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Originally posted by acura_el2000

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

Ok, so that's the flight path, why would the plane need to "pull out" of the dive? It never needed to, nor did it.

The math might be correct that it would need 34G's to pull out, but there is no need for the plane to do so, as it would just deflect off the ground, and ram into the Pentagon anyway.

Your post has alot of logical information, however you need to look at all view points on the issue before becoming convinced on a certain one.

Are you kidding me? Since when EVER has a plane going 500 mph at that kind of angle simply 'deflected' off a lawn? That is the most ridiculous statement I have seen in quite some time.

Also, IF, the plane didn't pull out of this dive then there would have been more objects on the ground hit. If I recall, there was a tractor trailer on the ground next to the impact zone that the wings would have hit if it had simply 'deflected' off the ground.

I love how people keep rewriting the laws of nature. Yes, that accusation can be thrown at both sides but this statement is plain ludicrous.

Originally posted by apex

Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
Again, why engage in this kind of internet debate? To what end? For what purpose? To accomplish what? It’s a legitimate question: are you more interested in DVD sales, or actually brining the perps to justice?

I always wonder that, since if the focus is getting the 'truth' out, then what's with the charging money for it? If it's just to cover operating costs then fine, but otherwise shouldn't such important information be free?

The problem is the government and the courts. Many attempts have been made to bring this type of information about 911 to court. No one wants to touch it. No prosecutor wants to touch it. You see, people have had their lives destroyed over this and people have even died by mysterious 'suicide'.

It's a bit easier said than done. Why? Because the government has to be behind it. Without that, there is no access to the real evidence that they have deemed 'national security'. Which is the biggest joke of all. NOTHING about that day should be hidden under the national security blanket.

I still don't understand why this grand conspiracy theory that involves so much calculation and detail can't answer the simple question of how it was folks SAW a jet crash into the Pentagon if there was no jet?

Perhaps a better way to look at it is....

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.
BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?
CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.
BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?
CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.
BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?
CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?
RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.
BUSH: Oh, OK.
RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

I wish the people who wasted their time at CIT on this would use their brains for something important. you know...cancer, better fuels, things that are actually good for us.
What are they proving here? nothing. they're just saying "hey look see! there is a conspiracy!!! look look!!!" but really..there isnt one. all i see is a time lapse video of a building on fire, and drawings of planes on a map with arrows and such.
Muslim extremists, cut the throats of pilots and stewardesses, hijacked 4 planes, and crashed them into 3 buildings. it isnt going to make the planes uncrash into the towers and pentagon. why waste all this valuable time?
And who is paying for all this independent research? i hope it isnt my tax money.
There is no conspiracy here people. I know it may feel like you need a better explanation of why this happened to us in the U.S., and that if Israel or this government was involved a lot more stuff happening in the world would be explainable, but there isnt one. We were open for a highly planned terrorist attack, and they accomplished it. No more than that...no less.
I hold no one accountable for the attacks other than the terrorists and the people who support them. And I was in charge I'd be in prison for genocide because i would have nuked every person in the middle east. Especially all the women, children(future terrorists), and men cheering and laughing on camera when they found out about the towers and pentagon. remember them giving candy to the kids and having parties in the streets? i do. They'd all be dead.

Originally posted by dariousg
The problem is the government and the courts. Many attempts have been made to bring this type of information about 911 to court. No one wants to touch it. No prosecutor wants to touch it. You see, people have had their lives destroyed over this and people have even died by mysterious 'suicide'.

Gotcha. So, the courts - all of them - are "in on it" too? Everyone you show the information to in the government is also "in on it" as well?

And the CT continues to inflate.

A rough sketch of all those "in on it":

1. The VA State Police
   
2. The local fire departments that responded
   
3. The local police departments that responded
   
4. The Pentagon employees who were among the first responders
   
5. Everyone of CIT's witnesses - save one who all claim the plane hit the building
   
6. All of the eyewitnesses who have been quoted as seeing the plane hit the building
   
7. The FBI in it's entirety
   
8. The "Military Industrial Complex"
   
9. The entire C-130 crew on the scene roughly two minutes after the strike
   
10. Every FAA radar operator for 100's of miles
    
11. The G-Men who have covered up the FAA radar tapes
    
12. The fraudulent "black box" from the plane itself
    
13. Those responsible for faking the "black box"
    
14. Those who have faked the FAA radar tapes
    
15. Those who faked - and fooled loves on into thinking they were talking, live, to their own loved ones - cell phone calls
    
16. Those who have altered/doctored/fakes the cell phone recordings/data/records of calls
    
17. Those who killed the passengers and crew
    
18. those who presumably transported the dead bodies to the site of the "attack"
    
19. Those who placed the bodies
    
20. Every single witness who would have seen cadavers being brought into the building and placed after the fact (before?) and have said......nothing
    
21. The office workers physically in the building who did not notice their desks being wired with explosives before the event
    
22. The G-men who placed aircraft parts in the building and on the lawn
    
23. Every employee at the airport where the "attack plane" landed after the fact
    
24. All support personnel for the missile or Global Hawk hat was actually flown into the building
    
25. The pilots of the Global Hawk -or- the programmers that programmed the cruise missile’s flight path
    
26. Those that placed thousands of gallons of Jet A before hand, in the building
    
27. All those employees who noticed a couple of thousand-gallon tanks of jet fuel sitting around and said nothing -, before or after
    
28. Every FBI agent who was on the scene and has never reported a single thing to back up a grand conspiracy
    
29. Every USA Today employee that witnessed the plane impact the building
    
30. Every court in America
    
31. Every member of government
    
32. The Vice President
    
33. The President
    
34. The VP's entire support staff
    
35. The President's entire support staff
    
36. the Secretary of State
    
37. The Secretary of Defense
    
38. The entire SOS's staff
    
39. The Entire SOD's support staff
    
40. The Joint Chiefs of Staff
    
41. The entire JCoS's staff officers
    
42. The Secret Service
    
43. The Secret Service's uniformed corps
    
44. Every reporter who reported on the incident
    
45. The Entire Staff of Popular Mechanics
    
46. The ticketing agents who checked the entire passenger list into the flight
    
47. The gate agents who checked each passenger a the gate, physically boarding the plane
    
48. The baggage handlers
    
49. Those that presumably moved the (now executed) passengers personal effects and "staged" those effects at the Pentagon
    
50. Those who took pictures of what is clearly aircraft parts from the correct airline and aircraft are either "in on it" or were fooled while actually there, while the superior skills of internet sleuths years later have uncovered yet more 'smoking gun evidence'
    

This doesn’t even scratch the surface of all those who would have to be ‘in on it’. This is plausible to you?


[edit on 19-9-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]

Please answer these questions that are directly related to evidence. Once you (the royal you) can provide a plausible narrative to negate these questions, only then is it reasonable to entertain notions of a fly over.

Hint: conspiracies, layered upon yet more conspiracies is not a cohesive narrative. It's unfounded speculation.

(1)What happened to flight 77?
If flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, then where is it? Where is the plane – physically? Who disposed of the aircraft? Where was it disposed? How? We are talking about 110 tons of aircraft, engines, fuel, seats, trays, avionics, luggage, etc. Where are the eyewitnesses that saw the plane physically fly over the Pentagon? Where did it land after the fly over? Were the FAA radar operators “in on it” too? Where are the airport employees who saw the 110 ton airliner land, at the undisclosed location? Were they “in on it” too, or were they killed? If so, who killed them?

(2)What happened to the passengers and crew?
Where are the passengers? Were they all “in on it”? If not, who disposed of the passengers? Where were the disposed of? How have the disposers been keep quiet? Have the disposers been killed too? How have the disposers of the disposers been kept quiet? Where were the bodies taken/buried? How was this accomplished?

(3)How do you explain the phone calls from loved ones physically on the plane, to other loved ones?
Where the calls faked? From where? How were family members duped into thinking they were talking to their wife (for example) when in you’re claiming they were talking to a computer program? How do you reconcile that some of the phone calls went through cell phone towers very close to the so-called “official” flight path? How do you reconcile that some of the calls originated from the Airphones physically on the plane in question?

(4)How do you explain the wreckage found in the building?
If it was planted, how was it planted? Who planted it? When did they plant it? Where did they get spare aircraft parts? Where were these spare aircraft parts stored? How were they transported to the scene without anyone noticing? Were the parts in question placed beforehand? If so, how? How was this accomplished without anyone noticing?

(5)How do you account for the wreckage found on the lawn?
Were the parts found in the lawn placed beforehand ? If so, where are the witnesses talking about aircraft wreckage laying around on the lawn beforehand? Or, are “they” “in on it” too? Was the wreckage on the lawn placed after the event? If so, how were “they” able to accomplish this without anyone noticing? Or are the potential witnesses, after the event “in on it” too?

(6)How do you reconcile the impact location, as it relates to the evidence?
How were the perpetrators able to judge the exact location of impact, before the event? That is, how do you reconcile that the airplane debris in question is exactly where it should be?

(7)How do you reconcile the bodies of the passengers and crew being positively identified through DNA evidence collected from within the Pentagon?
Is the DNA evidence faked? If so, by whom? Is the lab that conducted the tests and certified it’s authenticity “in on it” too?

(8)How do you reconcile personal effects, positively identified by family members as belonging to their next of kin, found within the Pentagon?
Was this evidence placed beforehand? If so, by whom? If it was placed after the event why did nobody notice? Or, are the first responders (Pentagon employees) “in on it” too? How were personal effects taken from the victims (like a drivers license) without their knowledge beforehand and planted?

(9)How do you reconcile the bodies of passengers found within the Pentagon, some still strapped into their seats?
Were the bodies placed beforehand? If so, how do you explain the bodies in question checking in at the counter at the originating airport? Were the ticketing agents “in on it” too? If the pilots were killed beforehand and then placed in the Pentagon (at some point), who flew the plane? If the bodies were placed after the event, how were the correct passengers and crew killed, then placed in the Pentagon without anyone knowing? Are the first responders, who found the first bodies, “in on it” too? Can you offer a time line that reconciles the correct passengers/crew checking in at the airport, being led off and executed and then their bodies being transported to the crash site?

(10)How do you explain the impact zone damage being completely in-line with a fast moving commercial airliner?
Was it a controlled demolition? If so, where are the blasting caps? Wiring? How was the area wired without anyone noticing? How long would this take? How would the employees who were killed at their desks not notice demolition experts wiring their office with demolitions and not complain, notice, or ask questions? Or, were the employees killed at their desk “in on it” too? If there were no employees at their desks, were the bodies planted before the event? If so, how? By whom? How have the planters been kept quiet? Were the planters killed too? By whom? Were the bodies planted after the event? If so, by whom? Where are the eyewitness reports of dead employees being brought in, after the fact? Or, were/are these potential witnesses “in on it” too?

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt

Originally posted by johndoex

Reheat, remember when you said others will figure out why you remain anonymous if i keep posting...?

Yeah, we all know why you remain anonymous ReTreat.

Have a great day!

Rob

I think Reheat is talking about this Rob:

“Mark Roberts deserves to die a traitors [sic] death for trying to suppress 9/11 families from seeking the Truth.”–"Pilots for Truth" founder, and ex-commercial pilot, Robert Balsamo

...And a few months later:


"Mark Roberts does deserve to die a traitors death....

I will not apologize for it this time. I will be there for his death should America fall into Civil War. That is not a threat. .that is a promise.
If he gets in my way of defending our Constitution.. it will be my pleasure to put a bullet in his head to defend our Constitution from enemies foreign or domestic." –"Pilots for Truth" founder Robert Balsamo, panicking after I challenged him to a debate. (Punctuation left as is.)

Oh, but it was all taken out of context and it was just a joke. The same thing he's said about accusing me of being a sex predator and being alcoholic. He and some of the people around him are the closest one can become to being Internet stalkers. If I get an argument I'll give examples.

Oh, I'm not personally afraid of him or anyone else at all, but I do have some close family/relatives who lead prominent lives and I'll be damned if I will subject them to this kind of nonsense.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
Put it this way....this is not a 1 dimensional problem that can be solved with an online calculator.

Actually IMHO it barely needs a calculator at all, let alone an online one.

I'm hardly going to sneak off to the nearest internet cafe some 20km from here just for this so all I need to know is the distance from the VDOT tower to the light poles. The altitude of the plane at the tower is somewhat up for grabs but I do have the plane's speed at ~238m/s to work with.

Your 34g figure implies the plane pulled out of the dive in a distance of ~18m (takes <100mS btw) which is obviously highly unrealistic and there was considerably more distance than that to level out in - I put the distance available at 400-500 metres but the actual figure would be helpful.

The rough figures I've done indicate that to descend from a height of 100m and level out in a horizontal distance of ~500m would pull about 6g's for about 2 secs.

EDIT - post got chopped up somehow

[edit on 19/9/2008 by Pilgrum]

Well done Craig, a star and flag for you, you have put alot of work into the thread. Its quite obvious that a plane never hit the Pentagon but a missile and fired fom where?

Its very convenient is it not that the part of the Pentagon that was hit was undergoing refurbishment therefore allowing the perps to plant everthing from bodies to explosive devices and parts of a plane.

The difficult part for people in regard to this matter is that they cannot simply believe that their own Goverment or those working behind it killed its own people simply to wage war for profit and power.

That begs the question what is their reply to all the other events in history where such events have occured and continue to do so.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Well done Craig, a star and flag for you, you have put alot of work into the thread. Its quite obvious that a plane never hit the Pentagon but a missile and fired fom where?

Hey thanks mm but we don't think any sort of missile or other plane was involved.

Everybody only saw one plane on the north side of the station so that one had to have flown over.

We think the damage was covertly implemented with pre-planted explosives similar to what happened at the WTC.