My brother is a member of mason society

Originally posted by Occult_Science
My brother does not want to know more, he has secret knowledge to offer people and he is a member of masonic society closely connected with Tibet. Believe me, he does not want to be admitted to any secret society, in any place where he appears secret society appears on its own.

Sigh. Again, if everything you are communicating is true, then your brother is not in any masonic society. The things you have connected with it are not regular freemasonry.

Originally posted by Occult_Science
What i call masonry activity of my brother is political and social activities of his secret society which makes decisions on the gov. level and is connected with intelligence services. You can argue that it's not masonery, so what is left then? Fundraising for poor people from third countries. Yeah, it's really secret......Tell me what else is left. Religion? Brotherhood?

I don't have to argue that the bold is not freemasonry. Its not - its simply the facts of the matter. You seem to be obsessed with claiming all sorts of things that freemasonry is not, and you assume everything is secret. Masonry is not that secret - and if you even did 5 minute of research into freemasonry, you would find what is left is what freemasonry is: a society with an interest in esoteric philosophy that also puts an emphasis on charity.

Originally posted by Occult_Science
I said what my brother can offer people - this is occultism and magic.
What is freemasonry giving - "secrecy" and secret hand-shakes? OK, some charity work as well. Does not impress much at all. What other secrets? Military secrets? This means connections with government which you, "real masons" deny so much. What else? Charitable secrets? Haha.

Those who think the secrets of freemasonry are founded in material value are going to be sorely disappointed. You assume that the secrets of the fraternity are somehow related to something that you believe is important - "government" secrets. The folly is that if you take this outlook you will never discover the true secrets of freemasonry, which have so much more. You will never understand brotherhood if your looking for secrets to give you wealth or power - and you will find no such secrets in freemasonry.

Originally posted by Occult_Science
There is no much attractiveness in society where it pretends to be very secret and that's it. Freemasonry per se does not make any sense. Just another sect, that's it. My brother is a member of society which really makes difference.

How good it is then that freemasonry does not pretend to be very secret. In fact, it holds no secrets - that is the fantasy of conspiracy theorists. It does not make any sense to you because you are seeking things that freemasonry does not offer. You are seeking power, status, and position - and freemasonry does not offer that. And you will never understand what it does offer, because your barking up the wrong tree.

You are saying abouth esoteric philosophy - you possibly focus on philosophy then rather than occultism in which my brother is involved.
Again freemesonic activity in your area may well be treated non-masonic in different part of the globe. Of course, you will say that your society is global and the only true one. There are many global, masonic and very true ones, so what? To me what matters is what has a true value and real influence on matters. For me it is occultism which our community studies, the brotherhood itself is of no value for me. We have one goal, common interests, and I do not worship this as a holy brotherhood etc.
What my brother gives to his students and people who are asking his advice is much more than position in society, money, political secrets etc. He has access to political secrets but this is not the most important thing. The main focus is a community of spiritually bound members, and this community is based on esoteric values. We focus on influence life events by magic rituals, which works on practice very well. After all, even when one knows how to have dialogue with God or Lucifer he never uses this knowledge for getting power etc because its against many principles which matter.


[edit on 16-9-2008 by Occult_Science]

the more I look at people here the more i see how much they want to be classified as a member of particular society. Is there much sense though if there is no feasible purpose in this society? What can be more secret than occultism and esoteric / spiritual knowledge?
I'm talking about occultism without care of what my masonic brother is doing in his society. People do not seem to be much interested in magic though. ...

Originally posted by Occult_Science
You are saying abouth esoteric philosophy - you possibly focus on philosophy then rather than occultism in which my brother is involved.

...Which is why he is not involved in a regular masonic society.

Originally posted by Occult_Science
Again freemesonic activity in your area may well be treated non-masonic in different part of the globe. Of course, you will say that your society is global and the only true one. There are many global, masonic and very true ones, so what?

Incorrect. There is 1 standard for what regular freemasonry is, and it is global and it is the same in every country where freemasonry exists. Your interests are not in freemasonry, they are in the new thought occult movement. Freemasonry does not provide that. Anyone can call what they do masonic, masons don't care, but it doesn't make it real freemasonry.

Originally posted by Occult_Science
To me what matters is what has a true value and real influence on matters. For me it is occultism which our community studies, the brotherhood itself is of no value for me. We have one goal, common interests, and I do not worship this as a holy brotherhood etc.

Whatever makes you happy - but this is not freemasonry. I am a regular Freemason, have absolutely no interest in the new thought movement, and my definition of what has "real influence" casts a much further net than yours.

Originally posted by Occult_Science
What my brother gives to his students and people who are asking his advice is much more than position in society, money, political secrets etc. He has access to political secrets but this is not the most important thing. The main focus is a community of spiritually bound members, and this community is based on esoteric values. We focus on influence life events by magic rituals, which works on practice very well. After all, even when one knows how to have dialogue with God or Lucifer he never uses this knowledge for getting power etc because its against many principles which matter.

Lovely. Honestly, I don't really care and am not into any of that - but whatever makes your family happy. But it is not actually "masonic."

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
I am a regular Freemason, have absolutely no interest in the new thought movement, and my definition of what has "real influence" casts a much further net than yours.

We can argue for ages regarding whose brotherhood is more powerful. I will not bother though, since the knowledge which we've got far reaching and comprehensive. Masonic symbols, are adopted from Qabalah, for instance, which exists longer than Old Testament. How long freemasonry exists? Of course not that long. What you've got is borrowed from jewish philosophy and occultism.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Occult_Science]

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Occult_Science]

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
How good it is then that freemasonry does not pretend to be very secret. In fact, it holds no secrets - that is the fantasy of conspiracy theorists.

that is a disingenuous statement, as much as I would like to side with the reasonable crowd in this thread. I hear it all the time on this board, that masonry doesn't have any secrets, and it's just not true to me. Perhaps you don't consider something a secret, just because it has been posted online somewhere.

I'm still pretty sure that there are masons out there that consider signs and symbols as secret - which is why you are not supposed to perform them outside of a regular lodge of freely accepted masons.

Originally posted by scientist
that is a disingenuous statement, as much as I would like to side with the reasonable crowd in this thread. I hear it all the time on this board, that masonry doesn't have any secrets, and it's just not true to me. Perhaps you don't consider something a secret, just because it has been posted online somewhere.

Actually, its not disingenuous - just facts. Since when is something a secret when the entire ritual is available online, in the library, and in every bookstore? I'm not sure what you would consider secret, but I'll go with the dictionary definition:

1se·cret
Pronunciation:
\ˈsē-krət\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French secré, secret, from Latin secretus, from past participle of secernere to separate, distinguish, from se- apart + cernere to sift — more at secede, certain
Date:
14th century
1 a: kept from knowledge or view

What masonry is, in fact, is a private organization. There are no secrets - you can find all of our private information within 10 seconds by googling. But there are things we prefer to keep private, and as such even though you can find out everything we won't personally tell you about it, because its a private matter.

For example, most people keep their address as private information. Its on a public record somewhere, and it could be found if someone wanted to look, but most people prefer to only selectively give out their address to certain people. Same concept.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by Occult_Science
We can argue for ages regarding whose brotherhood is more powerful.

I sense that by continuing to reply to you, I am effectively slamming my head into a very large brick wall. I'll try just one more time.

There is no argument. Freemasony is not "powerful" in the sense you are using it. It has no power over politics, or anything else. Whatever this other brotherhood is - if it exists and your not trolling - its not freemasonry. That is all.

Originally posted by Occult_Science
I will not bother though, since the knowledge which we've got far reaching and comprehensive. Masonic symbols, are adopted from Qabalah, for instance, which exists longer than Old Testament. How long freemasonry exists? Of course not that long. What you've got is borrowed from jewish philosophy and occultism.

Again, lovely - your free to think you hold the key to mystical knowledge. As a student of philosophy, freemasonry is not borrowed from "jewish" philosophy or occult in the new age thought context you continually use it. It is philosophy drawn from the enlightenment period, with some homage to the Kabbalah found in the Scottish Rite. It is occult only by the most strict definition - the revealing of something that was hidden.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
it's just that i've always wondered why he persecuted them period..

It is rather simple, because Masonry is a free and open society and that was a diametric opposite to the National Social movement which Adolph Hitler promulgated.

reply to post by LowLevelMason


from The Gods of Eden, by William Bramley:

In ancient Egypt, the engineers, draftsmen, and masons who worked on the big architectural projects were accorded a special status. They were organized into elite guilds sponsored by the "Brotherhood in Egypt". The guilds served a function roughly similar to that of a trade union today. Because the guilds were Brotherhood organizations, they used many Brotherhood ranks and titles. They also practiced a mystical tradition.

Evidence of the existence of these special guilds was uncovered by archaeologist Petrie during his expeditions to the Libyan desert in 1888 and 1889. In the ruins of a city built around 300 B.C., Dr. Petrie’s expedition uncovered a number of papyrus records. One set described a guild that held secret meetings around the year 2000 B.C. The guild met to discuss working hours, wages, and rules for daily labor. It convened in a chapel and provided relief to widows, orphans, and workers in distress. The organizational duties described in the papyri are very similar to those of “Warden” and “Master” in a modern branch of the Brotherhood which evolved from those guilds: Freemasonry.

Another reference to the guilds is found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, a mystical work dating from about 1591 B.C. The Book of the Dead contains some of the philosophies taught in the Egyptian Mystery Schools. It quotes the God Thot saying to another God, Osiris:

"I am the great God in the divine boat;... I am a simple priest in the underworld anointing [performing sacred rituals] in Abydos [an Egyptian city], elevating to higher degrees of initiation;... I am Grand Master of the craftsmen who set up the sacred arch for a support."

...

The Brotherhood’s masons’ guilds survived down through the centuries. Guild members were often free men, even in feudal societies, and were therefore frequently referred to as “free masons.” The guilds of free masons eventually gave birth to the mystical practice known today as “Freemasonry.” The mystical Freemasons became a major Brotherhood offshoot that would take on great political importance later in history.

...and as for the "Knights Templar" being unrelated to freemasonry, that just demonstrates a profound state of denial on your part. ...they're simply a branch of freemasonry, of the "Brotherhood" network.

if only all you Freemasons knew that i'm just simply trying to help... the truth is out there, but seeing things as you want to see them only misconstrues the truth. please, do hear ALL sides of a story to deny ignorance!

EDIT: forgot to add this, but why would this famous illustration, found on this masonic lodge's website, show the Knights Templar at the top of the masonic steps on the York side, if there was no relation?! for goodness sakes! why would the illustration, titled "The Steps of Freemasonry", include the Knights Templar as a step, if there is indeed no connection???



[edit on 16-9-2008 by adrenochrome]

reply to post by adrenochrome


There really IS no connection between the Knights Templar of the middle ages and the Masonic degrees that share the same name. The Masonic degrees were developed centuries later, in a time when it was romantic to embrace chivalric codes. Nothing more. Some people like to dress up as knights and carry swords and march around. *shrug* But there have been a LOT of books written trying to link the two and nobody has successfully done so to date. Trust me, there are plenty of Masons who wish it was true, but again, no proof.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
from The Gods of Eden, by William Bramley:

You can stop right there. William Bramley's book is used to attempt to justify all sort of conspiracy fantasy, but the book is poorly sourced, has no scholarly evidence, and is a prime example of "creating conspiracy for profit." Its one man's fantasy about how he wants the world to be explained by conspiracy theories - all without evidence.

For example, lets take the quote you offered: Bramley made a completely unfounded assumption that Egyptian craft guilds must somehow be related to freemasonry. There is no evidence for this, nor did he offer any. In fact we know freemasonry evolved from medieval stone mason guilds. You are drawing your "evidence" from these kind of sources? Again, lets choose to DENY ignorance.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
...and as for the "Knights Templar" being unrelated to freemasonry, that just demonstrates a profound state of denial on your part. ...they're simply a branch of freemasonry, of the "Brotherhood" network.

Actually, I'm afraid you've been deceived by your own "research" again. The York Rite has no relation to the Knights Templar, and the York Rite acknowledges (even on its own website) this fact. The Knights Templar degree is named such out of honor for the Templars, not because they are one and the same.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
if only all you Freemasons knew that i'm just simply trying to help...

the truth is out there, but seeing things as you want to see them only misconstrues the truth. please, do hear ALL sides of a story to deny ignorance!

Indeed the truth is out there...but you don't seem to want to believe it. I find it interesting how you think you know so much more about freemasons than members of the fraternity do, so much so that your trying to "enlighten" us with your knowledge.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
EDIT: forgot to add this, but why would this famous illustration, found on this masonic lodge's website, show the Knights Templar at the top of the masonic steps on the York side, if there was no relation?! for goodness sakes! why would the illustration, titled "The Steps of Freemasonry", include the Knights Templar as a step, if there is indeed no connection???

I have the image on my wall. Again, your either being deceptive or you really have not researched this. This image is from a Time magazine article from the 1950s. It only intends to show the progression of degrees - that the degrees listed come one after another. That you infer that it somehow equates rank or power is erroneous. We value it because of its historical value and it lists many of the degrees, not because its shows a power structure. Masonry has no real steps beyond the Master Mason degree, but it would be very hard to illustrate this effectively and would be confusing because degree numbers go upwards even though they confer no additional rank.

Again, the "Knights Templar" refers to the degree in the York Rite by the same name, it has no relation to the historical Knights Templar.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by LowLevelMason]

reply to post by adrenochrome


I for one would be elated to find out that masonry was closely related to the knights Templar. I am reading about them right now. Very interesting. Do you have anything to link them other than the Scottish Rite degree deticated to them? If so Please post it as it would make quite a stir here and around the world. And please quit trying to save us. We are really just fine. It is kind of like trying to save me from getting beer spilled on my from the keg of Stella Artois that is leaking into my frosty mug. Go look for a kitten in distress.

reply to post by LowLevelMason


Sir, you have quite a stir with your ATS handle. I like that. Now we just need someone to come in here with "Upper Level Mason" and we can have him and you duke it out. have a nice day brother.

Originally posted by network dude
Now we just need someone to come in here with "Upper Level Mason" and we can have him and you duke it out.

I know...after lurking here for years, I thought I'd start posting. I noticed, however, that any mason here was always called a "low level mason" because they all knew the conspiracy theories being created were not true. So I figured I'd just skip the accusation and label myself.

It would be fun of we had a Upper Level Mason post, because then all of these theories that tell us the "evil" high level masons are secret would be shattered! I can see it now on ATS Debates: "UpperLevelMason vs. LowLevelMason - whose right?"

reply to post by Occult_Science


Occult_Science, I have two questions for you:

Is English your second language? I'm guessing it is since I believe you stated you were 30 years of age, yes? I'm trying to account for the way you write. I don't mean this as a jab, but I was assuming you were either very young (until I read your stated age) or that English wasn't your primary language. The latter interested me in that I was trying to guess your nationality based on a phrase or two and your subject matter and locale.

Secondly, and pardon me if you've already stated this, but what is the name of your brother's school? If you can't state it in the forum then PM me the info. I'd like to see a website or have some sort of verifiable information regarding who he is and what you're saying he teaches.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
Actually, its not disingenuous - just facts. Since when is something a secret when the entire ritual is available online, in the library, and in every bookstore? I'm not sure what you would consider secret, but I'll go with the dictionary definition:

1se·cret
Pronunciation:
\ˈsē-krət\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French secré, secret, from Latin secretus, from past participle of secernere to separate, distinguish, from se- apart + cernere to sift — more at secede, certain
Date:
14th century
1 a: kept from knowledge or view

right.. and since certain handshakes, signs and etc. are performed in private, in a room without windows - I would consider that secret, by the definition you have just provided. It is kept from knowledge or view.

If you want to get super technical - then nothing is a secret, because once a single person knows or views something, it's not a secret to them. See how circular that kind of logic can be? Therefore, it is reasonable to say that masons do in fact have secrets. In fact, many times I hear masonry redefined as "Not a secret society, but a society with secrets."

[edit on 17-9-2008 by scientist]

There must be a very large disconnect between your version of secret and the actual definition as accepted by most people.

Originally posted by scientist
right.. and since certain handshakes, signs and etc. are performed in private, in a room without windows - I would consider that secret, by the definition you have just provided. It is kept from knowledge or view.

Kept from knowledge - how exactly are handshakes and signs kept from knowledge? Please tell me exactly how freemasonry does this, since masonic ritual is (yet again) in libraries, bookstores, and on google. If having something available from every conceivable source is secret, I'd love to see your definition of something not being secret.

Originally posted by scientist
If you want to get super technical - then nothing is a secret, because once a single person knows or views something, it's not a secret to them. See how circular that kind of logic can be? Therefore, it is reasonable to say that masons do in fact have secrets. In fact, many times I hear masonry redefined as "Not a secret society, but a society with secrets."

Your being disingenuous again. If the only people who could access handshakes and signs were masons, then it would indeed be secret. However, this is clearly not the case and has not been the case for quite a long time. It is unreasonable for anyone to claim that masons have secrets - its not only unreasonable, its just incorrect as a matter of fact.

If I could find your social security number, credit card numbers, and address in the library, would you still tell me it was secret? Even if you only give that information out to certain people? Same principle.

[edit on 17-9-2008 by scientist]

i'm curious then - why would they use the same exact name as the original Knights Templar if the masons didn't want it to imply it's the same organization? it's a bit confusing for obvious reasons, mind you

how are the old "Knights of the Temple" different from the modern-day ones if they're unrelated, aside from them being true knights? ...they both seem to practice chivalry and a high code of ethics, along with sharing a belief in a God... or has there never been any modern "Knights Templar" - is it simply just a name/label with no significance?

[edit on 17-9-2008 by adrenochrome]

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
There must be a very large disconnect between your version of secret and the actual definition as accepted by most people.

If you are coming right out of the gates, claiming that you are speaking on behalf of "most people," then you are already jaded with your own view. Not a big deal, just something to keep in mind.

Kept from knowledge - how exactly are handshakes and signs kept from knowledge? Please tell me exactly how freemasonry does this, since masonic ritual is (yet again) in libraries, bookstores, and on google. If having something available from every conceivable source is secret, I'd love to see your definition of something not being secret.

Think of this: let's say that you're password to ATS is secret. Only you know it, and you keep it from the view and knowledge of others. Now... someone could easily extract that password from you, with any number of techniques. If they were to then publish that password (unbeknown to you), you would still consider it a secret, correct? Therefore, "secret" is a relative term - in that it's only secret if you don't know it, or if you are actively keeping it hidden from view to others. Also, since masons are not supposed to communicate secrets, even the books that claim to be exposing all these things cannot be trusted, as they violate the enter concept of masonry. Masons are not supposed to write all the secrets down, and publish the info to a library for all to see (in theory). Since those sources cannot be trusted, the only source to trust is the real source, free and accepted masonry. That means you have to join to really know what it's about - and after you join, you are not to share that information with anyone else, except it be a true and lawful brother mason or within a regular lodge of free and accepted masons, etc. etc.

Your being disingenuous again. If the only people who could access handshakes and signs were masons, then it would indeed be secret. However, this is clearly not the case and has not been the case for quite a long time. It is unreasonable for anyone to claim that masons have secrets - its not only unreasonable, its just incorrect as a matter of fact.

Again, please refer to the text above. Just because someone has exposed the secret in books / videos / etc, does not necessarily cancel the fact it's a secret. The reason for this (I am being redundant for simplicity) is because you still don't know if these internet "secrets" are the true, real secrets of masonry. The only way to figure it out, is to join and learn for yourself.