Russia Test-Fires Ballistic Missile 6,700 Kilometers to Pacific

The analogy with the patriots Missles is based on the fact That i personally know one of the guys that helped developed them and trained the crews on how to use them. And the use of the ABM that will be placed in Polland is the same as the Patriots.

They are more effective if launched with a head to head intercept. If a chase intercept is used it will not be effective.

Yes Maloy i read the article you posted on this and it contridicts what is Known with previous anti missle systems.

This is like comparing apples to oranges but you might get the idea.

Take a ball and throw it away from you, then immediately throw a ball from behind to try and hit it, What happened? You either completely missed the 1st ball, Hit the first ball and pushed it forward, or you hit it and pushed it down or higher a little bit.

Now Have a friend take a ball and throw it at you, then you throw a ball at the ball your friend threw. If your ball hits it what happens? the force of the impact will cause both balls to bounce off eachother. sending your ball back towards you and your friends ball back toward them.

Same thing with a ABM the heads on intercept has the most likely hood to destroy the target because it will use the momentum of both missles to destroy the warhead. If you chase the target the only momentum you have is from the smaller chase missle and at most it will push the bigger missle not destroy it.

Like i said these missles in polland are no threat to Russia, unless Russia launches it missles towards Europe.

Why would Russia even say they were going to target Polland with Nukes if Poland excepted these missles unless Russia was planning on using Nukes against Poland.

Again when has the U.S. threatened to even target a nuke at some one?

That BS about the U.S. preemptive strikes including nukes everyone Knows the U.S. will only use nukes if someone uses NBC's against U.S. forces.

they have retreated from undisputed Georgia last week, in full accordance with the signed ceasefire treaty.

they signed the treaty when and they just left part of Georgia last week? And why would Russia insist that they be allowed peacekeepers to monitor the situation instead of requesting U.N. peace keepers? So they could hide the evidence of there wrong doing.

We can do this all night. you can say what i listed as fact isn't but yet you can't prove its not. that is because i have taken my information from the only sources that were reporting on it from the begining. The Russian Media. and we can argue until we are blue in the face about Russia being a baby about a missle shield that will protect europe not the U.S. from missles from rogue states.

Russia is just pissed because they didn't get a say in kosovo and they have made that perfectly clear. You rag on the U.S. for Iraq. But let me ask you something are you old enough to remember what was done durring the soviet union years?
are you ready to go back to the old soviet way of life?
I gaurantee anything the U.S. has done in iraq fails to compare to the oppression the average Russian suffered durring the Soviet union era!

Putin and Saakashvili want the old empire back and this raid into Georgia is just the beginning!

this Missle launch is just a ploy by putin and his puppet to get attention. They think Russia is this big Superpower and have all this influence, when in reality Russia only has influenece in Russia. Oh and in Europe because if Europe gets out of line they'll turn off the oil.

edit: fixed quote.

[edit on 9/20/2008 by Mercenary2007]

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
reply to post by manson_322

 

FACT Russia was amassing troops on the Border with Georgia before Georgia Entered the south to stop them from suceeding from Georgia.

Fact Russia was crossing in to the south and causing problems and making it look like south ossetians were doing it so Georgia would respond. why do you think Russia was so fast to respond with troops they knew something was going to happen because they had their hand in the cookie jar from the beginning!

FACT the missle defense Shield in poland will do nothing to stop Russia from launching its ICBM's. AS has been stated many times in numerous threads about the Georgia situation. is the missle defense shield to work Properly you have to launch the missles on a head to head intercept NOT FROM BEHIND the ICBM's

FACT Russia is the one that said they would use ICBM's against poland if they allowed the missle shield.

FACT Russia is currently in the process of empire building and threatening Nuclear war if anyone Interferes.

When was the last time the U.S. threatened to use nuKes? I'll give you a hint it was the cuban missle crisis when the Soviet Union Parked nuclear missles 90 miles from the coast of the U.S.

When was the last time the U.S. used Nukes? WWII to end the war.

Why don't you go back to what ever rock you crawled out from under and Spew your Anti american BS because no one here wants to hear it. we all can see who is doing what.

And you really have a lot to learn if you think that the average U.S. citizen can do anything about what the leaders of this country do.

And it just shows your ignorance when you lump the average Citizen with the decissions that are made by the government.

FACT Russia was amassing troops on the Border with Georgia before Georgia Entered the south to stop them from suceeding from Georgia.

BS..... this is not true, because if this was true , the beginning of the war would have been with VDV and elite Alfa units , not peacekeepers, it was the georgians who started , get your facts straight

When was the last time the U.S. used Nukes? WWII to end the war.

lol,and Russia never used them, seems USA is indeed genocidal ....

Spew your Anti american BS because no one here wants to hear it. we all can see who is doing what.

lol, like it or not , i am posting facts about the genocidal fascist US empire

lol, your USA is a diseased war criminal nation

Fact Russia was crossing in to the south and causing problems and making it look like south ossetians were doing it so Georgia would respond. why do you think Russia was so fast to respond with troops they knew something was going to happen because they had their hand in the cookie jar from the beginning!

more crap from you , FYI , south osssetia wanted independence from Georgia in 1991-92, Georgia tried genocide in 1992 also , but failed due to russian peacekeepers and now South ossetia is independent
the US sponsored KIA , caused destruction of serbia and then NATO attacked you hypocrite , forgot kosovo

Russia was so fast to respond with troops they knew something was going to happen

Russia was not fast , if it was fast , then Russians could have stopped genocide in south ossetia by georgian forces much faster

[edit on 21-9-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 21-9-2008 by manson_322]

I don't know much about the ABM shield or on how accurate your description is, but I know that U.S. placed it there for a reason. If it can't intercept missiles effectively, then why is U.S. so intent on placing it there, in spite of all the tension it is causing? I am sure there is more to it than both sides are making public. If U.S. wants it there so much, it has to have some level of effectiveness.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Like i said these missles in polland are no threat to Russia, unless Russia launches it missles towards Europe.

If they are meant to neutralize Russia's nuclear capabilities in any way, then it only makes sense that Russia sees them as a potential threat.

The originally ABM treaty between Russia and U.S. existed for a reason. U.S. was the one that cancelled it. So why is it that U.S. wants the system in Poland so badly?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Why would Russia even say they were going to target Polland with Nukes if Poland excepted these missles unless Russia was planning on using Nukes against Poland.

Nukes are targeted based on tactics. If Poland hosts the means to neutralize Russia's nuclear capabilities, then Poland automatically becomes a tactical target.

And targeting means nothing as long as no actual nuclear exchange occurs (and the chances of one are extremely slim). U.S. is known to be targetings its land-based systems at some places in Russia, and most likely other regions of the world.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Again when has the U.S. threatened to even target a nuke at some one?

U.S. is constantly targeting its nukes at someone. Others do the same thing. Do you think U.S. nukes don't have any preprogrammed destinations? That's all targeting is - programmed destinations. As long as ICBM existed, they programmed destinations.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
That BS about the U.S. preemptive strikes including nukes everyone Knows the U.S. will only use nukes if someone uses NBC's against U.S. forces.

You think its BS. Others around the world may view it as a distant possibility. Everyone who currently has ICBMs says that they are meant for retaliatory strikes. If everyone believed that, ABM system wouldn't be needed and there probability of nuclear war would be zero. Reality is that no one trusts anyone else. There is no reason why U.S. should be trusted anymore than anyone else.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
they signed the treaty when and they just left part of Georgia last week?

Go read the conditions of the treaty. It gave Russia a window of three weeks from the sign date to move out their troops. Russia completed the pull-out exactly as scheduled.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
And why would Russia insist that they be allowed peacekeepers to monitor the situation instead of requesting U.N. peace keepers?

Russian peacekeepers have been sanctioned in S Ossetia for over ten years now - by the UN. Before now, the UN never wanted to send its own peacekeepers there, and now they suddenly do. The locals do not trust UN however, and do not want it there. And they have a good reason for not trusting UN - if you recall during the Yugoslavia war UN peacekeepers have on multiple occasions turned a blind eye on continued ethnical cleansing. Just look up Srebrenica for example.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
So they could hide the evidence of there wrong doing.

UN observers have been allowed into the conflict zone last week. This week UN ministers have toured Tskhinvali and other areas of South Ossetia to see the devastation.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
a missle shield that will protect europe not the U.S. from missles from rogue states.

Tell me what rogue states currently possess either a nuclear weapon or an ICBM?

Iran doesn't. And even if it did - what in your opinion would make it a "rogue state"? Some see Israel as a rogue state. No one - not even Iran is dumb enough to use a nuclear weapon (unless they were in imminent danger of being invaded).

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Russia is just pissed because they didn't get a say in kosovo and they have made that perfectly clear.

So if Kosovo had the right to become independent, why doesn't South Ossetia or Abkhazia have the same right?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
You rag on the U.S. for Iraq. But let me ask you something are you old enough to remember what was done durring the soviet union years?

Well seeing as how I lived in Russia back under communism, I would say I am old enough and knowledgeable enough.

Why are you even talking about "Soviet Years"? What makes you think that Putin is trying to restore communism? Do you know what his policies are? Do you know the resoning and idealogy behind his policies? What does Soviet Union have to do with what is happening today. Russia has firmly established itself as a capitalist country.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
are you ready to go back to the old soviet way of life?

What would make one think that there is any chance of going back to the soviet way of life? How did Soviet Union even come into this issue? What does Soviet Union have to do with what is happening today? There is nothing whatsoever communist about Putin's or Medvedev's actions. The Russian Communist Party is firmly opposed to Putin.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
I gaurantee anything the U.S. has done in iraq fails to compare to the oppression the average Russian suffered durring the Soviet union era!

Again why are you comparing Soviet Union? Where does communism fit into all this?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Putin and Saakashvili want the old empire back and this raid into Georgia is just the beginning!

Do you even know who Saakashvili is? You are not making any sense. Are you saying that Russia and Saakashvili were on the same side playing the same game?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
this Missle launch is just a ploy by putin and his puppet to get attention.

They succeeded. At least as far as ATS is concerned. Attention is good. U.S. has been an attention whore since 9/11.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
They think Russia is this big Superpower and have all this influence, when in reality Russia only has influenece in Russia. Oh and in Europe because if Europe gets out of line they'll turn off the oil.

Well Europe is no small fry. It's a good start. U.S. is hardly very popular on the global stage itself.

i meant to say Medvedev not Saakashvili.

Ok Maloy we'll see what pans out with Putin and his rebuilding the old empire plans bring. Seems Funny that everyone outside of Russia can see That Putin has ambitions on rebuilding the old Empire. He just had to wait until he had the money to fund his conquest. Seems like he's getting close to having enough Money since he sent Russian troops into Georgia for real world training.

Wonder why most of the former client states are moving towards NATO and not towards Russia or staying Neutral? Because they all know Putin wants to rebuild the old empire.

If it can't intercept missiles effectively

Because it can effectively intercept missiles if used Properly with a head on intercept not a chase down the ICBM from behind intercept.

UN observers have been allowed into the conflict zone last week. This week UN ministers have toured Tskhinvali and other areas of South Ossetia to see the devastation.

wonder why they are letting them in now its been almost a month. in that time even i could make it look like i was completely innocent of a crime.

Tell me what rogue states currently possess either a nuclear weapon or an ICBM?

Iran doesn't. And even if it did - what in your opinion would make it a "rogue state"? Some see Israel as a rogue state. No one - not even Iran is dumb enough to use a nuclear weapon (unless they were in imminent danger of being invaded).

Right now Iran does top the list they just tested a missile that could reach europe. And i wouldn't put it past the leader of Iran to use a nuke if he thought it was even remotely possible an invasion was immanent.

Your right some do see ISreal as a rogue state. Because i do. i know that's a shock to you an american admitting he thinks that about isreal. Alot of the problems in the ME have been instigated by Isreal.

So if Kosovo had the right to become independent, why doesn't South Ossetia or Abkhazia have the same right?

They do have the right However they didn't follow the rules. and If Russia was worried about them not getting independence they why didn't they sponsor there claim for Independence in the U.N.? I'll tell you why So Russia could interfere with Georgia militarily Like they did. They won't get Independence

Well Europe is no small fry. It's a good start. U.S. is hardly very popular on the global stage itself.

I'd say the U.S. is a little bit more popular on the world stage right now than Russia is After this stunt.


[edit on 9/21/2008 by Mercenary2007]

reply to post by Mercenary2007

They do have the right However they didn't follow the rules. and If Russia was worried about them not getting independence they why didn't they sponsor there claim for Independence in the U.N.? I'll tell you why So Russia could interfere with Georgia militarily Like they did. They won't get Independence

Abkhazia and south ossetia are independent now and Russia has recognized it ....

I'd say the U.S. is a little bit more popular on the world stage right now than Russia is After this stunt.

no , rather it is russia has the moral highground now in nations like China and India and many , as our news services are not fed by western
propaganda BS

Because it can effectively intercept missiles if used Properly with a head on intercept not a chase down the ICBM from behind intercept.

they would intercept the nukes laucnhed in their boost phase , as some of the russian ICBM fields are in south european Russia , which makes the polish ABM useful

[edit on 21-9-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 21-9-2008 by manson_322]

Originally posted by manson_322
reply to post by Mercenary2007

 

They do have the right However they didn't follow the rules. and If Russia was worried about them not getting independence they why didn't they sponsor there claim for Independence in the U.N.? I'll tell you why So Russia could interfere with Georgia militarily Like they did. They won't get Independence

Abkhazia and south ossetia are independent now and Russia has recognized it ....

I'd say the U.S. is a little bit more popular on the world stage right now than Russia is After this stunt.

no , rather it is russia has the moral highground now in nations like China and India and many , as our news services are not fed by western
propaganda BS

[edit on 21-9-2008 by manson_322]

LOL you have No clue man China has not said a word about it they are staying neutral.

russia has the moral highground? Yeah ok maybe in your warped reality BUt here in the real world they Don't have the moral highroad!


"Abkhazia and south ossetia are independent now and Russia has recognized it ....' Like i said they won't be independent they will be part of the russian federation in a couple weeks. thats not independent.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007

russia has the moral highground? Yeah ok maybe in your warped reality BUt here in the real world they Don't have the moral highroad!

compared to your genocidal terroristic nation USa, it has a moral high ground

Abkhazia and south ossetia are independent now and Russia has recognized it ....' Like i said they won't be independent they will be part of the russian federation in a couple weeks. thats not independent.

right to self determination , if the South ossetia and abkhazia want to be part of russia , it will happen with a referendum , and yes, before also , south ossetia has said it wants to be part of russia

from Patrick Armstrong :

As to the most recent events, here is the actual chronology.

On Thursday August 7, 2008, President Saakashvili of Georgia went on TV and addressed his country. There had been outbreaks of shooting in South Ossetia for some weeks. Who started it this time? Who knows? Each side always points to something earlier and it all goes back to the early 1990s. Saakashvili declared a ceasefire, announced that he was sending someone to negotiate and then said this about Russia: “I have been proposing and I am proposing Russia act as a guarantor of South Ossetian autonomy within Georgia.” And “Georgia is a natural ally of Russia”. Saakashvili expressed his “love” for Ossetians. (here is a Georgian source for the text.)

On Friday, about 24 hours later, Saakashvili announced that Georgian forces controlled most of South Ossetia and had “liberated” most of the capital Tskhinvali. (And here is a Georgian source for that). As justification for this sudden change, Saakashvili claimed the ceasefire had not held and that Russian aircraft had attacked Georgian troops. But, obviously, the Georgian invasion had been long prepared – and was probably underway while he was making the first speech.

Two rather different statements in a mere 24 hours. This is what happened in the meantime: at about midnight Thursday/Friday local time Georgian forces opened fire, See this BBC film. In case you don’t know what you are watching, they are multiple-launch rocket systems, most likely what NATO designated BM-21s. They are extremely inaccurate and, by all reports, were fired into the town of Tskhinvali. According to the South Ossetia authorities, nearly one and a half thousand people, mostly civilians, have been killed. A strange way for Saakashvili to embody this moving thought from his first speech:

www.russiablog.org...

[edit on 21-9-2008 by manson_322]



trimmed external quote and tried untangling mixed up BB Code

[edit on 21/9/08 by masqua]

[edit on 21/9/08 by masqua]

reply to post by manson_322


Heres some truths the Russians conducted war games 2 months before there so called peace keeping mission. They practiced an attack on Georgia then never pulled back the troops they sent there for the war games. I know you have some twisted logic to show this was for humanitarian reasons . You go out of your way to believe what ever supports your views even if reality contradicts is.

Your hatred of the United States is obvious how ever why dont you come out of your dillusion and look at the real world. Every country does thing they should not have and make mistakes. You keep talking about genocide etc. Well since its obvious you like India lets point out there genocidal and imperical nature shall we?

India: Time to Deliver Justice for Atrocities in Punjab

Indian militia is accused of atrocities

Nepal: Indian atrocities continues, Susta residents demand security

Care to read these and we can get your spin on these atrocities?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007


russia has the moral highground? Yeah ok maybe in your warped reality BUt here in the real world they Don't have the moral highroad!

Who does have the moral highground?
From where I am sitting it looks like no one has the moral highground, but the moral lowground is pretty full.

Originally posted by dragonridr
Heres some truths the Russians conducted war games 2 months before there so called peace keeping mission.

The Russians conducted wargames to coincide with large scale U.S.-Georgia military exercises going on in Georgia at the same time.

Originally posted by dragonridr
They practiced an attack on Georgia

No they didn't. Where do you get off posting this stuff? Do you know what the exercise involved?

Originally posted by dragonridr
then never pulled back the troops they sent there for the war games.

Georgia never pulled back its troops that it began massing on the S Ossetia border since May. Russia stationed their troops as a precaution - a precaution that proved to be correct.

reply to post by maloy


Oh a lot of similarities between between exercises United states 1200 us soldiers and 800 Georgian. when the exercise was over the US troops left. The Russians About 8,000 servicemen took part in the training and Russian command had also dispatched the elite Pskov Airborne Division to take part in the exercise. About 700 combat vehicles and more than 30 aircraft were activated. The paratroopers acted together with the ground forces of the North Caucasus Military District, the Black Sea Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla, the border guard troops and the local Interior Ministry directorate. The servicemen cooperate with peacekeeping forces stationed in the conflict zone. Sounds to me that obviously expecting trouble and did these forces leave afterwards no they didn't kind of strange huh?

Bottom line the Russians conducted this exercise to show Georgia they control the areas of Georgia.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
i meant to say Medvedev not Saakashvili.

You still have not explained how Putin's or Medvedev's policies resemble communism in any way. You say that they are trying to rebuild the "empire". If you expect people to understand what you are talking about you need to back your arguements in some way.

What empire are they trying to rebuild? How are they trying to rebuild it? Where does Soviet Union even remotely fit into the picture?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Ok Maloy we'll see what pans out with Putin and his rebuilding the old empire plans bring.

You still have not gave one solid example of how Putin is "rebuilding the old empire". What is the "old empire" anyway?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Seems Funny that everyone outside of Russia can see That Putin has ambitions on rebuilding the old Empire.

U.S. and U.K. does not amount to everyone. Your "everyone" certainly doesn't include China, and India, and Iran, and Indonesia, and Syria, and most of Latin America, and France, and Italy, and Spain, and Germany, and Africa.

This is what puzzles me about Americans and some Europeans - they constantly think that their opinions account for "everyone". You do know that much of the world doesn't share America's sentiments right? This is a rather naive view of the world, which explains why 2/3 of the world views U.S. as the main global aggressor today.

If U.S. and its lapdogs U.K., Poland, and Baltics want to start something with Russia - then let them go right ahead. But do not expect the entire world to follow your new crusade.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
He just had to wait until he had the money to fund his conquest.

Money? Russian government has an annual budget surplus of over $100 billion, and has very considerable foreign reserves and no foreign debt. If Putin seriously wanted to start something, he could have done so already.

If what you say is true and Putin is trying to build some "empire", then explain to me why Russia didn't occupy all of Georgia, when it could have easily done so? Why did Russia show such a high degree of restraint?

You keep talking about this ubiqitous empire, yet you cannot answer any of these questions.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
he sent Russian troops into Georgia for real world training.

Oh my - he sent an entire contingent of 1,500 troops into Georgia. God damn - now an entire 0.5% of the Russian army has "real world training". Now the might 1,500 soldiers can march through Europe with ease. Long live the Russian Empire.

With the same logic I can say that Bush sent over 100,000 U.S. soldiers and mercenaries to Iraq for "real world training", in preparation for U.S. expanding its empire through the entire Middle East and on into Asia and then Russia.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Wonder why most of the former client states are moving towards NATO

Poland, Czech Republic, Baltics, Romania, and Georgia hardly amount to "most former client states".

What about Azerbaijan, Belarus, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan? Ukraine is against joining NATO as well - as demonstrated both by the Parliament and by 65% of the populations.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
and not towards Russia or staying Neutral?

All the states I mentioned above are staying neutral or moving towards Russia. These states combines have a territory 4 times larger than the new NATO-aligned states, and have a combined population 2.5 times larger.

Care to explain the "most" part?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Because they all know Putin wants to rebuild the old empire.

No because they float where the wind blows. The wind is blowing West, and Eastern Europe can smell the money. NATO = $$$ as far as they are concerned.

Once again - you still have not defined "old empire". For all I know you are talking about the Mongolian Horde, or the Roman Empire.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Because it can effectively intercept missiles if used Properly with a head on intercept not a chase down the ICBM from behind intercept.

So its settled - it can intercept missiles, and it has the capability to intercept Russian ICBMs. Given enough interceptors one can deduct that the system can in theory neutralize Russian ICBM capabilities.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
wonder why they are letting them in now its been almost a month.

First Western reporters and independent observers were allowed into Tskhinvalli a week after the fighting ended. They documented the damage done to the city and the confirmed civilian deaths in detail. Not to mention that Russian reporters were in the area since the fighting began, and documented the events in detail.

As for official UN observers - Russia, Georgia, and Sarkozy were working out the specifics before letting them in. Bureaucracy is how UN works - and some extensive time lag is not uncommon, in fact it is the norm. The time lag in Kosovo and Bosnia was far longer than 1 month.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Right now Iran does top the list they just tested a missile that could reach europe.

So what? Pakistan, India, China, Russia, U.S., Israel and a number of other countries also have ICBMs, with far greater capabilities than the Iranian missiles. Why do you think Iran is any threat to Europe? Why is Iran anymore of a threat to the world than say Israel or Pakistan or U.S.?

U.S. can fearmonger about Iran all it wants. The world already reiterated that it is not buying this crap - just like it didn't buy the BS about WMD's in Iraq.

At this point the U.S. is a far greater threat to the majority of people around the world than Iran is. In the last 7 years, U.S. waged wars that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, and subjected tens of millions of people to instability and chaos. U.S. has invaded two sovereign countries, and has threated to invade another one.

As far as I can see - Iran hasn't done nothing of the scale of devastation that U.S. caused. Neither has Russia. So I think the world should surround the U.S. with a buffer zone, complete with ABM systems, to prevent the U.S. from building its empire.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
And i wouldn't put it past the leader of Iran to use a nuke if he thought it was even remotely possible an invasion was immanent.

It is Iran's right to defend its sovereignty. Just like the right of any nation. As for your judgement of Ahmadinejad - I would first take a good look at Bush. Both are psychotic lunatics. One has a huge nuclear arsenal and the largest military in the world. Another doesn't.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Alot of the problems in the ME have been instigated by Isreal.

So in your opinion would Russia be justified if it places its own ABM system (S-400) in Syria and Iran to neutralize Israel's nuclear capabilities?

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
They do have the right However they didn't follow the rules.

Who sets the rules? What rules are you talking about?

Kosovo independence didn't go by the "rules". UN never approved of it. Russia and China were strictly against it. U.S. granted Kosovo independence - there were no rules involved.

Same goes for S Ossetia and Abkhazia. UN refused to look at the matter due to veto by U.S. So Russia went ahead and recognized them.

Neither Kosovo nor S Ossetia/Abkhazia got independence by the "rules".

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
and If Russia was worried about them not getting independence they why didn't they sponsor there claim for Independence in the U.N.?

They did - during the last week of August. The U.S. immediately vetoed Russia's resolution before it even got to be debated in the UN.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
I'll tell you why So Russia could interfere with Georgia militarily Like they did.

What is your point? Georgia started the war, with intent to kill many innocent civilians. Russia pushed Georgia back, and restored the status quo.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
They won't get Independence

I think you are behind on the current events. They already did. As far as S Ossetia and Abkhazia are concerned - they don't need UN, just Russia's approval.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
I'd say the U.S. is a little bit more popular on the world stage right now than Russia is After this stunt.

Are you serious? Do you know what the Chinese think? Or Indians? Or the rest of Asians? Or Africans? Or the French? Or the Germans? Or Latin Americans?

I think it will a bit harder to restore U.S.'s global popularity following the war in Iraq, than by throwing feces at Russia.

Take notice that it is only U.S. and a couple of Eastern European governments that barking at Russia. No one else is playing your game. Not even France or Germany.


Post any recent articles where China, India, Brazil, Germany, Indonesia, Malazia, or France recently (last few weeks) blamed Russia for the war. These countries together amount for well over 1/2 of the world's population. Let's see some proof.

reply to post by maloy


agreed with you maloy,

Post any recent articles where China, India, Brazil, Germany, Indonesia, Malazia, or France recently (last few weeks) blamed Russia for the war. These countries together amount for well over 1/2 of the world's population. Let's see some proof.

most newspapers in china and india ,particualy editorals in left wing and right wing newspapers have praised Russia for using force restrainingly in the war , though the indian express did criticize Russia over giving freedom to So and abhazia , it felt that it could be destabising in Caucusus and Russia should have sponsored regime change to a pro-rusian govt in georgia, instead of SO independence ......

Originally posted by dragonridr
when the exercise was over the US troops left.

Not the 100 or so military advisors U.S. had in the country as recently as the start of the war. U.S. affirmed this fact.

Originally posted by dragonridr
The Russians About 8,000 servicemen took part in the training and Russian command had also dispatched the elite Pskov Airborne Division to take part in the exercise.

They took part in training inside the North Caucasus Military District of Russia. Training exercises such as these are held in the region every year, since the Chechen wars. What's your point?

During the war in South Ossetia, far less than 8,000 Russia troops crossed into Georgia. Those that did, weren't even the same ones that took part in this exercise for the most part. The main battalions that crossed into Georgia were the Zapad and Vostok which were rushed from Checheny on August 8th. The Pskov Airborne Division didn't play a role in the combat operations either. What are you trying to prove.

Originally posted by dragonridr
About 700 combat vehicles and more than 30 aircraft were activated.

They were already activated since the early 90's, and were never deactivated. This and other equipment has always been stationed in the region

Originally posted by dragonridr
The paratroopers acted together with the ground forces of the North Caucasus Military District

Ok - what is the point of you breaking down Russia's military strategy? Are you surprised at how organized Russian forces were? What did you want them to do - shuffle into Georgia as a disorganized mess and start throwing rocks and sticks everywhere?

Yes this war has shown that Russia is better militarily prepared than back in 1990's. Tactics have changed a lot since then.

Originally posted by dragonridr
the Black Sea Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla

What? Caspian flotilla? Are you just listing all Russian military assets? What does that prove?

Originally posted by dragonridr
The servicemen cooperate with peacekeeping forces stationed in the conflict zone.

Peacekeepers were not part of that exercise. The exercises was held in Russia, not in South Ossetia.

And when the war started they didn't cooperate closely with the peacekeepers. The peacekeepers were fired upon by Georgians on the evening of August 7th. 10-20 peacekeepers were killed that night. The peacekeepers' headquarters radioed Vladikavkaz for immediate military assistance right away. They didn't get a response for over 24 hours, and received no help from the Russian military.

Originally posted by dragonridr
Sounds to me that obviously expecting trouble and did these forces leave afterwards no they didn't kind of strange huh?

Sure they were expecting something - Georgia was massing troops on the border since May 2008. Georgian UAVs were an obvious clue that something is being planned. By the end of July Georgie had over 20,000 troops near the border with South Ossetia.

Originally posted by dragonridr
Bottom line the Russians conducted this exercise to show Georgia they control the areas of Georgia.

What are you talking about? The exercise wasn't held in South Ossetia or Abkhazia. It was held inside Russia.

People do realize that the New Soviets have and have had dedicated ABM sites all around Moscow for decades right? aka the Gorgon.

Originally posted by FredT
People do realize that the New Soviets

Who are "New Soviets"? Anymore creative names for Russia? Maybe "Czardom Reincarnate", or the "Eurasian Invasion", or "Disneyland of Marx and Engels", or the "Bolshevik Layer", or the "Communist Manifestation"?

Whoever "New Soviets" are, I just hope they throw better parties than the Communists. The Communist Party was more of a drag than a party.

Originally posted by FredT
have and have had dedicated ABM sites all around Moscow for decades right? aka the Gorgon.

Yes, and U.S. has ABM systems on the U.S. soil. No one is protesting domestic ABM systems. It is the basing of one country's ABM on foreign soil that is a matter of concern.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy


The Russian government wanted this fight they did everything they could to get Georgia to commit to a fight. April 16 2007 a decree authorizing the Russian government to strengthen diplomatic and aid links with Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Georgia’s pro-Moscow separatist provinces.

Later that month, Russia deployed 1,500 additional troops, some heavily armed, to its "peacekeeping" contingent in Abkhazia without Georgia’s consent. The move was an express violation of a 1994 cease-fire agreement ending a brief but grievous civil war between Abkhaz and Georgian fighters.

In the weeks that followed, Georgia accused Russia of shooting down unmanned drone aircraft conducting reconnaissance flights over Abkhazia. Russian military aircraft were also detected violating Georgian airspace near the separatist territory.

In June, Russia stoked tensions yet again by deploying unarmed troops to Abkhazia to rebuild a rail link between the cities of Sukhumi and Ochamchira. Moscow argued the move was a humanitarian gesture meant to improve the territory’s decrepit transportation infrastructure.

"We heard statements that the Russian railroad troops that had entered Abkhazia a couple of months ago were there on a humanitarian mission. And now we know the truth about why those forces were there. It was to rebuild the railroad to allow ammunition and other military supplies to aid a Russian invasion," Bryza told reporters in Tbilisi on August 11

Writing in the online newspaper "Yezhednevny zhurnal," Andrei Illarionov likewise argues that the invasion of Georgia "had been long prepared and successfully executed." Illarionov is a onetime adviser to former Russian president and current Prime Minister Vladimir Putin who has since emerged as a fierce Kremlin critic.

Now the truth the Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili fell into a trap partly because he's an idiot. He was even warned not to do this by the defense department. However he figured he could get world opinion behind him yelling the sky is falling. And this would end the disputed territories, didn't work go figure. But that does not negate the fact Russia’s policies over the past several years caused this war. And for this they bear responsibility.
Does that clarify my points i made to you now?