Evolution Cannot be Proven

reply to post by Good Wolf


That was a weird video I don't know what it said but I can deduce from the images.
I was reminded by seeing the chemical structures in the video that symmetries are inherent in nature. It's weird how atoms and molecules arrange themselves and we can even use mathematics to predict their arraignments, structures, geometries, etc. Higher symmetries build upon other symmetries, and so on.
It was thought that abstract algebra had no use in real world. What use do we have for rings, groups, fields, etc.? It was until quantum physics that abstract algebra had application.
It seems that the universe is an self-organizing organism, and that includes evolution.
Yet, I feel that there is something missing. I think that there is a intelligent force, IMHO

Yea, probably because they are aimed at creationists who use fallacious and/or strawman arguments to attack abiogenesis. I also must admit I just enjoying mastery the youtube video insertion function .


What ever jim scott is studying at university, it really doesn't seem to be science. Considering his demonising of science and bible bashing, I'm gunna say he must be doing theology. And there in lies the problem

From what I have researched there are many different evolution theories. What I am seeing here used and being refered to is strictly biological evolution. From the definitions I have found so far and has been pointed out by Good Wolf this is biological evolution.


From wikipedia:

In biology, evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. The genes that are passed on to an organism's offspring produce the inherited traits that are the basis of evolution. Mutations in genes can produce new or altered traits in individuals, resulting in the appearance of heritable differences between organisms, but new traits also come from the transfer of genes between populations, as in migration, or between species, in horizontal gene transfer. In species that reproduce sexually, new combinations of genes are produced by genetic recombination, which can increase the variation in traits between organisms. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population.

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en.wikipedia.org...(term)


One of the main sources of confusion and ambiguity in the creation-evolution debate is the definition of evolution itself. In the context of biology, evolution is simply the genetic change in populations of organisms over successive generations. However, the word has a number of different meanings in different fields, from evolutionary computation to chemical evolution to sociocultural evolution to stellar and galactic evolution. It can even refer to metaphysical evolution, spiritual evolution, or any of a number of evolutionist philosophies. When biological evolution is mistakenly conflated with other evolutionary processes, it can result in errors such as the claim that modern evolutionary theory says anything about abiogenesis or the Big Bang.[1]



Biological evolution does not concern itself with the start of life on this planet period.



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So the OP needs to be clarified to specify what definition of evolution is being questioned. Until it is decided which evolution theory or if it is all evolution theories being questioned It is difficult to try and have a real debate without getting confused. I will go on record one more time just for kicks and say I belive in creation/biological evolution. Some very good ideas and points of view on here just a little too much emotion and anger in some posts.

Originally posted by savagediver
One of the main sources of confusion and ambiguity in the creation-evolution debate is the definition of evolution itself.

I think you'll find that there is a lot less confusion than you think. Creationists, in the christian sense, argue for genesis, which in turn means arguing against anything that says it didn't happen. Such things included biology, geology, palaeontology, cosmology and even physics. Evolution is just one of their targets.

chemical evolution

stellar and galactic evolution

These are not scientific terms that I am familiar with, I believe them to be more creationist made up words like 'evolutionists". That's something that they label us. I've only heard these terms in Hovind's videos.

I'll also point out that creationists also use the micro/macro evolution terms a lot. These are terms that have been meaningless to science for decades, thanks to genetics. They believe in microevolution but not macroevolution despite the fact that they are fundamentally the same thing. The only distinction is timescale, that is much microevolution = macroevolution.

Hi Good Wolf,
Really enjoyed the first You Tube video, very explanatory. Seems a lot has happened since the 60's when I went to univ.
Thanks for the info.

reply to post by Good Wolf



Another misconception. I believe in Christ to be true but I do not believe the creation of the world in 6 days (human days).As a matter of fact I dont get into semantics with alot of the bible. I take what I consider the basic truths and wisdom and believe on them. That is just my belief and will not change because of an internet forum. I also belive in biological evolution to an extent. Please take note of this about biological evolution.




Evolutionary biology explains biotic changes in terms of internal processes and gradual development as a natural progression of previously existing lifeforms. Evolution neither denies nor requires a role for divine intervention.

en.wikipedia.org...

As for chemical evolution and stellar and galactic evolution they are scientific terms not created by a creationist . They are terms from scientists.

Chemical evolution:
www.grisda.org...
library.thinkquest.org...
www.answers.com...
www.chem.duke.edu...
www.asa3.org...


stellar and galactic evolution:

sci.esa.int...
stellar.dartmouth.edu...
www.tufts.edu...


Those links are from purely scientific perspective , nothing to do with creationists so it will be safe for you to look at. Shouldnt be anything there to offend your beliefs as it is all scientific.








[edit on 21-9-2008 by savagediver]

[edit on 21-9-2008 by savagediver]

No problem. There are loads more on youtube that set it out really clearly.

May I suggest nz.youtube.com...

Good series.

Edit: fixed link. Problem was I put a '.' on the end of the link but wasn't supposed to be past of the link.

[edit on 9/22/2008 by Good Wolf]

Link wont work for me Wolf. Gave me up an error , guess these guys are a bit behind on the evolutionary scale


500 Internal Server Error
Sorry, something went wrong.

A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation. Please report this incident to customer service.


Will check it out whenever the link gets fixed , thanks.

I like these threads... they happen to be one of the few thread types on ATS that fall within my area of education.

Before I get into the scientific evidence supporting evolutionary theory, let's get this out of the way: whether or not you believe in Intelligent Design, it is not a falsifiable concept. There is no way of testing it or disproving it. It does not fit the basic definition of a hypothesis.

In fact, there are mountains of evidence to suggest that humans (as well as every other organism on the planet) are descended from a common ancestor. Even the very mechanism of inheritance, that is the arrangement of nucleotides known as genes, which compose molecules of DNA (chromosomes), is present in all organisms, from single-celled prokaryotic lifeforms like bacteria to multi-cellular organisms like trees, reptiles, humans, etc. This indicates that all species, even from different orders, phylums, and kingdoms are fundamentally related.

Our genes determine everything about who we are (or, at least, what we have to start with- doubtlessly childhood experiences and other environmental factors have a role), from our physical form to modes of behavior. And we share 95-99% or our DNA, the system of inheritance present in all life, with primates. This strongly suggests that we share a common ancestor with them.

Furthermore, many species have vestigial organs from previous evolutionary forms. Whales, for example, have remnants of a hipbone that was from an earlier land-walking ancestor. Snakes also have such a bone. If species were created separately by god, he sure is tricky... making it seem as though they evolved.

The evidence supporting evolution is staggering, and out of all the thousands of research scientists working in the natural sciences, essentially all of them accept evolution as the source of biodiversity on the planet.

I believe Irreducible Complexity has been debunked enough in this thread, so I don't need to devote any more explanation to it.

On a related note, ID is no less than an organized movement with the aim of attacking science and replacing it with a different form of religion. Please see this thread for details:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 21-9-2008 by SamuraiDrifter]

[edit on 21-9-2008 by SamuraiDrifter]

Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by the_watcher
In the beginning God created all living things.

So this "God" existed external to time? That makes no sense. Think about it. In order for a thing to exist, it must occupy at least some point within the framework of time. Sounds to me like you're just making up words.

i've always thought of it like ever present. God is a time traveller. he's present in the past. present in the future and present in the present. sorta like saying, wherever you go, there you are. must be some kind of multiple dimensions thing

hi people brothers and sisters and even them that are of both sex's, the creation lol why are people so caught up in trying to prove that god made this planet??who knows he could've??and why do we go against the whole big bang theory and evolution thing??maybe god has something to do with that aswell, i reckon we should start putting our heads together, dont you think??, stop arguing and trying to prove one another wrong, think about it we know bugger all about the planet we are living on at the moment so what makes us think we know about the creation of the planet, if you ask me all we have are a bunch of theories and no facts, no facts of god creating this world no facts of evolution even happening no facts of the big bang theory?? if we just carried on with life and let the truth unfold itself maybe well get somewhere??MAYBE?, one could say god is an entity living outside our time frame and even possibly outside our universe?, i dont know?, or even this one we are a sphere inside another sphere(the universe), and again i say,I DONT KNOW, but there are many possibilities out there, its just that we are all competing against one another to see who has the best theory, kinda childish if you ask me, there are numerous questions out there about every topic you can think of like, how did spirituality come into play?,ghosts?,aliens?,mythical beasts?,GOD?,jesus?, oh the list goes on, forgive me if none of this makes any sense but im just speaking what is on my mind at the moment lol,anyway all im trying to say is WE KNOW ABSOLUTLY NOTHING,please dont take this to offence and another thing i aint here to argue just to get a message out, i have my own theories about the beginning but hey dont we all, and another thing im not going against everyones theories im just adding to them lol, well i have nothing against anyone im just another speck on the planet just like the rest of us, me personally i believe in GOD and i believe that everything is here for GOD's purpose, and that purpose? well i dont know lol i aint GOD, but i know he will have mercy on everybody when he comes and yes i do believe he is coming....some day soon, so yeh just keep him in mind, i mean you can carry on doing what you do but always know that if you need someone to turn to just call out to him he will listen if your intentions are right(never test the lord GOD almighty), trust me he will, i never believed in GOD at all untill one particular day...but thats another story,
so peace be da journey and GOD bless you all.......

I've just realised Intelligent Design must be true after all how idiotic is to believe that a Great Dane and a Chihuahua are simply slight genetic alterations of the same species. What utter nonsense. Great Danes and Chihuahua's have always existed like all life on this planet......

reply to post by malcr


Yeah right, mate. And I'm the Queen of Sheba.

reply to post by Good Wolf


You need to work on your sarcasm detector, my friend. I'm pretty sure that was what that post was. Hence the *wink*

[edit on 22-9-2008 by JaxonRoberts]

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Maybe, it sounded like religious gibberish to me. However if i'm wrong, it'll be the 3rd time lol

reply to post by Nohup


The idea that you find as non-sense, that God may exist outside of time, is because we have finite minds, not infinite ones. We can look at ants being busy in their work, but the ant is hardly aware of our existence except by our shadow or some fellow ants that have been squashed. An ant's view that may reject our existence only shows that it cannot think outside of its limited POV (point of view). Can you honestly say that you know everything that exists in the universe?

Originally posted by SamuraiDrifter
In fact, there are mountains of evidence to suggest that humans (as well as every other organism on the planet) are descended from a common ancestor.

I like your contribution. Since this topic falls into your area of education, you wouldn't mind looking over my thread, please.

On a related note, ID is no less than an organized movement with the aim of attacking science and replacing it with a different form of religion.

Stein's docofilm 'Expelled' is a good example of this. Amazingly he seems to think that evolution is somehow supposed to explain not only biodiversity, but the origin of life, the origin of matter and even gravity! WTF?!

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
the ant is hardly aware of our existence except by our shadow or some fellow ants that have been squashed. An ant's view that may reject our existence

Ant's can't use deduction or any other logic based reasoning. So it aint much good comparing us to ants or any other lesser-minded creature. We can, at least contemplate God and have a rudimentary understanding of it (if it exists at all). If God made the universe, there will be clues within that will tell us about him and his character, and so far it defies most mainstream religions view of him.

[edit on 9/22/2008 by Good Wolf]

Nothing can be proven because none of it is real. knowledge? no. perception? yes. evolution, religion, pretty much everything we "know" is just how we perceive the world to be. has anyone considered the possibility that humans simply cannot grasp how the universe works? to believe that our "knowledge" is true is to be ignorant

I can't prove Evoloution no more than you can prove ID. You trusting a book that was written from stories that were first passed on generation by generation by word of mouth. (I am talking of the first books of the old testament)

Adam and Eve were the very first inhabitants. Cain kills Abel, Cain is abolished. Cain goes to another city and partakes a wife? Where did these people come from? Genesis states he created Adam and Eve, not complete cities of people.

I do beleive that some of the bible is true. It has been proven historically by written history that parallel stories from the bible and archeology.

I don't buy and can't swallow ID. It is complete horse dung. I use to be a Christain. It is people like you so blinded by your beliefs that made me sick of it.

Your talking about people that lived thousands of years ago. Some didn't even have any education. People that thought the world was flat and solar or moon eclipses made the crap themselves in fear.

So pardon me if I don't buy it. I just hate people that try to sell it. I believe that God could be real. I just don't put much stock into every word the bible says. Does this make me a bad person. If so, So be it. I can't in any logical way believe God made everything is seven days. Maybe in his timeline, but not that of mortals like us.

Your talking about a God that says if your right eye offends you pluck it out. I say go see a therapists.

For ID:
God is defined as all powerful. Hence, he can do anything. Hence, he can make the world and the universe look just like it does --- aged. Biblical support: Adam was made aged, the garden was aged, etc.
For Theology:
The world was made aged with fossils, layers, etc. for choice. It the world were made to only look like it were 6000 years old, made in six days, there would be no choice but to believe in God as advertised. God likes to give choice, as in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, hence he tests you to see if you love him. God loves to test you "for the Lord proveth you, to see if you will love the Lord thy God".
For evolution: Scientific evidence shows an aged universe, and natural selection. Scientific evidence shows it is possible to create life without God.

CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE (as God mentioned to the children of Israel going into the promised land, giving them a choice).

Best bet: Either there is a God or there is not. If I believe there is, I am safe after death. If I believe there is not, I am not safe after death, but I don't have to answer to any God in this life.

Death is a lot longer than life. I'll take God for the dirt nap.