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Pope tells the dying to endure suffering

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posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by ChChKiwiI wonder how one can maintain dignity when someone else is bathing you, feeding you, wiping your bum , wiping, feeding, clothing, cleaning...???


Easy question. You do not. You let it go to far and you have no dignity, you have no choice. And those you leave behind remember you without either.

Ughhhh. I guess some fear death more, thank God I am not one of them!




posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 01:04 AM
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reply to post by dgtempe
 



Can you imagine the same pope saying we should welcome our brothers from outer space?

I rest my case.


What case is that?
What does the one have to do with the other?




...in the dark...



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 02:16 AM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 


This is exactly why I despise Religion so damn much!!!

Every Man & Woman should have the right to control their own destine.

The Churches have always been about making people fear, in order to control.

The sooner we kick religion off this planet, the sooner we'll have peace & prosperity.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 02:19 AM
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reply to post by jpm1602
 


He has Beady little eyes...



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:11 AM
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I have noticed a lot of people here making reference to being hooked up on a machine and the evils of wanting to turn it off. Lets think about that…..Is shortening ones life any worse than lengthening their life if their ‘hour’ is already determined?
A dying person on a ‘man made’ machine prolonging a life that 'by the will of God’ should have already ended or for that matter any kind of medication?!?!?
Does this not mean that the whole science of medicine in inherently evil for having a person live beyond their chosen time?
Can someone please explain this one to me?



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 05:02 AM
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Why now and why in Lourdes?
No, its not because he knows something about an impending doom but because this year is the 150th anniversary of the apparitions in Lourdes which is why he's visiting there.
Why talk about death and dying?
Because Lourdes is where many people of varying degrees of illlness travel annually seeking comfort - no, they don't all go looking for a "cure." St Bernadette the visionary of that place is known to have had a physically painful and agonizing death in her early 20's while spiritually she delighted in the opportunity it gave her to suffer for others and enter the embrace of the Lady she had been graced to see.

In 2004 Pope Benedicts predecessor, John Paul II, visited Lourdes on a final pilgrimage in the depth of his own illnesses and Parkinson's disease. He was trundled around the place on a "throne" on wheels and was filmed praying at the grotto with spit dribbling from his mouth which he couldn't close any more while 100's of thousands stood watching . He looked ugly and would not have graced the pages of any of our "master race" supermarket magazines. The man who travelled the world bringing his message of peace and reconciliation with a loud and strong voice ended up with a tube in his throat appearing at a window with frozen features unable to speak and barely able to raise his hand in blessing. The physical message he gave was in a world where legislatures are at various stages of disposing of the sick and dying (economically useless) that instead we should be compelled to care for and tend to them as best we can and remember that all the promises of the single greatest conspiracy of our age - material utopianism - are ultimately empty.

Fascism? Naziism? Suck in all these "conspiracies" about the papacy you like while the world around us annually moves closer to the ideals of Naziiism: Eugenics...abortion of the "unwholesome"...murder of the incapacitated...adoration of the body beautiful.

Euthanasia was Christianity's word before it was materialisms, it means (literally) "good death" and means facing the final curtain knowing you've done your best to serve God and your fellow man or being given the opportunity to repent for the ills of life. I'd rather die knowing I'd done my best rather than hoping the guy with the machine had done his best getting the mixes right before he injects me.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 06:45 AM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 


when the heck is Roman Catholic Church going to understand that they are defending values that DISAPPEARED with the end of the XXth Century?
Now we can have control of our lives?$*



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 09:29 AM
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He is not saying anything new at all. This has been the teaching of the Church for a very, very long time.

As to those that want to read something sinister into this, well they will read something sinister into anything they don't agree with. But that's all right, those are people that can see no further than their own personal interest, have no sense of morality at all, and are firm believers that THEY are the most important thing in the world.

As to suffering being accepted, why wouldn't this be the teaching of the Church, and of the majority of churches in this world? One can rant and rave about the end, or one can accept it. Hospices all over the world show that people can, and do, accept their deaths with dignity.

As to suffering, well I have been in severe pain for over 30 years now. I thought about giving up, but I decided that if I just stayed in bed I would hurt, and if I lived my life I would hurt. I might as well live my life, since the alternative was little different.

Since that time, I have enjoyed 4 grandsons, loved my wife as the best thing that ever happened to me, travelled all around the world, met hundreds of people, and generally had a good time. And each and every day, I still have pain.

That is the kind of thing the Popw was addressing. Too bad the fool that posted this topic, and a lot of other very short sighted people that post around here, can;t see that there are much worse things in this life than pain and dying.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 


They won't. The RCC was designed and imposed upon the old roman world as a method of population control. Not as in birth control, but in the sense of controlling a population from cradle to grave.

I refuse to use the word Pagan, as it was a word that was imposed upon the old world as a manner of demonizing it, making it seem bad.

The RCC, being god's representatives on earth, control your after-life destiny, or so they want you to believe, so that you will submit to their earthly control and turn over 10% of your earthly earnings.

As both your money and your submission/membership lend them secular power, it doesn't take much to see the motives behind it. Or the motives behind ANY religious institution, for that matter.

Both the RCC and the evangelical groups are fighting desperately to hang onto as much of that influence and power as they can, as they have seen it slipping away ever since the end of the Crusades. Recent studies have shown that no more than 25% of Americans regularly go to church every Sunday, and less than 10% more do occasionally. Population studies have also shown that the number of the Christian faithful drop as a percentage of the population in the US by 2-3% per year, and have since the mid-90's, as church membership overall is not keeping up with the birth rate.

The situation is even more dire, from the standpoint of the Church, in Europe. Less than 10% go to church regularly there, less in some countries. It was either Denmark or Sweden, who a few years ago, separated the church officially from the State, as so few of their people attended or counted themselves as members, it made no sense anymore.

The only areas of the world where religion holds sway with any real power is in countries where the education level is low or non-existent. Look at the US, religion is powerful in those States where the education systems are poor or controlled by the religious.

The one thing they don't want you to do is to learn how to think for yourself!!



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by OldMedic

But that's all right, those are people that can see no further than their own personal interest, have no sense of morality at all, and are firm believers that THEY are the most important thing in the world.




Bull pucky.

What makes you think there is no morality without religion? Morality in some form is as old as Hammarabi, who posted the first rule of law.

EVERY SINGLE moral restriction in the Bible, whether you count the Jewish or the Christian version, was copied from older religions, or older secular codes of law.

What, the Romans didn't have a code of morality? Of course they did, it was just different than yours!

You have no right to denigrate the morality of others, just because they think differently than you.

I am glad for you that you have lived a long and productive life. Others do not have the chance to live productively, as they have too much pain. Believe me, if you have been able to function well enough to function sexually and have children, I'd say you probably don't understand what it is to endure pain that is bad enough to bring life virtually to a halt.

And as for the topic at hand, plenty of people think suicide, properly treated by society, can be a dignified way for someone to end their life as an alternative to a long and painful end.

And as for you calling the OP a fool, I guess you don't read your own Bible - but then maybe you do, Jesus not only told us not to call people fools, but HE broke his own rule!

Like "Father" like "son", I guess!!



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by VIKINGANT


That is nice of him...I hope he never has to endure a painful death, but if he did, how long would it take to change his mind? Or to see a close loved one go through something like this?

He must know how so many people hang of the word of the Pope so he is willing to make countless people suffer for the will of god.

He then goes on to pray for the sick and dieing. If this prayer does prolong a persons life does this not also have potential to conflict with the will of god?

www.baltimorenews.net
(visit the link for the full news article)


Man, what an idiot..lol

How do you know he has never seen a loved one go through it, huh. You don't, because you've never looked it up. You sound like an ignorant person and yet your title thing denies it. And really all I can say for the last one is..you will never be able to feel



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 01:25 PM
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No question the Pope's statements were rather heartless towards those who are terminally ill. I think about those who are left behind, too. If their deceased loved one suffered greatly before dying, the living relatives will suffer for the rest of their lives remembering that. I don't think there is anyone on this earth who can decide how much another human being can or should suffer.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by rhombus24
Man, what an idiot..lol

How do you know he has never seen a loved one go through it, huh. You don't, because you've never looked it up. You sound like an ignorant person and yet your title thing denies it. And really all I can say for the last one is..you will never be able to feel

Idiot you say?
OK. so it is true that I have no idea what personal expreiences the Pope has had, but based on human nature and common decency any one who has had the misfortune of seeing a loved one die in agony would not make these kinds of statements or enforce these harsh man written laws.
If he has gone through this, then he is considerably more cruel and heartless than I had originally thought....
Either way it is an incredibally insesitive thing to make a person or thier families go through.
Is it ignorant to see through the calousness of this man? I don't think so. Besides, my mini title suggests ignoring arrogance. That being the case, and based on your un thought out comments I think you are in need of being denied.

[edit on 18/9/2008 by VIKINGANT]



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by rahrens
 


i have no idea where you get your information from but your wrong on every point you made, in fact i dont know why you even bothered wasting those electrons you used to type those posts, infact why are you even wasting our air im sure there are others on this planet that could use that air your breathing for far more important things.

next time please educate yourself before you decide to post more drivel.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 08:25 PM
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The Pope said, “ dignity never abandons the sick person”! Wish I could go back in time and tell that to my then dyeing wife! Cancer is an un-dignified passing, and I’m sure many on ATS have been affected in some way through friends family and such.

Then, in recent times, the ‘Vatican’ decided that limbo did no longer exist! New parents can bury, unfortunately, their un-baptised children and feel that the child is in heaven. My parents had to wait 50 years for this to come while worrying about the loss of their 1st born boy who, to them has been hovering in limbo the last 50 years.

Now suicide! The great sin. I had a very close cousin who committed this dastardly deed 25 years ago. The family had to fight to have him buried in the family grave because of this. Now the Holy See, basically says, unless it was a blatant act of, ‘ I,m gonna kill myself for to see what happens next ‘ it must be OK. IE, depression etc.

Recently the Vatican have been changing things in the catholic belief system. It says that it’s a sin to change the word of the lord and the bible (written word), but for centuries popes have been re-writing the bible. Not more so than recently. This also makes me wonder what is going on at the minute in the world with the given situation on the globe.

It seems the Holy see are trying to change a few of the ancient rules in the hope that they will turn around the dwindling membership and keep the members they have, and hopefully ad to the coffers (money.

By the way!!!! Maybe I,m wrong but did I see somewhere that there is a new commandment added to the 10! Its now a sin to gain excessive wealth!

What can I say, that coming from probably the most wealthy and darkest secretive state in Europe, or maybe the globe! I’m was catholic I’m now Christian or maybe more of a spiritual person. Why? The changing parameters of the Vatican is why.

I’m AM knocking the Vatican but definitely not catholics, Christians or any other religion or person in this. We, to me are all the same in this world.

Hope I can provoke a good discussion

Albert Fothergill

I may be a bit late here as ive taken a while to write this. So apologies my friends if by now my post is old news.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 11:32 PM
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This suicide thing...

Cutting one's life short, eh? Cowardly? I can't really judge, only someone who has ever committed suicide could truly comment on that, but I doubt that's an option available to them.

God knew individual X would off himself before he created him. You can't undo death, so I have to conclude that THAT was the hour of death God had set for the person in question in the first place. Which is why I don't get the "he cut his life short" thing.

A poster before me said the weak give up when things get tough, but I think it takes a lot to consider suicide.

The pope's comments are a mixed bag for me, as I can (somewhat) understand the idea behind them, but often real life dictates otherwise. I was in the presence of a relative who was suffering quite a lot, and sometimes it feels like it would be better for things to end just then.

Dignity my rear end!

[edit on 18/9/08 by Anomander]

[edit on 18/9/08 by Anomander]



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by Ironclad
 


And that's because religion takes away the very thing that it attempts to give.

FREEDOM and TRUTH.

The biggest hypocrisy in recorded Earth history.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by WatchNLearn
This should come as no surprise, after all, he is just showing his Nazi roots, and we all know how compassionate the Nazis were...


Agreed. He is a deceiver and should not be trusted.

Anyone who thinks he is a kind and loving man has been fooled.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by albertfothergill
 


I am sorry your parents had to go through that hell of wondering if their child was in heaven or not. I had 2 children. 1 died about 12 hours after her birth the other was fine. The point to this though is that religions do ingrain things into people's minds.

I had a c section when my daughter was born and because she was premature would not let them touch me until a priest was in the operating room to baptize her the moment she was born.

As for my son, the priest knew me and my son was a month premature but fine, yet I made him come to the hospital at 10 pm on a Friday night to baptize my son. I guilted him into it.

I have spoken with priests over the years and they have all said 2 things to me that the main stream RCC didn't believe for a long time. 1) Unbaptized children are in heaven God would not punish them, and 2) People who commit suicide are not burning in hell. They obviously had problems most people don't have.

I don't know if I had enlightened priests to talk to or what but I am glad for their compassion.



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