U.S. Senate Passes $612 Billion Defense Spending Bill

reply to post by WestPoint23

I know. Least I mention the USAF and USN, both of which suffered the most, in terms of what happened under Clinton.

The only things that suffered under Clinton were one blue dress.....and his marriage.
Crisis????
The only crisis going on is the fact that the average American has to decide whether to eat or put gas in their car....and you don't see why we don't care about " high end military systems"?????

Stop picking fights.....and we won't need " high end military systems".

reply to post by kawz1

The only thing this corrupt criminal government is going to have to worry about at this point is its own citizens becoming so freaking fed up with the B.S. that they start to take this current government down peice by piece.
I think that in modern terms, applied to current conditions, the definition of the term patriot, will soon be: A citizen of the United States Of America, who will be heretofor referred to as a terrorist because of his or her disgust with the criminals that run this country, who has taken it upon his or herself to attempt to rid this great nation of the enormous criminal enterprise that controls it, preferably by legal or peaceful means, but upon the failure of diplomacy, by any and all means neccesary.
I guess that makes me a patriot. So be it.
I bet there are alot of patriots out there.
And yes, we know we are being watched.

reply to post by WestPoint23


I don't think anyone is questioning the importance of the military. I don't think anyone is questioning the fact that we need to adequately fund the military. We do, however, question the amount of funding needed to sustain our place at the table. We out-gun/nuke/tech the entire world combined. How much do we really need to remain number 1?

If you have 100 friends behind you armed with automatic weapons, and I have 10 of my friends behind me with 9mm's, I will most likely not attack you. If you have 75 friends w/ auto weapons and I had 15 friends w/ 9mm's, I still wouldn't attack you. I know that analogy is not exact, but it does scratch the surface of some of the reasons why people are upset with such a high budget.

Perhaps the amount is so high due to projected aggression/development of other nations/groups. Sure, we should prepare for these things. Military preparation, however, is only one piece of that puzzle. We should be investing in ways to solve some of these problems in non-combative ways. I believe education is one of these ways. Healthcare for all US citizens, and eventually for all people could go a long way as well.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
[ If there's one thing I'd pay higher taxes for, it's military spending.



[edit on 18-9-2008 by WestPoint23]

Warmongers make me sick and I'm glad I don't live in the U.S. It used to be the land of milk and honey, now it's the land of blood and money.
Fund the killers, meanwhile ignore the education and health of the citizens. Yeah, it seems entirely fair and reasonable.
Watch the U.S. fall, as I'm sure it will, and watch it take others down with it.
Pox americana

Originally posted by Grafilthy
Crisis????

Yes crisis, the average age of major combat USAF systems will soon be over 30 years old, with some systems developed under Eisenhower still in service! They are reaching their structural limit and ability to continue receiving upgrades. Some are currently flying with restrictions and would be unsafe to fly in a major war with a near peer adversary. Not to mention each year they spend more and more time in maintenance and require more and more resources to keep flightworthy, while losing their combat edge. We are not developing enough new systems to replace these legacy ones, and in some cases we're not developing news ones at all. That might be ok now fighting piss off terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq but that wont last forever. Within a decade or two there WILL be a new (or several) conventional military power which will rivals ours. If we continue to underfund key programs there will be a day of reckoning.

Originally posted by Grafilthy
The only crisis going on is the fact that the average American has to decide whether to eat or put gas in their car...

And the only reason the average American has to decide between those two and not worry about foreign bombers, missiles etc... is because we have a capable military. I take it you were not around during the Cold War, neither was I. However I do not want my children to live in a similar future environment.

Originally posted by Grafilthy
Stop picking fights.....and we won't need " high end military systems".

Too simplistic. Unfortunately even if we stop developing our military and expanding our influence around the world someone else will take up the slack. There always has to be a global power, I'd rather it's us and not someone else.

reply to post by WestPoint23

Look at the post above yours. That is the way the world feels about us. Why then, would so many proud Americans feel so ashamed?

Pity they can't take stock and realize that our own citizens should be more important than other countries citizens. Take 200 billion of that 800, and they could make huge dents in major issues within our own country. I wish our government would get their priorities in order.

Originally posted by manson_322
this is funny ..... americans are getting poorer day by day , losing homes and being forced by their genocidal fascist govt to bailout corporations for the blunders their directors made , and yet , fund the MIC like theres no tomorrow

man, looking at the conditions that USA today has, I have one thing to say, Soviet union of 70's looks like paradise , compared to today's USA

in 70's there was no poverty or starvation in USSR , no one was poor , everybody had equal income ,everyone had a home, people worked 10-12 hours max..

todays america , many people are homeless, penniless, many are struggling to make ends meet , and have to work 14-16 hours on multiple jobs to make ends meet

Unfortunately it's sad but true!

But I guess to the people in washington, the U.S. citizen is now looked apon as a living breathing robot of sorts...we might as well just not eat at all, have each person of the house hold work 3 jobs 24 hr days, and do nothing else with our lives but obey and serve our Federal Government's wishes...

Nothing will change It seem's...they might as well put the RFID chip right in my brain already so I don't have to care about anything....

Here's a brilliant idea!!! We are pretty much up the proverbial creek without a paddle so lets spend some more money! Why not, we are going down the gurgler lets go out in style

I know, lets just give everyone their own money-printing press, that'll save heaps of time

I was around for most of the cold war. And after looking back on it all, what did we do? We forced The Soviet Union to spend almost everything they had to try and keep up with us in the arms race. And when we beat them, our officials stood around patting themselves on the back for winning it. Now, what has happened since then? After the cold war, we did cut the arms budget for a little while. I may be wrong in this, but it started to pick up big time from the Persian Gulf War on, and has not stopped growing from that period on. Now, on top of a high priced war budget, we have a government and a Federal Reserve bank who wants to bailout every big corperation who is folding or showing signs of folding, while the everyday high tax paying joe has to keep picking up the tab for it and has to watch this country go down the drain, and for fear of being called unpatriotic, has to keep his mouth shut.

Call me crazy, but I think Russia knows us better then we know ourselves. How can I think that? It`s easy. While we have been running around trying to live up to the role we gave ourselves being the world police, Russia has picked themselves up and dusted themselves off, and went back to reforming their military. They knew that all this spending would catch up to us one day, and it has. Now look at us, trillions deeper in debt, and a dollar that is worth less then the ink printed on it. Now our great government wants to add billions more on top of that over sized debt for more war materials.

Yes, we may have a big military force for the time being, but how much more money can joe afford to hand over for all of this, before he is left without a home and food altogether? It`s one thing being patriotic, but putting yourself and your family into this kind of bind, is nothing but immoral and just plain senseless. Nothing like telling your kids and grandkids to get prepared to help pay this off. What`s next for us, maybe making 10 years old the legal age to work? The way things are going, it wouldn`t surprise me.

[edit on 18-9-2008 by FiatLux]

You know, I'm sorry, but no one is thinking about the numbers. This means that ever man, woman, and child will pay 2,000 for this year in taxes. If you look at the average tax base, then you are looking at 5,000 per taxable person. Are you serious? You would pay 5k, to upgrade the military? The average american only makes 45,000 a year. that means you want to pay ruffly 10% of your income, alone to just funding the military? Your crazy, and realistically, this is not a good solution. All this number does is continue to contribute to deficits, which weaken our economy, weaken our political clout, and weaken our insulation to the whims of other governments who OWN that debt. I'm sorry, but the current situation is unsustainable, and the only thing your doing is making it worse for your kids, not better.

When the U.S. first developed, we had no ties to foreign countries, we were Isolationist. It is because of foreign policies that coincide with empiralism that we have expanded and blouted our budget, and defense spending in order to maintain, and expand these policies.

No, I'm sorry, but we need to have a balanced budget law. Gaurenteeing a balanced budget. We need to have a cap of 15% taxation, total, this includes local, state, and federal. Of that amount, the states should determine how much they want to contribute to the military. A small trained united USA military, responsible for first response actions. We should not have constant mobilization, we should not have a massive military, and lastly we shouldn't have GUTTED our manufacturering, that forced the price to produce items way up.

Things need to change, this budget is one of them, instead of 612 billion, it should have been 20 billion. We should have closed ALL foreign bases, moved all personnel back to the u.s., withdrawn from NATO, and let Europe develop as they should within the E.U.

just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by Grafilthy
Crisis????

Yes crisis, the average age of major combat USAF systems will soon be over 30 years old, with some systems developed under Eisenhower still in service! They are reaching their structural limit and ability to continue receiving upgrades. Some are currently flying with restrictions and would be unsafe to fly in a major war with a near peer adversary. Not to mention each year they spend more and more time in maintenance and require more and more resources to keep flightworthy, while losing their combat edge. We are not developing enough new systems to replace these legacy ones, and in some cases we're not developing news ones at all. That might be ok now fighting piss off terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq but that wont last forever. Within a decade or two there WILL be a new (or several) conventional military power which will rivals ours. If we continue to underfund key programs there will be a day of reckoning.

Originally posted by Grafilthy
The only crisis going on is the fact that the average American has to decide whether to eat or put gas in their car...

And the only reason the average American has to decide between those two and not worry about foreign bombers, missiles etc... is because we have a capable military. I take it you were not around during the Cold War, neither was I. However I do not want my children to live in a similar future environment.

Originally posted by Grafilthy
Stop picking fights.....and we won't need " high end military systems".

Too simplistic. Unfortunately even if we stop developing our military and expanding our influence around the world someone else will take up the slack. There always has to be a global power, I'd rather it's us and not someone else.

Is mesmerising reading the the rantings of someone with such utter conviction in their own beliefs no matter how far off the mark they may be - your comments are trumped up assumptions, embellished clichés and ingrained stereo types at the very, very best.

I find it mind numbing that some one whom by their own admission was not alive during the cold war (making you still a teenager) can pontificate with such authority, while for those of us who specialise in this field are left gobsmacked at just har far off the mark your comments are.
The simple reality is that their has never EVER been any serious credible threat to the US beyond that which it creates for itself - this is a FACT.

I did live though the cold war, I have specialised in this area at the highest level academically and otherwise - you have no consideration of the machinations of International Relations - none. The military aspect is a manifestation of this - NOT a means in itself.

As for your comments regarding the age of equipment please read the Three Trillion Dollar War. Even better get on google earth and go visit diego garcia.......

fairdinkum - at least be honest at simply state that you think this might be the case - but you DONT REALLY KNOW - as you dont. Your authoritative stance is totally misplaced and unwarranted.

Originally posted by audas
Is mesmerising reading the the rantings of someone with such utter conviction in their own beliefs no matter how far off the mark they may be - your comments are trumped up assumptions, embellished clichés and ingrained stereo types at the very, very best.

By all means please point out the errors in my assertions, I'd be more than happy to debate you in the Aircraft forum if you'd like. I'm not the only one with such views, even the top military and civilian leadership in this case say the exact same thing.

Originally posted by audas
I find it mind numbing that some one whom by their own admission was not alive during the cold war (making you still a teenager) can pontificate with such authority, while for those of us who specialise in this field are left gobsmacked at just har far off the mark your comments are.

I don't consider being four years old upon the formal collapse of the U.S.S.R. as having lived during the Cold War. In any case, if I may ask, what field do you specialize in? If it's military history I'd love to hear your likewise, I'm sure, well pontificated argument.

Originally posted by audas
The simple reality is that their has never EVER been any serious credible threat to the US beyond that which it creates for itself - this is a FACT.

For a man claiming to know so much you sure made one heck of an absolute statement. I don't suppose you wrote FDR's speech on fearing fear?

Originally posted by audas
As for your comments regarding the age of equipment please read the Three Trillion Dollar War. Even better get on google earth and go visit diego garcia.......

I know perfectly well where Diego Garcia is and what its function entails. Simply throwing out irrelevant comments like the two quoted above is quite pointless. My gripe about our current equipment is only half monetary related. The other half has to do with policy from the civilian leadership dictating future needs of our Armed Force over the objections of US Commanders.

Originally posted by audas
fairdinkum - at least be honest at simply state that you think this might be the case - but you DONT REALLY KNOW - as you dont. Your authoritative stance is totally misplaced and unwarranted.

If anyone here claims to hold the absolute truth on US foreign policy I'd rate them right up there with the Flat Earth Society. So I have no problem accepting that my interpretation of world events might be incorrect. However I wont budge one inch from my view regarding the current state of the Military.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
However I wont budge one inch from my view regarding the current state of the Military.

From an 'Auslanders' point of view, that is precisely the problem. There are those who are 'sold' the gung-ho line, hook and sinker and won't budge from it and therefore they propagate the image of the U.S (I say U.S. because there is more to America than the U.S. and that just smacks of trumped up Imperialism) as a Bully, force-feeding Democracy (is it really, or is it Corporate Fascism?) with the barrel of a gun as the leverage. It must be something to do with the number of small penises (or perceived lack of size and insecurity) in the U.S., because coupled with big cars, big guns, supersize me and viagra there seems to be one hell of an obsession....and it travels the world as 'Freedom of Choice' and 'the Beverley Hills 90210 syndrome' where keeping up with the Pitts and Cruises appears to be a national pastime.

So, what right do I have to be posting in a thread about internal issues? Well, much the same right as the exporting of Culture or the effects of U.S. Foreign Policy has me and my World. I accept that we are living in the times of American (U.S.) Empire, but I don't have to like it, and therefore I wish to make my dissension known.

[edit on 18/9/08 by ChChKiwi]

If only all the militaries of the world would disappear....if only

Text Blackreply to post by manson_322

The reason alot of people in America are poor is simply because they dont work.They want big daddy goverment to bail them out if they cant make it on their own and then complain about the goverment if they dont get what they want.Then we hear stuff like this war is illegal and our armed forces
are just a bunch of mercenaries.Now that is sickening,although I do say that we should end this war soon but just dont pack our bags and leave. And so what if this is an illegal war, just because its legal doesnt make it right.

This is obscene. We can't afford health care for almost 50,000,000 of our citizens but a few extra bombers and a base what the hell?

This is exactly why when the fire works were going off on the 4th of July I stayed home. Nothing to be proud of with a military budget this high while there are hungry, growing homeless, decaying infrastructure, lack of funding for adequate education and no health coverage for almost a third of the population. But no problem on funding some bombers or a $60,000.00 fireworks show (and we do this in countless cities and communities across America every year...figure the expense out that). Unbelievable!

Thats a shocking amount of money during our present bank crisis,mind you shares in america are rising fast now so the morning BBC say!

warmongers,got to love them



I think the film Shoot Em Up sums it up by saying you can be a Pussy and have a gun.America for far too long has been pushing people around the world,its not surprising people push back!
Americas Neo con leaders are the pussys,the troops are their guns

Oh boy, oh boy this is just too good.

I feel that american war supporters are just a bunch of big mouth. In my opinion it is not those people who actually keep the economy running.
Personally I'm fed up by them, all they're doing is spend spend spend and gloat gloat gloat. And... I know it's not impossible to find a willing hand to do america's "dirty jobs" with far less ruckus.

$600 billion is not a small amount, they'll definitely need foreign money to help finance this.

What a wonderful country you guys have Time to get up out of your chair and away from the sports on tv and do some thing about your Government

Start kicking up a storm and do some thing about this bs that is not only going to affect you but the whole dam world

U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 19 Sep 2008 at 06:24:34 AM GMT is:

9,649,580,048,363.34

The estimated population of the United States is 304,754,343
so each citizen's share of this debt is $31,663.47.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.80 billion per day since September 28, 2007!


[edit on 19-9-2008 by duffster]