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The Denouement

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posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 01:45 AM
I couldn`t remember where I had read that, but went looking. After I did a search (i still didn`t find that article, though it may have been what their total net worth was), and I am getting the impression that no one really knows what it will cost in the end. Early reports were 25-50 billion, and later reports saying anywhere between 200 billion up to 1.2 - 1.5 trillion.

So, your guess is as good as mine.

Now I remember, I was watching CNN and they were discussing the bailout. That`s when they said that when all the stats. were in, it COULD go as high as 5 trillion dollars the tax payer would have to cover. That`s why I said, correct me if I am wrong, I wasn`t sure if it ended up being that high or not.

[edit on 17-9-2008 by FiatLux]

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 03:05 AM
What I don't understand is how they're getting all this money in the first place. "The tax payer?" What does this mean for our taxes?

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:37 AM

Originally posted by SonicInfinity
What I don't understand is how they're getting all this money in the first place. "The tax payer?" What does this mean for our taxes?

The Fed just punches some keys on a computer and its there...need a Billion, Click here..need 100 Billion Click here...Press Enter for 1 Trillion

Seriously, its all 'fake' money..there is nothing behind it; but the rest of the world sees it as 'gold', watch what happens (what is happening) when they realize its not worth so much because they have 'printed' so much of it.

Its going to be interesting in the next week or so for sure...

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 07:16 AM
reply to post by SonicInfinity

It varies on the total amout of the bailout, your taxes could go up as much as $1,300.00 to $3,000.00 a year. Like I said, it will go up as the national debt goes up.

[edit on 17-9-2008 by FiatLux]

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 10:05 AM
instead of increasing taxes to get ourselves out of debt wouldnt the best solution (in my eyes) be to take things away. disolve unemployment and welfare. When our families came to the US it was get a job and succeed or starve. I know it sounds cruel but christ have we gotten so soft that we cant support ourselves. Im not sure about all of you but i am sick and tired of paying for lazy people, drug addicts and border jumpers that do nothing to help support the economy. If they are not willing to help support us why should we continue to support them?

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 10:17 AM
reply to post by jpm1602

No, I heard the same thing recently. I found an interesting article by Lew Rockwell.

Who says so? The President of the Dallas Federal Reserve, Richard W. Fisher. In a May speech at the Commonwealth Club of California, he states that the US national debt is close to $100 trillion. You can read his whole speech at the Federal Reserve web site.


Definitely not 8 or 9 trillion everybody else is talking about.


posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 10:24 AM
The National debt is at 9.6 trillion. Source

Source 2

Before "W" it was around 5-6 trillion I believe, if I remember right.

Where are guys getting these XXX trillion figures?

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 10:28 AM
reply to post by damwel

Unfortunately, the "$10 trillion" number was produced by government accounting, which among other things allows one to ignore Social Security, Medicare, and the new prescription drug benefit. This is like ignoring rent, food, and utilities in your household budget… it will lead to a few bounced checks. Our real debt is about ten times higher.

Who says so? The President of the Dallas Federal Reserve, Richard W. Fisher. In a May speech at the Commonwealth Club of California, he states that the US national debt is close to $100 trillion. You can read his whole speech at the Federal Reserve web site.

Apparently the President of the Dallas Federal Reserve, Richard W. Fisher is saying those things.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 10:50 AM
What you have to get over is the idea that money means anything. Specifically, the numbers we use. Millions, billions, or trillions, it is all arbitrary. All that matters is the amount of value we add to in our production and services. That is true wealth.

Now, insofar as the games we play with money negatively affect the production going on, then we have a problem. What is happening now is akin to the dungeonmaster stepping in and taking away someone's +50 sword, which has been used to tilt the game away from those who actually produce. It may hurt the apparent wealth of the game, but in the end it will be for the good of those who play.

Remember, debt is an illusion. It is all on paper. In fact, a nation's debt is a stealth tax on its citizens. The only way out of our current debt is to reduce the value of the dollar. This is why the dollar has fallen so much during this administration. It is inflation on a massive scale, in essence taxing you by taking a portion of your wealth by simply declaring all of our wealth to be denominated by more dollars per unit. So, you have in fact already been taxed for all of the debt already incurred, and the recent bailouts are an admission by those at the top that when corporations are big enough, their debt is, in essence, federal debt, and we have already been taxed to create it, like it or not.

What does this mean to you? If you accept what I say, then what the government is doing with these bailouts is insure our ecomonic futures. They are doing their best to prevent that the games played with money have a minimal impact on our actual production, and therefore our actual wealth. You should proceed with caution, but not with fear. If the leaders had wanted to crash the world economy, they could have by now. They have made some major mistakes, and there has been much fraud, but we are learning how to manage an integrated world economy, and no one expected that to be easy.

My advice: avoid stocks and bonds for now. Invest in things that are real: 1) education -- it can not be repossessed, 2) things that improve your life and are durable -- tools, in essence, like a good diesel car -- now is the time to buy, and 3) real estate -- use the current downturn in the market to buy values, especially to secure a good location for your home.

This economy will come back. The next couple of years will be rough for many, but as long as you can maintain employment, you will ride it out just fine. Just focus on securing your economic status.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 11:17 AM
reply to post by Grumble

Can somebody get this dude an APPLAUSE?

Best damn thing I've read all week, including my own dribble.

Thanks, Grumble. That was well worth the read and didn't want to cut myself after reading it.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 01:12 PM
reply to post by jitombe

Perhaps if the taxpayer money actually went to cover the debt people would listen. But why pay it down so the government can bail out another corporation and fund a grant to study bears in Montanna or give raises to the congress/senate, or fund another war.

We can't pay down the debt until the government can prove it has become financially responsible... heck at this point I'd settle for a little common sense.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 02:33 PM
reply to post by SonicInfinity

It is simple and I know this is a very touchy subject here on ATS so I will be careful how I phrase this.

In order to get more confidence into the markets and start getting us out of debt the easiest way would be to legalize Marijuana and put a tax on it.

To put a tax on the other Drugs that the DEA seems to not be able to get control over, I believe the answer is simple as well. "The Fair tax plan"

Imagine what the revenue would be from millions of drug dealers, illegal imigrants, and other under the table workers. If the Fair tax was inacted.


posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 03:30 PM
I found this on the debt clock site linked in this thread's second post.

For the first time in 25 years, the US Government plans to reduce the size of the national debt.
The news represents a transformation of the US budget position, after struggling with huge deficits for most of the last decade.

Official projections suggest trillions of dollars in budget surpluses over the next 15 years, boosted by a strong economy and strict controls on spending.


Irony of ironies, it was largely that very boom period that placed us in this mess to begin with. Everybody started playing "keep up with the Jones family" and the banks finagled the books, telling people with $30,000 a year jobs "Oh sure, no problem. We'll work out a deal with you so you can buy this house that's 6 or 7 times more expensive than what you should be purchasing because it looks great on our books for this quarter. Future be damned! Oh, would you like a loan for an Escalade with spinners and a credit card with $10,000 limit, 0 APR the first year, and 30% APR thereafter with that new house?"

People got effing stupid and banks got effing greedy and now we basically just have a whole population of people who got effed and continue to get effed to this very day. The really sad thing is, if you threw someone into a time machine and sent them back 10 years to tell everybody "It looks great now, but be carefull... this economy is very delicate and all it will take is a dot com bubble burst here, a credit crisis there, and a long line of schysterous corporations & shifty lending institutions along the way for it to explode in your faces and leave your retirement fund in shambles and your house with a forclosure sign on it." we'd STILL be in this mess because nobody would have listened and nobody would have cared. Veruca Salt from Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory comes to mind... "I want my ticket, daddy, and I want it now! Now! NOW! NOW!!!"

People truly are very much like coyotes. A coyote will go weeks without eating and when it does find a carcass, it will gorge itself. The animal will actually eat until it vomits from overeating, then it goes back to the carcass and eats again. Then, after the carcass has been eaten, the coyote is so stuffed it remains sick for a day or so, until it is once again hungry and has no food in sight. Same thing with people. They hemmorage money at the first hint of prosperity, buying absolute useless crap, eating out every meal, whooping it up until they're broke. Next paycheck or tax refund, same process.

[edit on 17-9-2008 by burdman30ott6]

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 03:42 PM

Originally posted by jpm1602
Funny how I used to see my grandparents. No a/c. Showers low flow. Every dime accounted for.

Welcome to the new reality.

I am heart sick because my Grandparents also worked all their lives and scrimped and saved for their retirement. My Grandpa is 93 and would still be working if he had not fallen on ice last year and broke his leg.

Point is that one hospital stay can and does eat an entire life's saving now.

They lived during the American Dream, now the reality is enough to kill them. Yes they own their home, but when the electric bill is 350 a month, and going to fill up the tank and buy some household needs places them in the same boat as welfare parasites, it is just so unfair beyond measure.

What is going to happen to them when there is no Pension check? No Social security? When they cannot pay the huge taxes for the home in the decent neighborhood? Well it was a good neighborhood until all the neighbors and friends started to die and move off, now many of the places are high dollar rentals where transients move in and soon move out. But the city sees it as an opportunity to gouge for higher taxes and utilities.

I just don't know what to do. They are independent and proud, beyond words.

It is a thread unto itself.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 03:45 PM
reply to post by kdial1

I would love it, and it would seriously reduce some of my stress levels as I know some that use rather than drink and I worry so much for their freedom.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:34 PM
reply to post by Grumble

Don't forget to invest as much of your saving as possible into real assets like gold, silver, etc. The economy may come back, but the dollar probably won't if they plan on issuing the Amero any time soon.

Oh btw jpm1602, it's the next day, so I'll be waiting for your source that said we're $541 trillion in debt.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:57 PM

Originally posted by kdial1

In order to get more confidence into the markets and start getting us out of debt the easiest way would be to legalize Marijuana and put a tax on it.

Nice idea, but if drugs were decriminalized, the current economy would get worse due to the fact that all of the drug money is currently being laundered in the US. There are a lot of duckets going to laundering fees.

That being said, I think it should be done anyway since the War On Drugs has been a complete failure unless you are investing in prisons.

To fix this mess, in my opinion, we should:

Stop bailouts, let companies fail and let people be held accountable for their actions.
Declare bankruptcy as a nation.
Declare the Federal Reserve/IMF Illegal.
We bring back tariffs and end all WTO and NAFTA agreements and stop sending our jobs to other countries.
We eject the United Nations from our country and stop being the world police force.
We all rebuild and try to get it right this time.

I can dream, right?

I remember a time when if people drove a company into the ground, they went to prison. Now they get a golden parachute and a 7 or 8 figure bonus. If we start sending them to prison again, maybe this crap will stop.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 06:34 PM
reply to post by SonicInfinity

I am in a rush and can't read the entire thread, but I wanted to thank you for it! Great thread. I'll be back to read further and contribute if I can.

Starred and Flagged with gusto.

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 06:44 PM

"A trillion dollars would be a stack of $1,000 bills 67 miles high."

President Reagan, Feb 18, 1981, warning Congress that the national debt is approaching $1 trillion.

There are plenty of ways to pay off all the debt. Although Im not too sure a lot of people are going to like it...yet.

But seriously, why aren't any of the chosen candidates talking about this?

posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 07:05 PM
Because to talk about it and have it affect their campaign positively is impossible. Either they tell the cold hard truth, which most people don't want to hear, or they lie, which is quickly condemned.

They also have no solutions that are palatable to the american people, if they have any solutions at all, which is debatable.

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