Why must you insist reality is illusion?

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark

Originally posted by Harman
It would be different if it was a illusion where you are the only real person around but that is not the case at the moment. (i think)

If you were the only "real" person would you really want to know?

I have thought about Solipsism and it would be pretty fun. And there is the (than) fact that i am obviously able to make me forget i'm the only real me around so yeah i would want to know and when i'm tired knowing it i'll forget and do this again . (or something else ofcourse)

Originally posted by Harman

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark

Originally posted by Harman
It would be different if it was a illusion where you are the only real person around but that is not the case at the moment. (i think)

If you were the only "real" person would you really want to know?

I have thought about Solipsism and it would be pretty fun. And there is the (than) fact that i am obviously able to make me forget i'm the only real me around so yeah i would want to know and when i'm tired knowing it i'll forget and do this again

. (or something else ofcourse)

I've always suspected this whole crazy scheme was hatched from just such a thought. Which sometimes makes me wonder why wouldn't we want to see it all as an illusion. At least the parts of it that aren't real

reply to post by TravelerintheDark

No, no, do not delude yourselves.

We are not your dream's creation.

Originally posted by vasaga
Why is everyone so lazy to do some research themselves? This is something that is commonly known you know?

www.youtube.com...

Not lazy, just denying 'ignorance' (not calling you ignorant though) , just because i've heard conflicting stories... That the 99.9% of empty space is actually occupied by a whole host of passing waves and static energy and the like.

So what you are basically saying is apart from the trillions of unseen atoms and the like, and beside the billions of radio waves, UV rays, X rays, etc etc....then there's NOTHING?


Or have we just not discovered the other side of things???


[edit on 14-9-2008 by mr-lizard]

Originally posted by Astyanax
No, no, do not delude yourselves.

We are not your dream's creation.

That's what they keep telling me, so then I wonder why should I listen to them?

I suppose because my perception is my creation. Just as your perception is yours. So as I see it you are a part of me that I might not know yet, and vice versa.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Not lazy, just denying 'ignorance' (not calling you ignorant though) , just because i've heard conflicting stories... That the 99.9% of empty space is actually occupied by a whole host of passing waves and static energy and the like.

So what you are basically saying is apart from the trillions of unseen atoms and the like, and beside the billions of radio waves, UV rays, X rays, etc etc....then there's NOTHING?


Or have we just not discovered the other side of things???


[edit on 14-9-2008 by mr-lizard]

Well sorry i called you lazy. But a lot of people are, guess you're not

Anyway, uh.. Everything is a wave, no matter at what energy or radiation or whatever you look at. Now, a wave is something intangible. When you drop a stone in the water, you only see the effect of the wave on the water. The waves themselves can not be seen or measured. So, this world in which we live in is completely contructed from different intangible waves. So that is about the only thing that exists at a fundamental level in our universe. All we see is the manifestation of intangible waves.

Now, I'm not saying that waves are everything there is and besides that there's nothing, because we do not know that. That is as far as science has come today. This is just the current concept of humanity and our limits. So, in the end it's probable that there are a lot more stuff out there, but we're not advanced enough to perceive them, both physically, mentally and consciously.

reply to post by vasaga


Actually it's a gross misunderstanding on your part. Seems like your reading into the mumbo jumbo new agey explanations for science. Tsk Tsk... and you dare call people lazy? Shame on you!

I'm willing to bet you watched what the bleep do we know, and possibly enjoyed it huh?

It's true that people are lazy when it comes to learning about things, in the context that they get a certain idea stuck in their head and consider that an 'end all' scenario and so only look for information that 'confirms' that particular belief. Truth is, what we know is constantly changing and what we think we know is often times wrong. Quantum mechanics is a very tricky subject and really hard to grasp for the average person who only does a rudimentary search on it. Yes, it does APPEAR to say reality is an illusion, but delve into it and you learn that the real mechanics behind the various processes going on does not say this.

People love to sensationalize things because sensationalism and entertainment SELL. The industry knows that people are too lazy and mostly gullible and will generally just believe whatever the hell they are told. Kudos for falling in that group!

Originally posted by sirnex

 

Actually it's a gross misunderstanding on your part. Seems like your reading into the mumbo jumbo new agey explanations for science. Tsk Tsk... and you dare call people lazy? Shame on you!

I'm willing to bet you watched what the bleep do we know, and possibly enjoyed it huh?

Oyeah? What did i really misunderstand?? And yes, i enjoyed it, not because of the science in it, but because of the message that we do not value our consciousness enough. Anything wrong with that?

It's true that people are lazy when it comes to learning about things, in the context that they get a certain idea stuck in their head and consider that an 'end all' scenario and so only look for information that 'confirms' that particular belief. Truth is, what we know is constantly changing and what we think we know is often times wrong. Quantum mechanics is a very tricky subject and really hard to grasp for the average person who only does a rudimentary search on it. Yes, it does APPEAR to say reality is an illusion, but delve into it and you learn that the real mechanics behind the various processes going on does not say this.

The mechanics themselves are basicly nothing more than a world of chance

People love to sensationalize things because sensationalism and entertainment SELL. The industry knows that people are too lazy and mostly gullible and will generally just believe whatever the hell they are told. Kudos for falling in that group!

Lol..... Yeah man. Whatever.

Originally posted by SteveR
Conversely, how can a dimension (whether dream state, matrix-esque or whatever

) be more 'real' than the space me and you occupy right now?

Furthermore, what does the word 'illusion' actually mean?

If you are developing a philosophy that determines and discerns 'illusion' I would love to have this explained to me.

Many thanks

[edit on 2008/9/14 by SteveR]

Illusion is a distortion of reality. A strong illusion produced by a compentent illusionist can become its own reality for a finite period of time. But not for those that know what's going on. Those who know the truth, even though they have to contend with the illusion, they also know that it has an expiration date. If it were really real it would have no expiration.

I know you think that the world you live in is real, but what makes it not real is that it is not self sustaining; someone, presumably the person who created the illusion in the first place, has to recreate the same conditions that created the illusion.

When illusions begin to collapse war is inevitable as the illusionist tries to maintain the illusion.

Real life application:

In the early 70s Mystics captured the engines of reality and used them to create this world you've lived in for the last 37 years. They lost control over the engines of reality about 7 years ago and started this war; hoping to reestablish the illusion. They failed.

The last engine which allows them to cast their illusion will go free on October 13th of next month. So, we'll get to kill the remaining illusionists. It'll be fun. Wait and see.

Im sitting here at my computer screen, looking at the ATS webpage. Of course, if I´d look a bit closer I´d see its not actually a page and pictures but just a bunch of pixels.

And if I take a closer look, its not even pixels but just a bunch of waveforms.

And if I look closer...blablabla.

As long as I desire to communicate with "SteveR" there is no sense in reminding myself of the illusionary nature of these pictures and letters that make up a website. Its irrelevant that its "all just pixels" and "not real".

Since I can experience something (in this case communication with SteveR) there also is no reason to say "its just an illusion" or "its not real".

In conclusion then, there is no such thing as "real" or "illusion" but only various levels of context or levels of relevance.

At least imho.

reply to post by vasaga

Oyeah? What did i really misunderstand?? And yes, i enjoyed it, not because of the science in it, but because of the message that we do not value our consciousness enough. Anything wrong with that?

The science in it? Are you kidding? Those scientist interviewed were misquoted and misconstrued and are rather pissed off about it. Do some rudimentary research before you call people lazy!

[EDIT]

See how I was able to peg you right away as having watched that movie and enjoyed despite this being the first time I have ever seen one of your post's? Neat huh? Says a lot if you think about it, the differences between what you know and what I know.

The mechanics themselves are basicly nothing more than a world of chance

More complex than that.

Lol..... Yeah man. Whatever.

Exactly what kind of a response is that? Are you saying you disagree with the notion that sensationalism and entertainment sell? Are you willing to go against the media industry and tell them that they are wrong? Even the damn news sensationalizes and entertains to draw your attention to whatever issue they bring up.

You might seriously want to reconsider calling people lazy when you yourself show immense laziness. Just because you WANT the world to be this mysterious magical place doesn't mean that it IS. Looking for ONLY information that confirms your BELIEF doesn't make that belief a REALITY.

We all exist in the same reality, you can't make things happen or appear with thought alone, and the universe is very very real indeed.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by sirnex]

reply to post by bruxfain


Sounds like the beginnings of a great fantasy novel, my second fav next to sci-fi. You should consider developing the story line and plot more. If you don't want to, can I get your permission to do so myself? I'm serious, if you won't I will, no sense in letting a money maker idea like that go to waste!

[edit on 14-9-2008 by sirnex]

reply to post by SteveR


Maybe this can give you some perspective on the matter:

nl.youtube.com...

This, and other experiments and theories suggest/prove that reality and matter are in the eye of the beholder.

The universe is a wave of potential that solidifies into matter/particles as a direct result of a consciousness perceiving it.

Everyones reality is real on this level, but on the level of our higher self, life on Earth is an illusion. Imo.



[edit on 14/9/08 by enigmania]

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by bruxfain

 

Sounds like the beginnings of a great fantasy novel, my second fav next to sci-fi. You should consider developing the story line and plot more. If you don't want to, can I get your permission to do so myself? I'm serious, if you won't I will, no sense in letting a money maker idea like that go to waste!

[edit on 14-9-2008 by sirnex]

I personally use it for defense planning, but if you want to make it into a book, movie, etc. that would be fantastic. We can collaborate, I've got enough plots angles to create a saga. When I first had this feeling that this was what is happening on earth, I said that if I am wrong I can make it into a major sci-fi franchise. Unfortunately, I don't have the right artistic connections.

reply to post by bruxfain


I wouldn't say that it's really good for 'defense planning' as it is a very weak statement with nothing backing it up. If you already have that much thought put into it and lack the "know-how", try the snowflake method to writing a story. Really sounds like something I would read, but if you already have that much thought put into it, then your better off going for it. Really sounds like a money maker!

www.advancedfictionwriting.com...

reply to post by enigmania


Actually it's a gross misinterpretation of the experiments and what they mean and what goes on fundamentally behind them. That clip comes from the movie "What the bleep do we know", which basically misrepresented scientist and what they were saying during the interviews. Certain thing's the scientists had said (including in regards to this experiment) were purposefully edited out because it invalidates all the claims made in that movie.

Do a search on it before you subscribe to the twisted thing's they are trying to pass off as truth and reality.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by bruxfain

 

I wouldn't say that it's really good for 'defense planning' as it is a very weak statement with nothing backing it up. If you already have that much thought put into it and lack the "know-how", try the snowflake method to writing a story. Really sounds like something I would read, but if you already have that much thought put into it, then your better off going for it. Really sounds like a money maker!

www.advancedfictionwriting.com...

Oh no that's where you are wrong, it works great for defense planning because it doesn't require anyone to accept it, so I don't have to waste my time concerning myself with what people who don't know anything believe to be true. The only person who has to believe me is my son, but everyone is subject to it whether they like it or not. Do you think Lehman Brothers just collapsed because they forgot how to invest?

Nevertheless, my grandfather did something similar when he worked with Mark Twain, most notably, on The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and you know how successful that book was. Everything works out for me either way.

Originally posted by SteveR
Conversely, how can a dimension (whether dream state, matrix-esque or whatever

) be more 'real' than the space me and you occupy right now?

Furthermore, what does the word 'illusion' actually mean?

If you are developing a philosophy that determines and discerns 'illusion' I would love to have this explained to me.

Many thanks

[edit on 2008/9/14 by SteveR]

Great question. I just thought of an analogy to teach myself an answer.

A million floating houses. One SteveR.

Each house is a universe, but eventually SteveR grows tired of staring at his own walls, and becomes addicted with gazing out the window of his universe. Outside the window SteveR notices the other houses floating about. He soon develops concepts to better understand the other houses. Eventually SteveR realizes that he actually exists somewhere within all of those other houses, and he begins to glorify such concepts, making them seem more real, when in reality they are not. The illusion is actually a reflection, but without one of the two showing proof. IMO, as always.

Furthermore, my question would remain, how do we better understand how we exist in other universes while only having one comprehension of self?

Again, great question.

AAC

I like how Skyfloating broke it down, so I'd like to use that as a jumping off point not to change the argument, but rather the context. Because, as I see it the argument of reality vs illusion is really just part of the context we place our world in.

To do that, I'd like to start by pointing out that we mostly follow a certain baseline for our experiences that we can agree on, that which forms the physical experience of our existence. The question I ask myself is, "Does it or doesn't it?". Matter that is.

For me the answer is, "Not really." outside of maintaining my physical presence. Then it becomes an issue of whether or not it's necessary to maintain that presence. I choose to. But I also reserve the right to change my mind about that or anything else. And in due respect, as a responsible being, by accepting my own right I accept the rights of others to do the same. As a responsible being in progress I do my best to do so with the least amount of harm that my intentions as an inquisitive creature will allow.

So I see the ultimate question not as "What interpretation do I accept?" but as "Do I accept the right to make an interpretation?". Because by virtue of sharing this space, whatever its nature, we have the choice to make things as easy or hard for each other as we want.

From here I think the question of reality vs. illusion is easily answered. The reality is that you can feel however you want about anything and everything. The illusion is that we can make everyone else feel the same way.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by TravelerintheDark]

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by enigmania

 

Actually it's a gross misinterpretation of the experiments and what they mean and what goes on fundamentally behind them. That clip comes from the movie "What the bleep do we know", which basically misrepresented scientist and what they were saying during the interviews. Certain thing's the scientists had said (including in regards to this experiment) were purposefully edited out because it invalidates all the claims made in that movie.

Do a search on it before you subscribe to the twisted thing's they are trying to pass off as truth and reality.

Ok now you're just bs-ing. That experiment was perfectly explained and nothing was edited.. If you don't believe me, watch this:

www.youtube.com...

And if you still don't believe that, just see wikipedia plz..

en.wikipedia.org...

And i think you misunderstood me. I never said the world we live in was not real. Ofcourse this world is real. But the way we perceive it isn't.. Never mind alright? You're here playing the smartass like you know everything.


To talk about the other discussions here. A definition of the word "illusion" might be that we see something that's actually not there, or that we only see things partially and not wholy. For example, take this link:

www.michaelbach.de...

Here you see black dots between the lines, which are actually not there. Our mind creates those, and that is an optical illusion. The way we experience the world is not the way the world actually looks like. First of all we are limited to our senses, and besides that, the deeper you go the "less solid" the world becomes.