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'Wing flaps failed' on Spain jet

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posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 06:09 AM
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'Wing flaps failed' on Spain jet


news.bbc.co.uk

The wing flaps on a plane that crashed in Madrid last month did not open properly during take-off, investigators have found, Spanish media say.

The investigation discovered that the pilots were unaware of the problem because a cockpit warning alarm did not go off, El Pais newspaper reported.

The Spanair plane plunged to the ground shortly after take-off, killing 154 people on board.

It was the deadliest air crash in Spain in 25 years.
(visit the link for the full news article)




posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 06:09 AM
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As yet Investigators have not released any official statement.

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 06:15 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 06:16 AM
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A preliminary report is released, but not in English yet.

They probably forgot to set flaps for takeoff, and for some reason
the takeoff config warning didn't warn them about that.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by '___'eed
reply to post by Jibbs
 




Thats wasn't It... Trust mE!!!!!


Why should I trust you? And would you care to elaborate a little?



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 06:41 AM
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The RAT was set in air mode and not ground mode hence why no alarms would go off - after the first aborted TO the ground button wasn`t pressed;

this sadly seems a failure in basic airmanship - the crew failed to make sure the flaps were set to flaps 11 and would have been avoided if the checklist had been correctly followed.

there is conjecture over a compressor stall on the number 1 engine but right now its a moot point as twins are designed to TO on 1 engine.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 06:56 AM
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The RAT was set in air mode and not ground mode hence why no alarms would go off - after the first aborted TO the ground button wasn`t pressed


The air/ground- logic on the MD80 (and most other similar aircrafts) gets
input from weight on wheel-sensors on the landing gear.

Main landing gear compression=ground

Main landing gear and nose gear=full ground.

No buttons to push.




this sadly seems a failure in basic airmanship - the crew failed to make sure the flaps were set to flaps 11 and would have been avoided if the checklist had been correctly followed.


I agree that at this point it looks like crew error.

(The MD80 can take off slats only as well)




there is conjecture over a compressor stall on the number 1 engine but right now its a moot point as twins are designed to TO on 1 engine.


Compressor stall sounds likely due to the high nose up attitude.
The MD80 is by most operators limited to 20 degrees nose up for this reason.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Ivar_Karlsen]



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:02 AM
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well the RAT probe heater was on - which doesn`t happen when the aircraft is in `Ground` mode;

also on the MD-80 series there is an autoslat function;

The limitation with this, is that you must have the flap/slat handle out of the up/retract gate and the slats be in the mid-sealed position. Upon detection of a stall, the slats are fully extended. When this occurs the slat position lights illuminate 'Auto' in blue and 'Disagree' in amber. Once you are out of the stall, the slats return to their original selected position. Unfortunately, if you haven't any slats/flaps selected you get no autoslat.


ergo; NO flaps 11/15 for the TO roll , you get NO autoslat in a stall.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:34 AM
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well the RAT probe heater was on - which doesn`t happen when the aircraft is in `Ground` mode;


Well the tech-guys used to pull a certain CB to force the aircraft in ground mode to do some tests on certain systems berfore the first flight of the day.

If this CB wasn't reset they would among other things loose takeoff config warning, strobes and probe heat on the captains side if i remember correctly.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:38 AM
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this was the aircrafts and crews second flight of the day - which is why they didn`t test all the systems (on tht flight deck) things like audible warnings are tested on the first flight or crew swap, which btw isn`t boeings advice - they suggest testing on all flights.

think that will become mandatory now.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:50 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
this was the aircrafts and crews second flight of the day - which is why they didn`t test all the systems (on tht flight deck) things like audible warnings are tested on the first flight or crew swap, which btw isn`t boeings advice - they suggest testing on all flights.

think that will become mandatory now.


It's been 12 years since i flew the MD80/DC9, but we always tested the
takeoff config warning by pushing the throttles all the way forward before engine start, that before every departure.

It would surprise me very much if Spanair didn't have test of all aural alerts as a part of standard operating procedure as it is a part of SAS
(my former airline) .

At least it is good airmanship to do so.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:52 AM
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Ivar_Karlsen and Harlequin, I have no clue what you two are on about but its bloody great to see the info and knowledge being shared here by you both. I take my hat of to both of you



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by Ivar_Karlsen
 


Spainairs standard operating procedures called for the TOWS testing on the first flight and crew swap only , whilst SAS followed boeings advice of checking each time you were do to `go up` , Spainair (amoungst others) did not;

but - why didn`t the alarm actually go off? the article suggests the crew were not aware of any issue till the stick shaker - but why then was it not nose down , flaps 15 and throttle up?

could it be a faulty electrical part or the circuit breaker - there was the probe issue which brought them back to the stand in the first instance (abnormal heaing behaviour)

if i was to guess i would say a mistake in the cockpit (assuming at flaps 11 for TO after the first abort) and a problem with the TOWS;

all avoidable if they had followed the checklist - remember SpainAir offered the crew a replacement aircraft after it came back the first time.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by StarTraveller
 


Finally!!! Other airline pilots, Ivar and Harlequin!!!

Great to have you onboard.

For the lay audience, this Spanair accident is eerily similar to a Northwest Airlines accident in Detroit, Michigan in....I believe 1987. We studied that accident extensively in annual re-current training, looking at the human factors in a causal chain of events that up the the pilots forgetting to set the flaps/slats during the taxi check-list. AND, just as in Spain, the CAWS take-off warning did not sound.

A minor bit of trivia on this crash -- there was one survivor, a little 4 year old girl...virtually unscathed. Very weird things can happen in a chaotic event such as that.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 08:12 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


I don't know about Spanair, but my airline has completely eliminated the Taxi Checklist. We cover everythin in the Receiving Aircraft list, then in the After- Start check. Trim, flaps slats, control checks all done prior to taxi. That way, no distractions while taxiing to the departure runway.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 08:17 AM
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i21.photobucket.com...

Thats what we are talking about when saying things like `flaps 11`

its really not the easiest thing to overlook tbh.

[edit on 16/9/08 by Harlequin]



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 08:23 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


It's been a long time....but in that pic they have the 'dial-a-flap' set to about 6 degrees, looks like.

Then we have the 'suitcase handles' for the alternate trim...the speedbrake' and the two throttles....I don't see the flap handle. (EDIT)...oh, there's the bigger view from photobucket now. I was seeing half of it at first.

But, you're right, hard to miss. Seems they may have rushed the pre-flight and skipped over the checklists. Very poor pilot discipline.

[edit on 9/16/0808 by weedwhacker]



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 08:25 AM
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relinked it - flaps are the big handle on the right



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 08:30 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


Yeah! Ah, memories....hated that airplane, personally. But it paid better than the 737. Looks like 'dial-a-flap' is set to zero. Little thing on the left is the manual CG indicator? I especially hated the flap/slat handle. All the 'gates' to maneuver through with those levers.

Cramped cockpit...through out my right shoulder once, swinging my flight bag over into the cockpit wall side recess.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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