Sharia courts operating in Britain

reply to post by DJMessiah



Muslims are also killing Muslims in Afghanistan, and Iraq.

sectarian violence!

I agree the media portrays any freedom fighter against an establishment as an insurgent, insurrectionist or terrorist.

but i say again, did anyone moan when the Muslims were helped in Bosnia and Kuwait?

Did anyone really moan when the taliban was ousted?

consider this then

3 Muslim countries helped and one that has a population that is unhappy (out of the general population, the taliban is an entity in its own right)

so 2/3 of the time we have been helpful

david

i dont think poeple ar egetting afull grasp on this so let me expain a little

Inteh Uk we have a protestant Monarch and tghe law is based around it

Christianity Its taking a battering from Human rights on all sorts of issues.

However some issue have a shared value. The ideals that Christians are no longer allowed to voice are allowed under Sharia Law

The UN has stated that it will not accept criticism of Sharia Law

On June 16, 2008, UNHRC president Doru Romulus Costea announced that criticism of Sharia law will not be tolerated by the UNHRC, based on the complaints and pressure by Islamist delegates to the UNHRC

can you imagine the power that Islam is wielding to get the UN to do this?

whilst the Pro PC brigade are shouting freedom and tolerance it is paradoxically being taken away on the other hand beacuse of them

Freedom for Muslims to have Sharia Law? Oh but we cant disagree with their stance on this that and the other, the UN says so.

Infinite summed the true situation very well on the first page of this thread. To recap;

If two Muslims wish to settle a dispute relating to property or matrimonial matters, they are free to do so via a Sharia court or recognised Mosque Committee, just as Orthodox Jews have been able to do in the UK for decades (Beth Din Courts).

The British Judicial system also encourages this form of arbitration for couples seeking divorce.

None of these 'Courts' or arbiters have ascendancy over British judicial process or Courts.

All these 'Courts' and committees must observe English Law, including sex equality laws.

If following an agreement in one of these courts, a party reneges on an arbitration agreement, that 'Court' can go a Judicial Court to seek enforcement.

No one is obliged to use these courts. At no time do they surrender their rights under English Law. If they are unhappy with the verdict they can still pursue a claim through County or high Courts. English Law remains supreme.

So lets all take a deep breath and calm down.

Thank you Fang!

This thread needed a voice of reason. Some people are apparently very naive and/or terrified of things that are "foreign" or different from themselves. Glad to see someone is using a higher thought process.....starred ya.

reply to post by neformore


hello there

slightly different the Beth Din has not sought nor is it recognised under English Law

source

And in the case of divorce, the parties must still obtain a civil divorce alongside the religious one."

All criminal matters are reserved for the UK's state courts, and there is no appetite for change.

source

david

secondly i dont think the UN has said the criticism of the Beth Din is unacceptable.




[edit on 16-9-2008 by drevill]

Originally posted by Grafilthy
Thank you Fang!

This thread needed a voice of reason. Some people are apparently very naive and/or terrified of things that are "foreign" or different from themselves. Glad to see someone is using a higher thought process.....starred ya.

I agree half of the people here probably never had to deal with the problem of foreign related problems. In my town we have had an honour killing, a wanabe terrorist who is now working for our local rail station. I had a Muslim friend due to honour related circumstances have gangs harrass him, threaten to kill him and follow him and kidnap him.
We have an African immigrant under suspicion of killing 3,000 people in a genocide but can not be deported for trial.

We had an African imigrant hack to death two Polish people with a machetti because they played their music loud and yet I have had a Jamican family who have rave parties every month in 90s to pee off the Whites no doubt because of the chip on the shoulder slave heritage.

Add to that constant police calls and loud music at 5am in the morning and risen crimes just because this one family council home decided to move near us. This being all in a small town and you can go to London for the larger scale version of this foreign menence because in the end the truth is that the British like the white Americans are not liked when it comes down behind closed doors. If they can find a way to annoy you they will and if a Muslim does not get his way in Britain they will take the people to court, change the law and ban your cross while they get the prayer room they always wanted.

I am not fully British my self so you can have the truth on the plate of how I have seen many examples and the common white folks hate putting up with it that turns them to stereotyping the foreigners as the enemy. But does not mean people from other countries who settle here have to make social points that suggest ''I am a vicim'' statment ''I have the right to annoy you'' attitue and put you in fear to balance the Karma of the past on international desputes.

The truth is a lot want to do well and when the good ones who want to get good jobs don't, its because their own uncivilised minority groups gives them a bad impression. Then the people who employ don't employ them and circle of hate continues and work policies to hire an equal amount of foreigners are made into law. A law which people use to prove they are not racist.

A lot of people who come to the UK don't like the British people or way or life, either through some type of international history, through smug self righteousness because of religeous morals or because its cool to be an outsider hating the majority. Then add their own social problems that the British people have to clear up which turn out to make the White Britsih people to be people as interfering. A lot are out to suck dry the system whilst taking you down with it anyway.

The UK society will implode, you can be kind all you want but sometimes you have to teach the pet dog some manners before it bites or what ever species of animal comes into your house with differnt needs.


[edit on 16-9-2008 by The time lord]

What's happening to the UK is made all the sadder when you think of their rich heritage, and the fact that the British, at least the older generations, are good people.

The UK is a prime example of what happens when liberal insanity is allowed to spread its evil completely unopposed, and it must serve as a lesson to us here in the US.

Ignoring the Miner's Strike and the Poll Tax fiasco, the British are typically not a rebellious people, and they are certainly not likely to resist any change that is gradual and insidious, such as that which they are facing with liberalism.

The effectiveness of simply being branded a racist in the UK (which is now the equivalent of being a pedophile) is breathtaking, it stiffles all debate and trumps any other argument. It will silence even the most ardent critic.

Any attempt to address the Muslim problem is therefore effectively silenced before it gathers any momentum, but the Muslims are not similarly silenced, in point of fact they are emboldened.

You'll know when the UK is finally cooked. That will occur when the Muslims demand that pubs and off licenses in predominantly Muslim areas are forced to close. The British love of drinking is one of the last sacrosanct areas, so when selected boozers begin to close their doors because of pressure from Muslims, the sun really will have set on the British empire.

Ultimately, it's all too late for the British, we can only watch and shake our heads, but it is imperative that we learn from their mistakes, and prevent the same social nightmare from occuring here in the US.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Retseh]

reply to post by Retseh

reply to post by neformore


To be fair......

I'm American and that is not the way I see it. Don't forget, most of these Fox News watchin' rabid anti-liberals are from the lesser educated, rural, podunk, midwest and southern US. There are smart people there, but most still "cling to god and guns". You would have a very tough time finding one of these in Seattle...

So please....I don't want to be another "stupid American". The worst part is that the rest of the world sees us in exactly that way.

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by Retseh

 

What a patronising load of rubbish.

I know....you're an american who hates all things muslim because you've been told to by endless hours of fearmongering, sensationalist press and TV and as such you can't help yourself, but really.....honestly, you have no idea what you are talking about when you write about Britain, or the British people, or what is going on in this country.

I worked with British Muslims for 11 years, right in the dirty, smelly heart of Manchester, just off Deansgate in fact. I know all too painfully well what they think of the native Brits, and what their ultimate agenda is, they were quite open about it. So I think I have some qualifications here.

When your misguided socialist brain tries to decide who is friend and who is foe, take a look at some of the rhetoric coming out of your own Muslim community, are you hearing peace and love, or hatred. Ask the Muslim Council of Great Britain what they think about Jews, or homosexuals, or women's rights, or how about their opinion on the potential introduction of Sharia law in the UK.

These are some bad people, made bad by virtue of their adherence to an evil medieval religion that preaches violence and hatred. Trying to blame any anti-Muslim views on media sensationalism is naive at best, and manipulation at worst. They are the modern day fascists, if I were in advertising I would brand it as "Naziism - now with improved religious zeal".

Then ask yourself why American born muslims are not attacking us, and also why we are not attacking them, and why there is no "Muslim Council of the United States", it must be our inherent racism huh.

Then ask yourself if the policy of appeasement that your government follows towards them has saved lives, or cost lives. You British still seem to have a strong Chamberlain gene.

You and your kind are sorely misguided, and ultimately far more dangerous than your conservative counterparts, and no number of home grown terrorist events will convince you of your errors. You will defend the insanity until you finally emigrate to Australia, Canada, or the US - never once admitting fault.

Perhaps that's why there is such a large number of your countrymen living here in the US. One of them painted my house the other month, he told me that he wasn't the kind of person to say bad things about the UK, I pointed out that he did that when he moved here. Perhaps it's our "endless hours of fearmongering, sensationalist press and TV" that attracts them, or could it just be that we are not the ones who are really bonkers. Perish the thought.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Retseh]

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Retseh]

In the end if thw West does not preserve its freedoms then there will be no other places to find it and the oppressive governments that impose communism, dictatorships and Sharia laws will overtake all open countries of Democracies. So we have to keep the two forces of nature seperate before freedom to live and think for your self becomes a crime.

Don't forget our own governments have their fair of curruption but no way is it bigger than the the fear of thought crime taught by Communist China and Sharia laws. China abborts babies who could have a slight defect to purify the nation. Not allowing religious freedom and spirituality. The Middle East bans and oppresses other religions and destroys any past evidence of pre Islamic history. Many religious groups left in those countries are from pre Islamic tribes including the ancient buildings of the churches. But new ones and new converts are outlawed and your thoughts of sexual inuedos even looking at a woman is banned as thought crime.

We need to preserve democratic freedoms but I find if people want to be spiritual without forcing it as a law then Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism can co exist in a domocracy without people killing each other or changing the laws from within.

Originally posted by Psychopump
Unbelievable!

Can anyone name a Muslim country where two brits can have their dispute settled in a "western" court? Of course not.

This in itself is a travesty against justice.

Maybe if your governments stop supporting those dictators who rule those Muslim countries than maybe just maybe two brits can have their dispute settled in a "western" court? At least let them choose which path to take. In the eyes of west Muslims are portrayed as soooo stupid that they are not even allowed to choose who they want to be ruled by lol. I mean common you talk about Democracy and freedome but when Hamas comes to power no, no, no. Sanctions

Stop complaining, if you want to call yourself free than stop complaining. that's the freedom Muslims have in the Western country which does not go against anyones rights.

Muslims themselves don't have any freedom in Muslim countries than why complain about two brits in a Muslim country, wierd observation.

Britain is already a Multicultural society, get used to it. It's very similar to New Zealand.

If you want it to be the way it was before than well vote for the KKK. They are the only group that can help you now, not the Labour party Jeeez they are infected with GREEN PEACE members

reply to post by Ownification


Britain is not a multicultural nation. "Our" government might say it is but it isn't. It is a multicultural disjointed nation within which nationalism is rising very rapidly. The British are very vexed at their alienation from their own land, parliament and culture.

I don't see believers in the Hindu, Sikh and Jewish beliefs keeping their communities separate to the rest of the U.K. I don't see them imposing their beliefs and cultural ways onto others. I don't see them attempting to manipulate the rest of the U.K into becoming a Sikh, Jewish or Hindu nation. They invite others to learn their traditions and not to forcefully eat them.

Tell us, if Muslims are so willing to peacefully co-exist alongside other faiths and traditions, why do Muslims so frequently object to British people displaying images of pigs or the cross? Tell us of a Muslim nation that doesn't feel it is a victim of its neighbors?

To make my point clear over this, if I didn't like black people then I wouldn't go to Africa; if I didn't like people with blue eyes then I would live close to the equator; if I didn't want to see plants then I wouldn't live where plants grow. Do you understand my point? If Muslims are not happy to live within our adaptable laws and our adaptable cultures then they shouldn't live in non-Muslim nations.

Many British people are not happy with our laws but they don't band together and demand their own legal system that suits their needs.

Just to let you know, I'm not fully British nor do I feel British but I still live within Britain's laws regardless that I neither recognize its government's authority nor its legal system's integrity.

[edit on 16/9/08 by Rapacity]

reply to post by Grafilthy

The popular perception of sharia law is one of brutal punishments carried out by hardline states. But, as Dan Bell discovers, the backstreets of Britain are full of Islamic courts ruling on everything from banking and alcopops to forced marriage and divorce.

In the back room of a converted corner shop in east London, Sheikh Maulana Abu Sayeed is trying to save another marriage. He stretches across his desk and gently holds the hand of a young man with five o'clock shadow, whose eyes are red and swollen from crying. For more than an hour the man has been pleading with Sayeed to ask his ex-wife to give him a second chance. And for more than an hour, Sayeed has been quietly telling him that if his ex-wife does not want him back, there is nothing he can do. As the fraught meeting continues next door, one of Sayeed's colleagues at the Islamic Sharia Council in Leyton explains with a shrug, "He has come to us to ask for help, but if the woman is adamant and she doesn't want to reunite, what can we do?"

The image of a Muslim man pleading with his imam for a second chance with his wife, only to be told that it is his wife's decision, is not what most people would expect from a sharia court. But his case is typical of hundreds each year dealt with by a group of scholars who provide judgments on sharia law for Muslims across the country.

Sharia law has not only become synonymous with brutal punishments meted out by hardline Islamic states; it has also come to be seen as a source of oppression within Muslim communities across Europe. The Qur'an has been used to justify forced marriages, honour killings and even the call to holy war by fundamentalist clerics such as Abu Hamza. But sharia also has another face. Islamic law is a code for living that governs every aspect of life, from which food is halal, to donations to the poor and the proper way to dress. The Muslims who consult the Islamic Sharia Council are not asking for permission to stone adulterous wives, or chop off the hands of thieves, but simply for day-to-day guidance on living in accordance with their faith.

Full article can be read hear,

www.guardian.co.uk...


Sharia Law,as with many others and not just in Muslim cultures,have those who will abuse the law to get what they want.

Every fiber of my being screams that it is wrong to whip or kill a man or a woman guilty of fornication,for example,but Muslim Laws come from their faith not from the state because in Muslim countries politics and religion are one and the same and we in the west find it difficult to understand such a culture.

It should also be remembered that western governments are guilty of propergander when it comes to Islam.This is is a usual course of action during times of conflict.Muslim extremists manipulate the laws they claim to respect,such people are a small majority compared to the millions of Muslims who do respect their laws.

It is not our way,in our eyes some Islamic laws are against human rights,but that does not give us a right to change them because,in this case,the changing of the laws would be the changing of a religion.Would people in the west be happy to stand by while Muslims changed our laws and our faiths?
I don't think so.


Honor killings in the UK have been condemned by Muslims because no such concept actually exists in Islam.Again,this comes down to manipulation of Islamic Law.

Sister, it’s a well-known fact that Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it. In the Glorious Qur’an, Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

`Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community." (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

“There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honor killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings.

First of all, in order to sanction killing, it must be through a binding verdict issued by an authoritative law court. Individuals themselves have no authority either to judge cases or pass judgments. Therefore, a Muslim should not sanction such killing because doing so will be leading to the rule of the law of the jungle. A civilized society cannot be run by such laws.”

“Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

The so-called “honor killing” is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.

It goes without saying that people are not entitled to take the law in their own hands, for it’s the responsibility of the Muslim State and its concerned bodies to maintain peace, security, etc., and to prevent chaos and disorder from creeping into the Muslim society.”

“In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law other than the officers who are in charge.

Honor killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment.”

www.islamonline.net.../FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543392


There are an estimated 1.2 billion Muslims in the world,you cannot tar them all with the same brush.









[edit on 17-9-2008 by jakyll]

[edit on 17-9-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by Retseh

Ignoring the Miner's Strike and the Poll Tax fiasco, the British are typically not a rebellious people, and they are certainly not likely to resist any change that is gradual and insidious, such as that which they are facing with liberalism.

It would appear you need to brush up on your British history my American friend.

Many protests in modern times have been kept quiet and out of the press.This is nothing new though.The Peterloo Massacre(1819) was kept out of English history books for over a 100yrs and it wasn't until the 1980's when a plaque was allowed to be put up to commemerate the event at the place it happened,St Peters Field,Manchester.

I worked with British Muslims for 11 years, right in the dirty, smelly heart of Manchester, just off Deansgate in fact. I know all too painfully well what they think of the native Brits, and what their ultimate agenda is, they were quite open about it. So I think I have some qualifications here.

I was born in Manchester and have lived here all my life,so i guess that makes my qualifications better than yours,and i know many Muslim families who have lived here for generations.They are part of the communities and intergrate quite happily with everyone.More importantly,they condemn Muslim fundamentalists and hate the fact that they receive abuse from the trouble caused by these so called "defenders of the faith."









[edit on 17-9-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by neformore

I do agree that there are some racial issues in the UK, but oddly they stem more from people "thinking" that they will offend someone - usually without asking - hence the stupidity of some councils who try and change the names of festivals etc.

Very true,on both counts.


Last year my council said it was racist and would upset the ethnic communities for a local taxi rank to fly the English flag during the week St George's Day took place.

They complained on and on until some bright spark pointed out that the taxi rank was owned by a British Pakistani family and all the taxi drivers were British Pakistani too.

Do-gooders,you gotta love 'em!

This an article I just found, it kind of expresses the truth from within the Muslim community as it is because it takes one Muslim to comeout and say it to hear the truth. My words are right in the previous posts it seems because a lot of foreign communities play victim, not always Muslims but in general.

From Sky news website:

'UK Muslims Have Victim Mentality'

British Muslims have a "victim mentality" and need to take greater responsibility for their lives, according to a Labour MP

Sadiq Khan, a Muslim himself, says many in the UK are more concerned with foreign policy than with problems affecting their own lives.

In a report for the Fabian Society think tank, the assistant whip listed a series of issues which British Muslims needed to tackle in order to integrate better.

This included:

:: All mosques should consider allowing women in and should tackle sexism;

:: Muslims who don't speak English should learn;

:: The Muslim community should condemn forced marriages and honour killings.

Mr Khan said: "A failure to deal with the inequalities of British Muslim women flies in the face of any attempts to build a socially just and fair society.

"But it also has serious consequences for preventing extremism, given that the majority of the extremist and radical ideologies that lead young men to turn themselves into human bombs are also deeply misogynist."

He said ministers needed to "reconnect" with Muslims and accused Labour of having a "fleeting but never committed" relationship with Muslim groups.


We need to take more responsibility for our own families, ignore those who propagate conspiracy theories, and above all we need to leave behind our victim mentality.

The Tooting MP, whose parents were Pakistani immigrants, also criticised the barriers Muslims face in society.

As a group they are disproportionately affected by poverty, inequality and discrimination, he said.

He said businesses should have a "positive duty" to crack down on religious discrimination and called for schools to be as mixed as possible to "break the cycle of accidental segregation".

But Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of Muslim youth organisation, the Ramadhan
Foundation, said the Government and Mr Khan were out of touch with grassroots Muslims.

"He should be pushing the Government to deal with real issues like poverty, crime, racism and Islamophobia," Mr Shafiq said.

"We do not have a victim mentality but are victims of this Government's failure to deal with real issues, issues around poverty, tackling the underlying causes of why there is terrorism in this country, issues around exclusion of certain communities."

[edit on 17-9-2008 by The time lord]

[edit on 17-9-2008 by The time lord]

Originally posted by Rapacity
reply to post by Ownification

 

Britain is not a multicultural nation. "Our" government might say it is but it isn't. It is a multicultural disjointed nation within which nationalism is rising very rapidly. The British are very vexed at their alienation from their own land, parliament and culture.

Point taken OK OK

I don't see believers in the Hindu, Sikh and Jewish beliefs keeping their communities separate to the rest of the U.K. I don't see them imposing their beliefs and cultural ways onto others. I don't see them attempting to manipulate the rest of the U.K into becoming a Sikh, Jewish or Hindu nation. They invite others to learn their traditions and not to forcefully eat them.

I don't get it, you still watch FOX news? I guess you still believe that they hate you and America because of your freedom. Hopefully not because I dno't want to waste my time.

Tell us, if Muslims are so willing to peacefully co-exist alongside other faiths and traditions, why do Muslims so frequently object to British people displaying images of pigs or the cross? Tell us of a Muslim nation that doesn't feel it is a victim of its neighbors?

Yep they did it for 2000 years with Jews and Christians all accross Muslims countries.

Why you get angry about Muslims objecting to what you do is beyond me.

Muslim countries are mostly ruled by dictators which your government supports sooo dearly, let's not talk about what is going on there.


To make my point clear over this, if I didn't like black people then I wouldn't go to Africa; if I didn't like people with blue eyes then I would live close to the equator; if I didn't want to see plants then I wouldn't live where plants grow. Do you understand my point? If Muslims are not happy to live within our adaptable laws and our adaptable cultures then they shouldn't live in non-Muslim nations.

Thanks for making your point clearer I know what you mean.

Muslims are more active in community work, they always demand more rights for themselves, well the good part is that you can do the same. All different groups of people got the same rights, stop complaining to us and go talk to your community leaders.

Many British people are not happy with our laws but they don't band together and demand their own legal system that suits their needs.

Why shouldn't they, isn't that what Democracy is about? Than again who knows, Democracy is evolving over time, guess what guys this is true, there is a Democracy which supports dictatorship

Just to let you know, I'm not fully British nor do I feel British but I still live within Britain's laws regardless that I neither recognize its government's authority nor its legal system's integrity.

[edit on 16/9/08 by Rapacity]

Sorry you don't have the right to complain if you are not full British. Case closed jokes

[edit on 113030p://30b9 by Ownification]