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Conspiracy to Split up the U.S.

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posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 09:46 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 


MOD Note: Courtesy is Mandatory

No more insults




[edit on 9/18/2008 by semperfortis]




posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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You should learn about history my friend.....you do not know the country you live in, the party you belong to and what has been your country´s foreign policy for the past century or so....starting with the Mexican War of 1848, then the Spanish-American War of 1898.....then CIA assited the overthrow of democraticaly elected Arbenz government in Guatemala, simply because they nationalized United Fruit property...Vietnam, millions killed (vietnamese of course) and for what? 1973 Allende´s government in Chile overthrown by a coup d´etat with the help of the CIA.... Suharto in Indonisia, dictator with the US help, Sudan, Iraq (Saddam was a Cia man), Grenada, Panama (General Noriega was CIA asset) etc etc etc etc......Read the Patriot Act..... then tell me if you live in a democracy, a freedom loving country....Sorry, to believe in creationism in the 21st century, you belong to a Papua New Guinea tribe...



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:53 PM
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reply to post by Dan5647
 

Dude U and your american friends are getting exactly what u deserve weather wise, and I think its people like you that are splitting up the country. With your views well stated in your first post it seems the only America you want is a christian/republic one and you type as if you would have it no other way. Is that not divisional in itself? Do you not accept people for how and what they are(isnt that the christian way). I think you should look right to the top of the chain of command in your counrty for those hateful people you talk about, they are greedy and rich.

So at 19 years of age , have you even been to another country? You should come down under and check it out, we have some things over your country, but in saying that, I dont consider Australia the BEST country in the world, and I would place USA alot lower.

I can tell you most, if not all, of the worlds problems stem from greed. Get ride of greed or the greedy ones and life will be better for all, That dont sound very democratic does it?

(all pigs are equal, But some more than others, hahahahahahaha,animal farm)

Have you even looked at any other threads on this site?

Carma works if funny ways, U go kill innocent women and children in other countries and mother nature will exact its revenge in one way or another. Oh and b4 U all jump down my throte, I know there are alot of great people in the states, but if ur all gonna stand by while your rulers carry out war crimes on a massive scale then I think you should all get ready for alot worse.

Finally, Mate this site is for people with open minds, not for those, like you, to get on the froums and spout your religeos point of view. Far out man I have you religeos types knocking at my door to sell me god, why cant you just leave it out. Christianity is freely available through out most of the world and most everone knows its there, so if anybody new whats to be a part of it, wouldnt they just come to church?

Sorry man but you did ask what I thought.

BTW Im no english major,so exuse the poor grammer.

your views annoy me and I think you should get educated and DENY IGNORANCE.

Oh yer welcome to ATS.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 06:21 PM
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This has got to be a troll.

So ill give it 8/10.

I mean really there is no way anyone who managed to find this site and has been a member for 2 months could be so clearly ignorant of whats going on.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 06:30 PM
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Where did you go Dan?

You have 8 pages of people interested in understanding this political divide. If you care as much as you say you do, then shouldn't you been discussing this with us?

You didn't address any of my questions for you.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 06:32 PM
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Part One



Originally posted by nenothtu
I apologize if I've offended anyone, but it does seem to illustrate the divide in question. Also, I couldn't make the quotes pan out quite right without reposting massive quantities of text, so please bear with me while I do it my way.


No offense taken. It's just that we disagree on several issues.



Originally posted by nenothtu
Yes, I see your point. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I have not done what I have for duty, honor or country. I did it for my family, and my friends. I did it so my son wouldn't have to, but I think I miscalculated there. As long as there are people willing to force others to do what they want 'em to do, there will be people who take exception to that. I don't blame the administration for starting this war, I blame Al Qaida for that. I blame this administration for firing up another, and in my opinion, unneccessary (at this time) war, on another front, and taking their eyes off the ball. Frankly, and this is sure to tick off some, I see no basic difference between folks forcing the "blessings" of democracy on others that want no such thing, and folks forcing the "blessings" of islam on others that want no part of it. I've never been to Iraq, so I have no opinion on what they may want there, but I have been to Afghanistan (in the 80's against the russians) and can tell you that they want no part of democracy. it doesn't suit them. Many things about this administration could be viewed as treasonous, but I wouldn't count miscalculating a war among them. that was just stupid.


I agree but your analysis is rather naive. America does not fight to install democracy rather it fights to open new markets, as do other super powers but to a lesser extent. Its not capitalism vs. communism today anymore than it is christians vs. muslims. The corporate owned politicians and media will use the "fight on terror" to rally support for their selfish agendas while millions get killed in the name of NOTHING.

How many billions of dollars have been collected by the military-industrial elite as a result of this reconstruction process? And yes local tribes are killing each other but that would never have happened(at least not to this extent) if we were not there in the first place disrupting the previous status quo. With all this chaos they found a window of opportunity to settle old grudges. Its that simple....short of writing a book and making it boring as hell.


Originally posted by nenothtu
I don't believe I denied atheists a right to exist, or to believe as they will. If that is how it was taken, I apologized for not speaking clearly. I don't care what folks believe, I'm not them. I was just pointing out that a belief system which denies everything is still only a belief system. I've seen heaps of bodies that said, without speaking a word, that people should be left alone to believe as they wish. That right ends where my right to be left alone begins. Same for my rights and their right to be left alone. For the record, I'm neither white nor rich, so that charge doesn't apply. The powers that be have used the Constitution for toilet paper for the last 18 years, so what it says matters only as far as people are willing to enforce what it says. For 18 years they have been unwilling to enforce it.


Sorry I went off-topic in response to athiests. I got carried away with some preconceived notions. As an orthodox christian I believe in God and Christ but do not take well to follwing rules. I think people(especially catholics)should have more liberties than the church is willing to afford. Strong dogma is usually counter-productive and alienates people.


Originally posted by nenothtu
I'm Lower class (some say I have NO class), and have NEVER been supported by a democrat, in anything. I do, however, have friends who are now dead, and one maimed for life, because democrats supported labor unions - because that's where some of the lower class folks put their money. They're all politicians, and they all follow the money. And they're welcome to look down their nose at me long as they don't touch me.


Suit yourself!



Originally posted by nenothtu
Why do I need to compare America to anything? Aren't those other countries separate entities, with their own culture? Why would I want America to conform to their wants, any more than I should expect them to comply to American norms? Why should I want the government to look after MY healthcare? They haven't really done a bangup job in many other areas of control. And make no mistake, national healthcare is just another means of control. The government can give us nothing that it hasn't first taken away. BTW, I've already been assured that I will retire without a social security check. Uncle Sam is keeping it all to cover my student loans, as well as helping himself to an extra 300.00 a month out of my paycheck for the rest of my life to cover same. I reckon I miscalculated there too.


So you prefer being ripped off by private firms? Make no mistake the rates will keep increasing each year as medicine and doctor fees keep rising. Private firms need to show annual profit growth to keep their stock price attractive and hopefully lure more investors. That means you pay more and get less. Not good news if your barely making ends meet.

With a national healthcare system the government only needs to break even and everyone regardless of stature/pay is guaranteed attention. The money comes from a higher sales/service tax and a small annual fee. Quite affordable compared to private insurance. And don't be fooled by republican propaganda as the quality of service is more than acceptable.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 01:11 AM
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In reply to EarthCitizen07:

While we do disagree on several issues, I suspect there is more common ground than would be seen at a first glance, much like the "divide" in question. If people refuse to get beyond that first glance, and insist on staking out their ground and fighting over a pet issue or two, then they lose out on a golden opportunity and other, sometimes larger, issues suffer that might otherwise gain cooperative effort. That is what I see going on in this country, and that is why I will never fight for so abstract an ideal as "patriotism". I question whether americans in general, not individuals in particular, are mature enough to handle whatever degree of freedom has been purchased for them.

In regard to my naive analysis, I submit that you could be correct. It may well be naive, but it's the view from the ground, nothing more. I don't know about such arcane things as "mutinational corporations opening up new markets" I do know I was offered 160,000 dollars per annum, on a contract that was extendable up to 4 years, to go to Iraq and tote a gun, and turned it down. Some things are more important than money, and I didn't feel that was a fight I wanted to get into. As touches upon Afghanistan, those tribesmen have been killing each other off for years, long before even the Russians stirred the pot, and will continue to do so long after the U.S. is gone, and I can't, for the life of me, see what sort of market the U.S. plans to open there. Not all wars are equal, and it may be an error to simplistically ascribe one blanket cause to all of them. I have fought in 5 conflicts to date (sometimes at the express displeasure of the governmental occupants at the time), and in every one of them the status quo was already out of kilter. But then I've never been in the U.S. military, so I've not usually been there for the beginning of things. The guy who taught me arabic (one of those EEEVIL syrians, but a pretty nice guy) summed up the middle east by saying "the war don't stop in Syria. for 2,000 years, the same war. only the players change." Funny thing about them foreigners, they see things differently principally because they have to live in them.

Atheists are not bad folks either, but they tend to get a little more excitable than the average socialist when their pet ideas get tweaked. Makes for some lively discussions in my world sometimes. I'm not equating atheism with socialism, I'm contrasting the two in regards to their volatility.

I grew up in a small town in the appalachian mountains. Every 3 years like clockwork, when the (UMWA) union conrtact was due for re-negotiation, I was treated to the spectacle of all the big wheels from both sides roaring into town, and sparking off a young war. Literally. Therefore I may have a different view of labor unions than you. That doesn't negate your view, but it could provide a different perspective. One year we had 600 state troopers trying (and failing) to maintain the peace in that dinky little area. I wondered who was minding the rest of the state.

Regarding nationalized healthcare, I prefer being ripped off by no one. I don't need a government to force me to look after my health, (at times I live a pretty unhealthy life anyhow), and take more money than they already do to insure it. In the hands of private providers, I have the option to either take it or leave it, and so I determine whether or not they get my coin. And I believe I've seen enough of dying and living to make my own choice in the matter. I tend to look after my own, but I will concede that in america, families like that are on the endangered list.

nenothtu out



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 06:28 AM
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I am a 53 yr old. Proud Very liberal/pinko. I am a US citizen and Canadian citizen. I am fortunate to be in Canada and raising my children here, where competing against your neighbour for your next dollar is not the driving force of life.
I am amazed at the lack of education and information that people have. Opinions held with such fervor are based upon? Who knows? Well I 'spose if a person is willing to think that dinosaur bones are put in the Earth by Satan to deceive us, then it is not much of a stretch to think that the government of the USA helps the downtrodden of the world.

The Truth is the government of the USA has been very nasty to the common folk of the world and continues to be.
USA was built on the blood of the First Nations people that were slaughtered in every state. The economy relied upon the enslavement of the Negro Race for almost a hundred years of cruelty. My own family was shot at by the damn Pinkertons hired by the Rockefellers and their mine owner friends, for trying to start unions in the 1880's. This was not uncommon into the 1910's.
How about, as has been mentioned, 250,00 civilian deaths in Chili, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and El Salvador by right wing death squads and military supported and armed by USA because peasants wanted land or a fair wage or safe mines, 73 to 93. Call them commies because they want to break up the feudal banana plantations and let some peasants have some land. Dole Fruit Co. doesn't like it so the USA supplies weapons to thugs to murder innocents, nuns, priests, trade unionists, university students by the thousands!
I watched the Democratic National Convention on TV in 1968 in Chicago. It was called the Chicago Police Riot. Several thousand young people gathered to peacefully march in protest of the war in Vietnam. As the police charged with clubs swinging, the crowds chanted, "the whole world is watching". Well most of the world forgot.
Even Colin Powell will tell you and has said that he was deceived about WMD in Iraq. Saddam had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks on the US. They were done by Al Qaeda trained Saudis. Secular Saddam was not liked or an ally of the religious zealots of Al Qaeda. Meanwhile in Iraq the coalition soldiers' deaths of about 5,000; civilian non-combatant deaths about 100,000.
And you feel free in the USA now? Free to own a gun? Maybe.
Free to be a wage slave and pay 3 to 4 times the value of a home in interest. Free to create a small business and cutthroat compete with your neighbour to afford inadequate health insurance.
In Canada it is still illegal for most employers to urine test for drug use. Now this may be just a pet peeve of mine, but what measure of freedom and dignity do you have when you must pee in a jar to keep a crappy job at Subway?
The War on Drugs and the War on Terror are all BS to keep you all in line.

I can certainly see why some states or regions might want to secede from the nation. Wait until President Palin decides to roll back abortion rights, gay rights, institute the draft, and go to war with Russia, because of the right of the USA to put defensive nuclear missiles on her border in Poland and Georgia. It is not too far fetched to imagine the entire west coast and northeast states leaving the Union. Throw in a dust bowl and other bad weather and chaos may not be far behind.

Back in the 80's, people in Poland were lining up politely for 10 hours to buy a ration of bread and cheese to feed their family. Do you think Americans will be so polite to each other in a similar situation?

In my mind the USA does not stand for Liberty or Freedom or even Democracy. It has come to be The Protector of the Right of the Big Corporation to screw over anyone and everyone, with money being the bottom line. Noticed Lou Dobbs talking a couple days ago about the FDA ignoring science to continue to allow plastics in baby bottles that have been banned in a half a dozen other countries, due to bad health impacts. Typical.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 07:28 AM
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Well, If boy wonder, aka OP stirred the coals , tossed on a few more logs and went to bed, it's a shame.

I thought long and hard while reading what I would compare to an attempt to chum the water and get the sharks on a feeding frenzy.

Then, suddenly, it came to me all at once. Truly a colossus of knowledge
thrust into mind from a mere incling of an idea. Some would say I had a revelation, or was visited by a great Prophet.
I can visualize how to accomplish exactly what needs to happen so vividly, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up in awe and admiration. The unexpected part of this conception is it's simplicity. There is only a small overall cost to take it from conception to execution and I assure you all, this is the holy grail of simple cost effected strategy that only reveals itself once a millenia. The results are assured as you will see when I lay it all out and the eyes of the global populous widen with dismay at the pure, simplistic beauty of it all, and when ultimately, the plan is executed, there will be no doubt that this will overshadow every mastermind that has ever existed. Easily achieving the desired goal, as well as so much more inclusive collateral benifits for all of mankind. With total tri-partisan unity right here in America as the OP dreams of. The OP will however, be such a hey component to unlock this brainstorm that I will need to reveal the primary elements hurriedly.

Unfortunately, it seems he has abandoned his straightforwardness as quickly as his enthusiastic micro-debates here.

Well, I must retire for the night is fleeing and I cannot boast my champion idea tonight.

I just pray I remember it all in the morrow.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by Dan5647
My name is Daniel Harris. I am a 19 year old Republican. I believe in God and Creationism.



Bad change will happen in this country if we don't stop fighting each other. I am P.O.ed
because there are people who live in this great country who have no agenda but to split us up and no one wants to stop them.

Not only doesn't anyone want to stop them you are even supporting them (see top quote) Don't you think it's time to start thinking for yourself? You're 19 for F's sake, you're old enough to use your brain, you know that?!


They are fear mongers, anarchists, and crazies with no purpose but to hate this country and to consume up our resources in return.
Very shameful.

That's what you get with religious nuts and politicians... So much for freedom eh?


I believe the United States is the best darn country that ever existed on this planet and without democracy, we wouldn't have any freedom or rights. What do you guys think?

I think you need to get out of your country every once in a while to visit countries where freedom is actually more real than you were fed...
For example come visit The Netherlands sometime and then learn to understand why most of these dutch people laugh at the US and it's inhabitants when they so forcefully and agressively try to convince the rest of the world that they are free and even dare to label themselves as free... And when you understand that then watch those same dutch folks complain about their luxury problems that so called freedom bought them...
If wanna see real freedom then go visit some ancient unspoiled by western stupidity African or South American tribe... But I bet you wouldn't like that kind of living...
Since you label yourself a republican I bet you also want to and are going to vote right?
If you do then you should stop complaining because you are the one contributing to 4 more years of chains and stupidity...

Have you seen your country lately? It's bad isn't it?
Not to mention the people who were willing to give their lives for your "free" country still stalking street corners with their cardboard boxes, that they call home, courtesy of the warmongering and moneygrubbing politicians that you are so proud of and support...
Ah but that's America for ya; still the Land of the Weak and Home of the Slave... And you even accept that...
Don't you think it's time to take a stand and attack your puppetmasters instead of your fellow puppets?
You live in a beautiful country that's run and supported by true morons and yet you are complaining about people who don't want that? The irony of it is just hilarious...

Neversin.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 09:20 AM
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Yeah, can't you see OP. The people who you are criticizing just want your life to be more like one of those African or South American tribes. True freedom.

Instead of slaving for the money, you can pull your food from the trunk of a tree. and cook it over an open flame. like the old days, you know.

Instead of lusting after hard bodied beach babes with full bosoms and thick thighs, you can get a natural woman. Everyone in the world is laughing at our way of life.


dude, these people are trying to help you for some reason.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 09:25 AM
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Originally posted by Dan5647
reply to post by billyjoinedat2k8
 


The U.S. don't kill innocent civilians.


Exactly!
They just torture them...

Neversin.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 09:44 AM
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Do you know how many people will blow themselves up this weekend to liberate you, man?

Have a heart. Many people, you don't personally know, who love you will endure unimaginable torture by your slave masters hoping that you to finally open your eyes.

Can you imagine being held under water thinking you'll will drown, only you don't drown or being kept awake for days on end and being questioned as to why you were driving a car laden with explosives. This is all for you and your freedom.

They never talk though, and its all for you. They want you to have their lives. A life of freedom, true freedom.

No more school, no more work. no more money, no more problems. Just life, like an insect or bird or other creeping thing. It would be beautiful. Can't you imagine it?



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by bruxfain
Yeah, can't you see OP. The people who you are criticizing just want your life to be more like one of those African or South American tribes. True freedom.

Are you dumb or just playing?
Your reading skills lack man... But then again you are one of those religious humans...


Instead of slaving for the money, you can pull your food from the trunk of a tree. and cook it over an open flame. like the old days, you know.

You take McD's, I take food...


Instead of lusting after hard bodied beach babes with full bosoms and thick thighs, you can get a natural woman. Everyone in the world is laughing at our way of life.

And you wonder why...

Neversin.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by Neversin

Originally posted by bruxfain
Yeah, can't you see OP. The people who you are criticizing just want your life to be more like one of those African or South American tribes. True freedom.

Are you dumb or just playing?
Your reading skills lack man... But then again you are one of those religious humans...


Instead of slaving for the money, you can pull your food from the trunk of a tree. and cook it over an open flame. like the old days, you know.

You take McD's, I take food...


Instead of lusting after hard bodied beach babes with full bosoms and thick thighs, you can get a natural woman. Everyone in the world is laughing at our way of life.

And you wonder why...

Neversin.


A little bit of both and you are correct, I am a typical uneducated American, I can barely read.

I also blindly follow religion, it doesn't make much sense to me though, as I have difficulty understanding the big words, but you are correct; Go Jesus.

Haven't had any McD today, but thanks for the reminder, I've been wanting some fries. Hope they accept my worthless currency.

Perhaps, I'll see if one of these big booty girls will go with me to McD's, but girls like that, with banging bodies, usually want something better. Women.


We'll provide the whole world with a hardy laugh.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by Dan5647
 


I do not share a lot of your views, but there are some essential truths in what you are saying... I for one was completly against the war, was one of the only ones who at least tried to take a stand against it through non-violent protests and was considered unpatriotic! BUT here is the thing I hate bush and his buddies BECAUSE they are BAD for america! I too think this country could be GREAT, we could become a true democracy (technically we are a republic). I studied geology and inparticular palentology and am a stunch believer in the right to choose, equal pay for equal work among others BUT guess what none of that really matters those are the points "they" (the media, the upper 0.1%, the government, ect...) like to get us stuck on so we don't pay as much attention to all the completely wrong immoral destructive things they are doing!

Bush used a platform of fear to get himself elected the second time around... The answer to everything "9-11" Give me a break terriosts are our worst threat?!?! The economy is in complete shamples, people are lossing thier jobs and not finding adquate work, inflation is rising and our quality of life is rapidly declining, yeah and what is the national deficict up to now don't forget to add on at least a trillion dollars for "the bail out"?!?! We are not safer in the world in fact I BELIEVE as a direct RESULT of what our illustrious leader has done for the past 8 years we have agnered so many countries around the globe we are in serious trouble if we need help because I do not see them doing anything other than kicking us when we are down! Why shouldn't they? We are a BIG HUGE BULLY!!!! We were not always this way


We could band together and fix this country just the big stuff they we can sit around and fight about all the little things! I agree

[edit on 9/19/2008 by kupoliveson]



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by manicmarkCarma works if funny ways, U go kill innocent women and children in other countries and mother nature will exact its revenge in one way or another. Oh and b4 U all jump down my throte, I know there are alot of great people in the states, but if ur all gonna stand by while your rulers carry out war crimes on a massive scale then I think you should all get ready for alot worse.



You are aware that your rulers follow our rulers orders for war crimes, no? The Royal Australian Navy, Royal Australian Air Force, and the Australian Army all committed to and helped carry out the invasion of iraq in 2003. In fact, those of your military who are still there have just now started to be pulled out on june 1, 2008.

So, I know there are some great ppl in australia, but if you are all going to stand by while your rulers kiss our rulers arses in carrying out war crimes on a massive scale, then I think you should admit that you are living under the same rulers (indirectly) that we are, in essence meaning you carry as much responsibility in dealing with the problem


Kissing the arses of those who are evil is more shameful than being evil, don't you think?



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by Dan5647
reply to post by billyjoinedat2k8
 


The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are against terrorism. What proof do you have to claim that WE are killing innocent people?


Being that you are only 19 and have a LOT to learn my friend (believe me, I was in the EXACT same boat as you are now both religion wise and party wise when I was in the service). There is PLENTY of evidence of the killing of innocent civillians. It's pointless to post this evidence since it is actually plastered all over the internet. For example, the recent killings of kids and women in Afghanistan comes to mind. The U.S. immediately says that they only attacked terrorists but it turns out that there is video evidence and eye witness accounts PROVING that it was indeed not the case.

Since you are on the evidence kick my very young friend, please provide to me the evidence that Iraq was a war about terror? I thought it was a war to remove WMDs from Saddam. They weren't a terrorist nation. They never attacked the U.S. or ANY of its allies. They didn't even have WMDs. That was based on lies told by this administration and forged intel docs done by this administration. There's proof to back that up. However, you seem to be blinded by what many in your shoes 'PERCEIVE' as patriotism.

I'm sorry, but true patriotism is to question your government when there are questions to be asked. However, it's not allowed by this administration. If you do get to ask they simply deflect. They have been caught in so many lies and yet you still seem to believe every word, hook line and sinker. It's sad, but I know you are young. You hopefully have plenty of time to gain the experience that I and many others have. To educate yourself in various aspects of how politics, government and greed work.

The only people that have NOT been scathed by this 'war on terror' are this administration and the military industrial complex cronies they support.

Do YOUR research before you make claims like this because it simply displays your age when you do it in this way.



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
While we do disagree on several issues, I suspect there is more common ground than would be seen at a first glance, much like the "divide" in question. If people refuse to get beyond that first glance, and insist on staking out their ground and fighting over a pet issue or two, then they lose out on a golden opportunity and other, sometimes larger, issues suffer that might otherwise gain cooperative effort. That is what I see going on in this country, and that is why I will never fight for so abstract an ideal as "patriotism". I question whether americans in general, not individuals in particular, are mature enough to handle whatever degree of freedom has been purchased for them.


Sometimes excessive freedom is not the best recipe particulary if it's in the wrong hands.
As a socialist democrat I believe the government should have more oversight over all institutions particulary in economics. Just yesterday I heard Senator McCain blast the SEC chief for betraying the investors trust. Why didn't he(or anyone else) say that a few months ago?! Surely the administration could not have been that misinformed could they?


Originally posted by nenothtu
In regard to my naive analysis, I submit that you could be correct. It may well be naive, but it's the view from the ground, nothing more. I don't know about such arcane things as "mutinational corporations opening up new markets" I do know I was offered 160,000 dollars per annum, on a contract that was extendable up to 4 years, to go to Iraq and tote a gun, and turned it down. Some things are more important than money, and I didn't feel that was a fight I wanted to get into. As touches upon Afghanistan, those tribesmen have been killing each other off for years, long before even the Russians stirred the pot, and will continue to do so long after the U.S. is gone, and I can't, for the life of me, see what sort of market the U.S. plans to open there. Not all wars are equal, and it may be an error to simplistically ascribe one blanket cause to all of them. I have fought in 5 conflicts to date (sometimes at the express displeasure of the governmental occupants at the time), and in every one of them the status quo was already out of kilter. But then I've never been in the U.S. military, so I've not usually been there for the beginning of things. The guy who taught me arabic (one of those EEEVIL syrians, but a pretty nice guy) summed up the middle east by saying "the war don't stop in Syria. for 2,000 years, the same war. only the players change." Funny thing about them foreigners, they see things differently principally because they have to live in them.


I was referring specifically to the Iraqi war while you were/are probably reffering to the afghan conflict. I agree the afghan invasion was definetly necessary to send the correct message to al-queda and get rid of the taliban government.

But starting a second war, based on lies, was not only unnecessary but wrong. Wrong as hell! We have outstretched our troops and government/military spending has gone through the wall. All this to benefit certain corporations and people in high positions.


Originally posted by nenothtu
Atheists are not bad folks either, but they tend to get a little more excitable than the average socialist when their pet ideas get tweaked. Makes for some lively discussions in my world sometimes. I'm not equating atheism with socialism, I'm contrasting the two in regards to their volatility.


Understood. Thanks for claryfying. I agree atheism is a bit retarded but then again everyone is entitled to their own opinions and lifestyle especially in the western world were tolerance and courtesy are mandatory.

Again. I am not against religion but I do dislike organized religion particulary catholicism were corruption and strong dogma has been the norm for way too long. Many socialists and especially communists have for decades accussed the church of conspiring with dictatorships to keep the people down and out. This is particulary true in south and central america where 5-10% own all the land and rest work for them for petty wages and thus barely existing. Totally unfair!


Originally posted by nenothtu
I grew up in a small town in the appalachian mountains. Every 3 years like clockwork, when the (UMWA) union conrtact was due for re-negotiation, I was treated to the spectacle of all the big wheels from both sides roaring into town, and sparking off a young war. Literally. Therefore I may have a different view of labor unions than you. That doesn't negate your view, but it could provide a different perspective. One year we had 600 state troopers trying (and failing) to maintain the peace in that dinky little area. I wondered who was minding the rest of the state.


Yes labor unions can be violent at times but they must be to protect human dignity and fight for the average person's rights. Just look at the working conditions in china and the rest of the far east. Sweat shops abound...almost like labor camps! People work many, many hours and have little to show for it while companies rack in the dough big time. In fact chineese companies can afford to sell their products very low because of cheap labor.


Originally posted by nenothtu
Regarding nationalized healthcare, I prefer being ripped off by no one. I don't need a government to force me to look after my health, (at times I live a pretty unhealthy life anyhow), and take more money than they already do to insure it. In the hands of private providers, I have the option to either take it or leave it, and so I determine whether or not they get my coin. And I believe I've seen enough of dying and living to make my own choice in the matter. I tend to look after my own, but I will concede that in america, families like that are on the endangered list.
nenothtu out


I can understand your concerns as you are for less government. You and many others have lost faith and the government has given people the right to do so. Change is needed and faith needs to be restored. Faith is not a given...it must be earned!

We may disagree on certain critical issues but you have made some valant points. I hope you have not taken my criticism personal as it was not meant to be. Thanks for the debate!



posted on Sep, 19 2008 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by Vovanich
I just wanted to say that america is the worst country ever and I hate it with passion
good day



hahaha Obviously you are living a spoiled life somewhere on this globe, which actually was made possible by americans. Modern living is a benefit that came about by many in this country.

The fact that you even have access to a computer to spew such idiotic views is laughable.

Do an experiment before regurgitating the views of others (which come on, you obviously don't have first hand experience to be making such a call)..

Go to each of the following countries with nothing but the clothes on your back and see if you can build yourself up to the amount of comforts you no doubt take for granted now w/in 3 years.

a) Mexico
b) Haiti
c) Zambia
d) America

Report your findings of which country was most helpful in seeing that you at the least had your necessities taken care of. Hmmm... I bet you already know the answer to that question. Think about what you are saying before you say it.

What America is doing (not talking about the individuals, but as a whole) is protecting the interests of its ppl and way of life. Is this right? Not necessarily, but it is obvious from all the black and white statements in this thread that very few ppl know what it really takes to be a leader. Often time, ppl label things in stark contradiction w/out giving thought to WHY there are grey issues.

One good thing SO FAR, although I can see how this will be changing thanks to all those who refuse to see things from other perspectives, about America is that even at the present moment, we have the ability to improve our situation whereas there are millions of ppl living under regimes that won't even allow them the most basic of human needs.

America is not the worst country and remember that as you are enjoying comforts and a way of life made possible by this "horrible" country.



(sorry for the off topic post)



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