Tupolev Tu-160 pair make first transatlantic flight

And what do we have here?

www.flightglobal.com...


Did they carry some concealed nukes to try and re-enact the missile crisis?
I think this is a very big statement right here.

However the interception by Norwegian and USAF F-16s, makes me wonder if this aircraft is capable of making a low profile transatlantic flight in a real time operational scenario.

That's probably the point of getting them over here, an Atlantic flight would get picked up by the Radar of more than one country. But now they're here and can launch from land.

reply to post by Daedalus3


during peacetime ,nations are informed about tests and exercises before hand ...

It was not some secret flight, it was probably filed with international flight plans. No, it would use too much gas down low to fly across the atlantic that way most likely

To OP:

relax, I'm very sure Russians made some phone calls before they flew the Tu-160s. It's not in their interest to gamble a serious confrontation (which could have easily ensued if they tried to sneak across).

Originally posted by neformore
Those two planes can pack enough nuclear punch to drop 12 military bases between them using cruise missiles while standing off a coastline...

They might as well launch ICBMs and save the gas if a suicide wish is what someone has in mind with that scenario.

Personally I'm not particularly concerned about the cruise missile threat. If they want to try long range shots with a non LO subsonic missile the size of a Cessna against the CONUS, by all means. A modern day fighter can fly right up to it and go for a gun kill if he was out of missiles for some reason.

This is the EXACT thing that the F-22's are tasked to deal with.

They are just putting on a show and nothing more. AS WP points out, if they were being really beligerent they would be trying to sneak an SSBN in close

Hell, they probably stopped in Hawaii for gas!

reply to post by WestPoint23

reply to post by neformore


Hugo seems to be loving it, while maybe not a "wake up" call for those with stars, it may be one for the general public (those not too concerned with MTV to care).

reply to post by neformore



I do not count out the New Soviets capability. All the more reason for the US to keep investing in BMD, More F-22's Conventional ICBM's for quick strike, Laser based offensive and defensive weaponry and the like.

The only thing that bugs me is the near mythological status some New Soviet weapons systems seem to attian here in discussions.

Originally posted by FredT
reply to post by neformore

 

The only thing that bugs me is the near mythological status some New Soviet weapons systems seem to attian here in discussions.

Completely Agree Fred.

Though some would argue that the F-22 / SR-71 has the same position on the forums with those who have just skimmed the surface. In my opinion we do a good job trying to balance and bring forward as much information for digestion as possible.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
However the interception by Norwegian and USAF F-16s, makes me wonder if this aircraft is capable of making a low profile transatlantic flight in a real time operational scenario.

They would go straight over the pole if it was for real.


Why expose yourself to unnecessary risk crossing Norway, the UK, the Atlantic (where the USN will undoubtedly have carrier groups - although the ability of the subpar hornet to actually intercept is a question mark) and then the relatively small US east coast.



No, they'd head north, over the pole, then fan out on the way down to attack across a broad front and really stretch the US/Canadian defences out.



With regards westpoint's cruise missile argument:

AS-4 Kitchen, entered service in the 60s, its supersonic.

AS-6 Kingfish, entered service in the late 60s, also supersonic.

Both of these were capable of land based attack.

The AS-16 Kickback was Mach 5 missile, entering service in the early 80s, it was primarily an anti-ship missile, but you can be sure it is not a big job to redesign for land attack duties, if variants do not already exist.


The AS-15 Kent is a subsonic cruise missile capable of terrain following, janes also reports the Kh-101/102 follow ons to the AS-15 Kent are actually designed with low observables in mind.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
...although the ability of the subpar hornet to actually intercept is a question mark).

The Superbug would not be concerned with a photo intercept, with proper warning a formation of Hornets on CAP with AIM-120Ds and the backing of SM-6 interceptors will more than suffice.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
With regards westpoint's cruise missile argument:

It kind of defeats the purpose to mention random cruise missiles that happen to be supersonic without mentioning their launch platform, missions, current status and range.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
...but you can be sure it is not a big job to redesign for land attack duties, if variants do not already exist.

I'm sure hypothetically it's possible for it to hit a stationary land target, but it still does not factor into the discussion.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
The AS-15 Kent is a subsonic cruise missile capable of terrain following...

Yes, aside from that however there is not much else to help this missile avoid intercept. either in mid flight or in the terminal stage. And it is the main long range cruise missile the Tu-160 carries. Sure there may be unconfirmed reports and speculation regarding missile X or Y but would the entire Tu-160 fleet be fitted with, certified, and ready to go with them tomorrow if need be?

All I have to say is that those Blackjacks sure are some sweet looking...

aircraft!

Sure would be neat to see one in flight in person.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The Superbug would not be concerned with a photo intercept, with proper warning a formation of Hornets on CAP with AIM-120Ds and the backing of SM-6 interceptors will more than suffice.

Is that sort of firepower likely to be over at the poles, an international grey area? While I can understand that in the Atlantic it's going to be at hand, the likely attack route over the pole is probably not as militarized. If the attack was in wintertime, naval power at the pole would be at a huge disadvantage. Remember, during the Cold War people in North American were particularly fearful of a Soviet assault over the top, hence programs like the Canadian Avro Arrow which were designed to operate in those conditions.

Yes, aside from that however there is not much else to help this missile avoid intercept. either in mid flight or in the terminal stage. And it is the main long range cruise missile the Tu-160 carries.

Tu-160 is not quite the B-2. Instead of using for a VLO approach, difficult to detect, it leverages dash capabilities to restrict response time for opposing forces. While an onslaught of massive White Swans is going to be highly visible on radar should they try an over-the-top or even over the ocean route, this is no longer the case. The message here is that the birds can get within arm's reach of the North American continent, and thus demonstrates that the amount of warning we'll have is much smaller than we might have anticipated. And if this tactic is used well, then suddenly it doesn't matter as much how easy it is to intercept because there will be 1) fewer aircraft in the area to deal with it when it starts, and 2) more ordinance in the air once the regular forces do arrive, at least compared to scenarios we had before that included longer approaches for the main assault force.

Sure there may be unconfirmed reports and speculation regarding missile X or Y but would the entire Tu-160 fleet be fitted with, certified, and ready to go with them tomorrow if need be?

If we're dealing with an assault started by an opposing force, this problem is irrelevant since it will happen on their timetable rather than yours. The simple solution would merely be to attack once you have enough of the missiles to fit the aircraft and assault with them.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The Superbug would not be concerned with a photo intercept, with proper warning a formation of Hornets on CAP with AIM-120Ds and the backing of SM-6 interceptors will more than suffice.

"Sure there may be unconfirmed reports and speculation regarding missile X or Y but would the entire F-18 fleet be fitted with, certified, and ready to go with them tomorrow if need be?"


You wouldn't have double standards would you?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
It kind of defeats the purpose to mention random cruise missiles that happen to be supersonic without mentioning their launch platform, missions, current status and range.

All are air launched, all fly from the air to sea/ground-level and destroy things on the sea/ground.

Some are very old, and have no doubt been withdrawn from service. But, unless your the US Navy, you tend to replace older machinery with improved designs.


The first three had a range of a couple hundred miles. Enough to get the job done.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I'm sure hypothetically it's possible for it to hit a stationary land target, but it still does not factor into the discussion.

Why not? Because it highlights the sillyness of your argument?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Yes, aside from that however there is not much else to help this missile avoid intercept. either in mid flight or in the terminal stage. And it is the main long range cruise missile the Tu-160 carries.

Yeap. If your willing to penetrate to within a couple of hundred miles of your target, the Kh-15 comes into play...

and it is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Sure there may be unconfirmed reports and speculation regarding missile X or Y but would the entire Tu-160 fleet be fitted with, certified, and ready to go with them tomorrow if need be?

Nope, not a chance.


But as pointed out, the offense call the plays, and here the defence have no time-outs.

Originally posted by Darkpr0
Is that sort of firepower likely to be over at the poles, an international grey area?

As far as CBGs are concerned, no of course not, airborne systems on the other hand will still be present. I was simply replying to the assertion that even in the Atlantic US assets would have difficulty intercepting Tu-160s.

Originally posted by Darkpr0
While an onslaught of massive White Swans is going to be highly visible on radar should they try an over-the-top or even over the ocean route, this is no longer the case.

Huh?

Originally posted by Darkpr0
The message here is that the birds can get within arm's reach of the North American continent, and thus demonstrates that the amount of warning we'll have is much smaller than we might have anticipated.

You'll have to explain that paragraph to me once more because I don't see what you're implying. All I see demonstrated is that the Tu-160 is physically capable of flying a long distance route to a given destination. If that's shocking in itself then I have some beach front property for sale...

Originally posted by Darkpr0
If we're dealing with an assault started by an opposing force, this problem is irrelevant since it will happen on their timetable rather than yours.

But that timetable is a very important one because the state of technology wont be the same. You can add new missiles and I can add more X-Band radars, both sea based and ground based.