwhammy mentioned threads and moderators, but i believe it is good for those posters to post anti Christian threads, the reason is that every opportunity to speak the truth of God.

I really like what brother David has to say here, it is actually a blessing that these threads are not censored, we get the opportunity to take the fight to the enemy.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And others are labeled as "sinners" (by you) when they are not sinning according to their rules and beliefs. Yes, they are "sinning" according to you and your religion, but they are not sinning according to their own beliefs.

I agree with this. The thing is, I generally don't run around telling people they are sinners (Christian or non-Christian). I generally wait until someone asks me what the Bible says about the subject or if there is a thread about a certain act being a sin. Other than that, I pretty much keep my mouth shut on it. Especially in western society where pretty much everyone already knows the fundamentals of Christianity. There is no point to hammer it home because that is also unscriptural. We can only state our case then are told to walk away if they request it.

Each person should live according to their own beliefs. If I (for example) am a homosexual and, according to my beliefs, that is just fine, I am not a "sinner", but you come along and label me a "sinner" because, according to your beliefs, I am.

Well, I'm not sure why you're concerned about it, then. If you know you're not doing anything wrong, why does it concern you that someone calls you a hypocrite of whatever?

I don't lose sleep over it but that doesn't mean it's not a topic I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on. It's also not something I'll try to pretend that I am above it because it does frustrate me. But that is only my problem- nobody else's. On a spiritual level we are told why this happens and to expect it. It's never a surprise, in other words. However, it's nice to hear from others, Christian and non-Christian alike.

Thanks again for sharing. I loved your posts.



reply to post by miriam0566


Thank you so much for your reply as well. I completely agree with everything you say. Jesus said it would happen, we know why it does happen, and we see it happen. Thanks for letting me know how you feel about it when it does happen.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's an "Ad Hominem" argument.

That's an interesting perspective. Never saw it that way. Thanks for contributing that.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by AshleyD
However, I am talking about incidences where we are labeled intolerant, hypocritical, and un-Christlike when we are not behaving in any such manner.

And others are labeled as "sinners" (by you) when they are not sinning according to their rules and beliefs. Yes, they are "sinning" according to you and your religion, but they are not sinning according to their own beliefs. Each person should live according to their own beliefs.

I'm gonna go ahead and just step right out on this overhanging limb here.
My beliefs and your (general) beliefs are not the standard for behavior. "There is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof are death." Everyone is right in their own eyes, even child molesters and wife beaters. Everyone is able to justify their actions to their own satisfaction.
If there is no moral standard for comparison then anything goes. If your (general) moral compass has no magnetic North, then you'll be forever wandering lost. Why can we not beat our wifes or molest children? Because it's against the law. Contrary to popular opinion, there are indeed absolutes. Our laws are (were) based on the 10 commandments.

reply to post by whitewave

And others are labeled as "sinners"

We're all sinners, every one of us. Your statement makes no sense.

reply to post by AshleyD



sometime Jesus was asked an inflaming question with the hope of making him stumble or to provocation.

we can see that a direct answer could enter those realms so at time Jesus answers the with the truth but not in a way that was expected.

at times we could answer as expected but this can lead to more sin and hate from the persons asking the question.

there is no such thing as tolerance as it will always come with boundaries and rules of the individuals interpretation.

"i cant stand intolerence"

The same applies to live and let live. Can these people imagine this type of world

all crime as we know it would not be punishable. do people think of this when we are told to be tolerant?

david


[edit on 23-9-2008 by drevill]

reply to post by NOTurTypical



I was quoting Benevolent Heretic in one of her earlier posts. Sorry, I don't know how to do that "quote thingie". My response to BH started at the next paragraph. Sorry for the confusion. And yes, you're right, we're all sinners.

Originally posted by whitewave
My beliefs and your (general) beliefs are not the standard for behavior.

I can't speak for you, but mine certainly are. My beliefs are the standard for my behavior.

If there is no moral standard for comparison then anything goes.

Are you saying that without religion to tell you what's right and wrong, that you'd be a child molester or wife beater? Is your religion all that's stopping you? Because I think we all have our own moral compasses. Not everyone follows them, but (with the exception of psychopaths) we all have them.

If your (general) moral compass has no magnetic North, then you'll be forever wandering lost.

But mine does have a magnetic North. It's working very well. I'm not lost at all.

Why can we not beat our wifes or molest children? Because it's against the law.

And yet, people still do beat their wives and molest children... Neither the law nor religion stop that from happening.

Our laws are (were) based on the 10 commandments.

Of the 10 commandments, only two have any similarity to American law, those being murder and theft. And there are thousands of laws that have nothing to do with the 10 commandments. Just because 2 of them are common, doesn't mean one was based on the other.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


hello

can i ask on what do you measure your moral compass?

im sorry but your own moral compass???????? by saying this alone you assume that yours is correct.

Is it not true that your comapss is defined by society and the one that you live in?

is it not true that most, if not all western societies have their origins in the Bible and the Christian heritage?

for arguments sake do you think its moral for a 40 year old to have sex with 14 year old???

well its legal in Canada and Hungary but there would be an outrage here in the Uk.

all compasses need something to measure against, what is yours?

david

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


re 10 commandments

are you saying that you do NOT wish to be treated as you would treat yourself? and that you would not treat others in the same way?

are you saying people should not honour their parents?

apart from the direct commandments towards God the rest are about respecting each other and one anothers rights as a person

david

Originally posted by drevill
can i ask on what do you measure your moral compass?

I'm sorry, I don't understand that question.

im sorry but your own moral compass???????? by saying this alone you assume that yours is correct.

It is "correct" for me.

Is it not true that your comapss is defined by society and the one that you live in?

Partially, yes. It's also defined by my parents, teachers, the world, history, but mostly by me.

is it not true that most, if not all western societies have their origins in the Bible and the Christian heritage?

I think history is the origin of our society. While religion played a part in history, it's not the origin, but one aspect, one element of a large picture.

Source
Protestantism, secularism, liberalism, nationalism, and industrialism, are the ingredients that carved American Heritage. It is each of these that have contributed extensively at various stages in American history to make paint the picture that one witnesses today. Though these all may have existed and taken control at different stages in history, some of them are still prevalent, existing at different intensities. Historically speaking, one may say it is the way that people at particular times behaved or interacted that led to the consensual notions so formed.

for arguments sake do you think its moral for a 40 year old to have sex with 14 year old???

It would depend entirely on the situation.

all compasses need something to measure against, what is yours?

This sounds like the first question and I still don't understand what you're asking.

Originally posted by drevill
are you saying that you do NOT wish to be treated as you would treat yourself? and that you would not treat others in the same way?

That's the Golden Rule, not the 10 commandments. And I didn't say anything about that.

are you saying people should not honour their parents?

Where did you get that idea? All I said is that it's not a LAW.

apart from the direct commandments towards God the rest are about respecting each other and one anothers rights as a person

Yes, but they are not LAW.

I was responding to this:

Originally posted by whitewave
Our laws are (were) based on the 10 commandments.

[edit on 23-9-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by whitewave
If there is no moral standard for comparison then anything goes.

Are you saying that without religion to tell you what's right and wrong, that you'd be a child molester or wife beater? Is your religion all that's stopping you? Because I think we all have our own moral compasses. Not everyone follows them, but (with the exception of psychopaths) we all have them.

not without religion, without god. it is expected that a god that creates would understand the moral consequences of it´s creation´s actions better that the creation

you are right, everyone has a moral compass. but like a real compass, its ability to function can be manipulated but factors outside if one is not careful. of what use is a compass in the woods if every time you consult it, you do so with a magnet near it?

the bible says to beware of bad associates and not to dine with sinners. do you think thats because christians are supposed to be haughty? no way, its because bad habits rub off on people. we are who we hang out with.

if you desensitize yourself to violence, sex, or lying for example, how can you trust your moral compass?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And others are labeled as "sinners" (by you) when they are not sinning according to their rules and beliefs. Yes, they are "sinning" according to you and your religion, but they are not sinning according to their own beliefs.

Each person should live according to their own beliefs. If I (for example) am a homosexual and, according to my beliefs, that is just fine, I am not a "sinner", but you come along and label me a "sinner" because, according to your beliefs, I am.

according to that reasoning, noone does anything wrong ever as long as they believe it is ok.

people like hitler believed that what they were doing was right. so who says different? where is the line?

most people believe the line is whether or not what you are doing is hurting someone else. hitler did wrong because he hurt people (understatment i know) which is a good moral line, but does that include hurting one´s self? afterall, how can you not hurt others if you keep hurting yourself?

sound familiar?

golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated. now certain parts of the bible, you may not agree with, which is fine, its your opinion.