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If God Is Omnipotent, Than There Is No Freewill

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posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 01:10 PM
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reply to post by AlexG141989
 


Right on, I understand your opinion. I am fully aware of what men have done to the word, how else do you think the world be deceived. To say they were primitive men, because they supposedly attributed "Omni+" to the name I don't quite understand. Should we apply these same titles to George Lucas because he spoke of "the force".

Even if you look at the book as a control tool, which it is to a degree, you must have some respect for it? Perhaps not.

God is everywhere consciousness dwells. You yourself attest to it just being alive. Why worry about it anyway.

The bible is the story of man and how he deals with perfection.....a long, long, road. God knows all because he is all, you, me, her, him, they, us, the ones you hate and the ones you love. He knows no death, therefore he knows no sin. Sin is death, not all of these rules. One rule, live and give life. Anything leading you to drop the blood is sin. This is the only thing God "has no pleasure in the death of sinners". Why? Because, He takes no pleasure in dying. Gotta do the resurrect/recollect the memory thing all over again, and this takes 1000 years to our 1 day. All who come out of the body with no home prepared get to do this and he is judged with us.

It's a simple game of shoots and ladders. Climb the ladder of lifetimes, gain the memory of generations past till, bam they are caught up together with you, your many lives experience manifest in one body...this is the real rapture and recall of those who are loved. On the other hand drop the Baal/blood and start all over again from the wind....

Anyway, I'm waiting for the "I am Omni" quote, that you are basing this assumption off of.

Peace




posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989

You are thinking of God in human terms, which he isn't. God knows you better than you know yourself, so if by chance one time you did choose the health food, God would not have been wrong, because he knew you were about to do that before you knew yourself, but that still doesn't mean you didn't choose. You also have to remember that God is beyond time and space (he created it), he isn't waiting for you to make your decision, he already knows your choice, but through your free will, you still made the decision.


I don't feel like explaining it again, so heres a quote from somebody at another site, who explained it better than I did.


If there is DESTINY..then no matter what choice you would have made...you were still going to wind up in the same exact end position to wherever it was long decided you were going to end up. So you merely had the illusion of choice which affected nothing of the outcome...so in essence you never really had one..because to have true choice...the outcome must be unknown and have causation. If there is destiny...there is no causation...hence GOD is then omniscient.


That is not true, that is purely human thinking within the realm of space/time. Say you made a decision, and then you came back from the future to see yourself make that decision, the future you would know the outcome of your decision, that doesn't mean that you didn't make that decision.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:11 PM
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CaptainG0705 you are obviously captain of a sinking ship. The ship is called "the Atheist." Fellow crew include AlexG and Dave420. Your staunch, stagnant, stubborn atheism will get you nowhere. All that awaits you is the stone cold grave. You have rejected heaven that Jesus offered you and replaced it with your cerebral wanderings. You feel that science has all the answers and foolishly forget that humanity has limitations. Death is one of them. Life energy is another. Humanity cannot create life from inanimate objects. For you CaptainG to suggest that some day science may discover a way shows that you are clueless as to what life is. Life comprises of the supernatural married to the natural. The body without the supernatural spirit is dead. This is not disputable. It is fact! You obviously had a crippled education if you feel that all revolves around the laws of matter!!


LMAO, someone obviously does not read.... No serious atheist has ever said that science has all the answers... I know humanity has limitations...But science may one day discover how to create life from no life.


As for free will; of course we have it! The choice is yours to study hard or loaf around; to do good deeds or bad ones. It is irrelevant whether or not God knows what the outcome will be. He did not influence your decision. The OP must be envious of God's astounding supernatural ability. He obviously did not understand the Adam and Eve story. Humanity should explore their surroundings, develop their understanding but should not try and be God. Humanity has limitations. If a cheetah and a human had a 200 metre race, who do you think would win? A human's speed has its limit. Furthermore a human's cerebrum has its limit. A foolish atheist may ask: well who made God? God is supernatural. You cannot know what God knows. He is mysterious and beyond our understanding; but He loves us. If that is not good enough for the atheist and they persist in knowing intimate details about Him then the atheist can go to hell. While roasting, they can discuss with all the horrible murdering godless people of time past such as Adolph Hitler and his cohorts. There will be no God in hell to ridicule. There will be no Christ to laugh at and to question whether He ever existed. Since you rejected God; He will reject you, and you will go to the place where God is not: hot and hopeless hell.





posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:18 PM
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Right on, I understand your opinion. I am fully aware of what men have done to the word, how else do you think the world be deceived. To say they were primitive men, because they supposedly attributed "Omni+" to the name I don't quite understand. Should we apply these same titles to George Lucas because he spoke of "the force".


What I meant by that is, they wrote that God gave us free will, but they had no idea how giving God omniscience would refute free will. That is what I meant


That is not true, that is purely human thinking within the realm of space/time. Say you made a decision, and then you came back from the future to see yourself make that decision, the future you would know the outcome of your decision, that doesn't mean that you didn't make that decision.


Yes it does mean I didn't make the decision, because I was going to make that decision anyway...



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:33 PM
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I'm pretty much an agnostic scientific determinist, replying how I am exactly because of what I just read, and my prior experience manifesting into what I'm about to type...

Still, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to imagine that God is omnipotent and can therefore give us free will while at the same time knowing exactly what we will do with that free will. Just because the universe is determined/known from Gods view (He created the damn thing supposedly), doesn't mean it's determined from our view (as much as some (I) tend to believe [i.e. have faith in that what is happening is determined by causality] because it's the best we can understand from our insignificant perspective in this obscure corner of the universe).

"God" has no limits. He is omnipotent. He can do anything. It's impossible to disprove or prove. It's beyond the scope of science, logic, or reasoning. It's based purely on faith and belief - two things that don't have to be backed by much evidence, if any.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by logician magician
I'm pretty much an agnostic scientific determinist, replying how I am exactly because of what I just read, and my prior experience manifesting into what I'm about to type...

Still, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to imagine that God is omnipotent and can therefore give us free will while at the same time knowing exactly what we will do with that free will. Just because the universe is determined/known from Gods view (He created the damn thing supposedly), doesn't mean it's determined from our view (as much as some (I) tend to believe [i.e. have faith in that what is happening is determined by causality] because it's the best we can understand from our insignificant perspective in this obscure corner of the universe).

"God" has no limits. He is omnipotent. He can do anything. It's impossible to disprove or prove. It's beyond the scope of science, logic, or reasoning. It's based purely on faith and belief - two things that don't have to be backed by much evidence, if any.

Brilliant and witty(sloppy, but tasty).



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:56 PM
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I tend to believe that god is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent. I judge this based on the imperfections and the non-optimization of the world around us. "Sin" is not a good excuse for why we have genetic diseases, disasters, for the extinction of the dinosaurs, etc. The problem with believing religion is that there is absolutely no metric for determining accuracy. We can only perceive the physical world, and god by definition is beyond and outside of the physical world. So anything that anyone has to say about god is pure speculation. If god truly wanted humanity to know him in order to save their eternal souls, he would though direct means. He would not rely on subjective second hand accounts.

While I do believe in god, I am humble enough to recognize that I do not know the "absolute truth" of him. I believe he is a creator god, and on this basis, I think it's better to know him though the study and observance of the natural world since that is common convergence point between reality and god. Studying our reality will likely never reveal who exactly god is, but I think it can tell us what god most definitely is not.

I would liken our relationship to god as that between a programmer and a simulation. Within the next 50 to 100 years we will have the processing power and the software ability to create a functionally conscious AI in a simulated environment. If that AI couldn't tell that it was in a simulation, and it had formed a religion, would that AI recognize the programmer as omnipotent - since it can only interact with the environment, but the programmer "god" created everything. Perhaps it's simply a misunderstanding and an assumed omnipotence where any apparent errors simply being chalked up to not knowing the "gods" divine plan.

I would think that this would be a far more likely scenario than what is offered by religion, because unlike religion, we actually have evidence that this may be possible because we are on the verge of accomplishing this ourselves.

On another note, I don't believe that god created the universe for our benefit. There's far too much out there both beyond our current physical scale and in the scale of history. Why god would create such a simulation, I couldn't say. I think that it's fairly evident that (if it's true), that we are a byproduct of this system that was set in motion - and not a desired outcome. To assume we are is simply a new form of geocentracism wherein the Earth may not be the center of the universe, but we are the center of God's attention. This doesn't mean that god does not love or appreciate us. It may just be a matter of scale. The beauty of humanity and other intelligent life is that, with us, the universe has become observant and self-aware. He may very well appreciate that as a common or uncommon characteristic, or he may not notice us at all - especially if intelligent life is highly common in the universe. A scientist working diligently on a cure for a disease may hold a great deal of affection for his work and his cultures which lend clues to the cure, but it's a far cry from having a personal relationship with them.

Also, I use the term "he" in a generic sense out of common usage. I don't necessarily believe that god is male, or that our concept of gender would even apply. Nor could I say that there is a singular god, as polytheism may be a more accurate model.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 07:59 PM
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Free will? I can't even find the self who is supposed to have free will. All I can come up with is appearances, always changing but never permanent.



posted on Sep, 16 2008 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION
 


Perfect....
"I create ALL things new"....or it would be real boring.

Peace



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 03:23 AM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
Yes it does mean I didn't make the decision, because I was going to make that decision anyway...


That statement itself is a contradiction, and you are basing it on your perception and perspective of time, from within time itself. It's like saying you understand the third dimension while living in a 2D world, and everything you know and perceive is based on a 2D reality. You are either the smartest human who ever lived, or you are deluding yourself into thinking you understand things no human alive currently understands.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
reply to post by AlexG141989
 



Anyway, I'm waiting for the "I am Omni" quote, that you are basing this assumption off of.

Peace

Hope you don't mind my butting in. I found these interesting verses that seem to insinuate omnipresence --

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 10:05 AM
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Congratulations, you have just stumbled upon the end all be all argument that a theist can never answer. I have asked preachers, pastors, reverends, priests, nuns, etc. that very question and never gotten a straight answer other than "God is mysterious and you should just...blah". The largest hole in the Bible is the simplest application of logic there is on that subject.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 10:10 AM
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A God is anything you want to make it,whatever you put first in your life is your God,it could even be yourself.If your looking for a creator you have to prove that to yourself,anyone can tell you, but thats all it would be,them telling you.

Why do you need proof that there is a God? What's the point? Would you live your life differently if you had indisputable proof?


This is your logical fallacy right here... you are assuming that if he is real we could prove it. HOW do you KNOW that?
You can't. We barely understand the physical workings of our own world and quantum theory is complicating and clarifying that more all the time... how could you logically expect the nature of GOD to be within our comprehension to a degree that we could offer a logical Proof?
It is also possible that, if there is a god, HE specifically and intentionally set things up so there COULD NOT ever be any *Proof* of His existence! It may be "part of the game" so to speak.

So, you see, you cannot just work from the assumption that if there is a God we should be able to prove it... that is simply illogical.


"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature
of things we shall never know." -Albert Einstein



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by Torsten
Congratulations, you have just stumbled upon the end all be all argument that a theist can never answer. I have asked preachers, pastors, reverends, priests, nuns, etc. that very question and never gotten a straight answer other than "God is mysterious and you should just...blah". The largest hole in the Bible is the simplest application of logic there is on that subject.

A Googlian Monk pointed the way.


David and Jeremiah refer to God in this way a lot, if you look for it.
You can find references in Job, too.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 02:35 PM
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When we question whether we make choices, in my opinion it enables us to make better "choices". We become more of a conscious individual. The more you know, are you free? It was once said "the truth shall set you free". But free is such a misunderstood word. We have our minds yet we get information from our environment. From a metaphorical standpoint we are playing pong.



posted on Sep, 17 2008 @ 05:15 PM
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I went through alcoholism treatment thirty three years ago.
They had bibles in our rooms, as it was a Catholic Hospital.
I got angry and was throwing my things in my suitcase to leave.
Their bible fell upon the bed and was open at this passage:

"Who has woe? Who has Sorrow?, Who has Contentions? Who has babbling? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes?
They that tarry long at the wine; they that seek mixed drinks and strong wine.
Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it gives its colour in the cup, when it moves aright.
In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like a viper.
Thine eyes shall behold strange things, and thy heart shall utter perverse things.
Yes you will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth on the top of a mast.
They have beaten me, thou shall say, and i felt it not, they have stricken me and i was not sick.When shall I awake? I will seek yet another drink."

God has spoken to me.

Needless to say I stayed and completed treatment and have not touched a drink since then.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 04:35 AM
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Yeah but you gotto look at it this way.

God is all knowing & all powerful. But he also don't give a jack!!

So we still do have free will, cause he won't interfere.

Goes without saying, people worship this guy, but dose he ever actually do anything fo them?

Guess he knows all my dirty little secrets, but I don't see him sending me to the corner for them. And if & when I end up before him, I'll just say sorry & ask him to forgive me for not being one of the Sheeple who got down on their bellies day in & day out worshiing him, instead of spending that time going out & doing things that actually count.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 09:46 AM
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If you watch your child doing something, and know full well that if they make a certain choice, they will create a mess, but you let them make that choice, have you interfered with there free will?

It works the same way with God. Just because he knows the outcome does NOT men that he does not let you have totally free rein to make your own decisions.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by fmcanarney
I went through alcoholism treatment thirty three years ago.
They had bibles in our rooms, as it was a Catholic Hospital.
I got angry and was throwing my things in my suitcase to leave.
Their bible fell upon the bed and was open at this passage:

"Who has woe? Who has Sorrow?, Who has Contentions? Who has babbling? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes?
They that tarry long at the wine; they that seek mixed drinks and strong wine.
Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it gives its colour in the cup, when it moves aright.
In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like a viper.
Thine eyes shall behold strange things, and thy heart shall utter perverse things.
Yes you will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth on the top of a mast.
They have beaten me, thou shall say, and i felt it not, they have stricken me and i was not sick.When shall I awake? I will seek yet another drink."

God has spoken to me.

Needless to say I stayed and completed treatment and have not touched a drink since then.


Messages can be found everywhere. That doesn't mean you rely solely on the one source that brought the message. That's "idolatry". There's reason the idolatry rule was added to the ten commandments and it's for our own good. There IS a "higher power" in control of giving "messages" to us and this power uses MANY resources. Relying on one resource opens the door to enslavement to ones who can manipulate your resource. Like the Bible.



posted on Sep, 18 2008 @ 06:42 PM
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For the love of God, it's "THEN"!!

THEN

Grow a brain!



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