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If God Is Omnipotent, Than There Is No Freewill

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posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 01:20 AM
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Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by NeverSurrender
 


I'd want my doctors and surgeons to use rational thought, something anyone who thinks the Bible is real isn't using.

You kind of shot yourself in the foot with that argument.


I'm just gonna say right now I'm done with this topic. Atheists cannot understand faith, and they never will because they don't allow themselves too.

You say science explains everything. Where did the first one celled organism come from? There is no way for "unliving matter" to just randomly mix itself up in itself and create a living cell. The Big Bang was so hot that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for anything to have survived (if a previous universe existed beforehand). If science was god, then we wouldn't be here. End of discussion.

You can keep lying to yourself, go ahead I encourage you to, because I just gave up on caring for your inability to understand common sense.

You can't mix up any of the elements in the periodic table and have a resulting one celled organism, just a bunch of stupid lifeless matter. That's why I have faith. I have faith in god because of science.

I've said this so many times, and I'll say it again. If science finds a way to take innadimate matter and create a cell from it I will renounce my faith. But it's not gonna happen, because it isn't POSSIBLE without a "third Party" involved.

Atheists hide behind the walls of science, which we still don't completely understand, yet you jump to conclusions without looking at the big picture.
You tell ME whose wrong here!!!

::yawn::

And let me just say this. I believe in a god, and Christianity makes a lot more sense that Buddhism, or any of the other religions. So many religions recognize Jesus as a Real person, so I figured if any religion on this planet is TRUE, then chances are it is Christianity. (Which is why I am a Christian it adds up more than the other religions do).

I rest my case and retire from this weak minded topic.

AMEN

[edit on 15-9-2008 by NeverSurrender]




posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by NeverSurrender
Yeah there are somethings about the bible that I don't completely agree with. Mainly the churches decision on which books to include in it and which ones not to include.

An example: The Apocalypse of Peter compared to the Apocalypse of John.

EDIT: The title thread says enough about your lack of understanding. If god is omnipotent he can do ANYTHING. That could be ummm hmmm lets see here.....

.....

giving people free will?

Of yeah that's right!

[edit on 15-9-2008 by NeverSurrender]


Good point here ... an Omnipotent God can do what ever it wants including giving humans free will, being omnipotent and wanting something and making itself forget who was going to heaven so that it could enjoy watching everyone trying to prove themself worthy.

It's a very hard to argue against.

What are the responses to this?

The OP's argument assumes the existence of a god, so arguments must be presented from that point of view.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 03:47 AM
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reply to post by Horza
 



So God makes himself forget who is going to heaven since he is omnipotent, memory erase is within his means? That is as good as the "can God make a rock to heavy for himself to lift" argument. These are minor details. What god are we assuming here? I take it the one from the bible. Apparently what we will do is all written in the book of life already anyway so making himself forget seems a little out of the question.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by NeverSurrender

::yawn::

And let me just say this. I believe in a god, and Christianity makes a lot more sense that Buddhism, or any of the other religions.
AMEN

[edit on 15-9-2008 by NeverSurrender]


From the Dhammapada, Buddha's observation:

"The faults of others are more easily seen than one's own, but seeing one's own failings is difficult."

Compare to Gospel of Thomas 26

"You see the mote which is in your brother's eye; but you do not see the beam which is in your own eye."

Jesus: "Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:31

Buddha: "Consider others as yourself." Dhammapada 10:1

Jesus said. “You have heard it said, love your neighbor. But I tell you, love your enemies, be good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who hurt you.” “Love one another as I have loved you.”

Buddha said, ”See yourself in others, who then can you hurt.” “Hate never overcomes hate. Only love overcomes hate. Cultivate boundless love toward all beings.”

well jesus thought buddism was pretty well put together he was teaching it after all

**********************

with the twin definitions of freewill earlier with the gun no gun staying home

that still doesnt help

you decide to stay home with no outside influences that your aware of, but 6000 years ago god KNEW you would stay home the choice wasnt yoursit never was

if god had wanted you to do anything other then stay at home he could have easily changed an aspect of the world slightly enough so that day you looked forward to going to work

the only differance between the man with the gun is god whispers in your ear while you sleep and uses a sniper rifle from a long way away


Good point here ... an Omnipotent God can do what ever it wants including giving humans free will, being omnipotent and wanting something and making itself forget who was going to heaven so that it could enjoy watching everyone trying to prove themself worthy.


if that were true then god wouldnt know the future so wouldnt think he was omnipotent and wouldnt have told us he was, unless he chose to lie and say he was

and yes it is a lie, it would be the truth if he hadnt made himself forget, but he did so to the best of his knowledge he was lying




[edit on 15/9/08 by noobfun]



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by JustAThought
There's no need to bring god into this. Free will is impossible. Period.

The thing in your head that creates the illusion of will is the product of a whole lot of causes, your choice is the reaction to these causes. There'll be no cheating.

You, everything you are and stand for, all your opinions are reactions to the world around you.

If you truly had free will you should be able to stop your thoughtflow and think about nothing, but that's impossible. You think, therefore you think you are. Even when you sleep it's very active although in a subconcious state.



You cant do that? because lots of people can. Just throwing that out there.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by jprophet420
You cant do that? because lots of people can. Just throwing that out there.


you can stop all thought for no matter what pourpose even on an unconcious level?

your heart beating
your lungs expanding and contracting
and a thousand other processes controlled by the brain you can stop all those on command for as long as you like?

and then start them back up



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 06:33 AM
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Alex

The Original Post reads:
If God is Omnipotent, "THAN" there is no freewill.
Omnipotent=All power

The correct OP should be:
If God is Omniscient, THEN there is no freewill.
Omniscient=All knowing

What do you blame for misspelling the word in the Original Post?
What force inside of yourself over which you have no control, or outside of yourself is responsible for the incorrect use of words in your original post?
Do not answer this question using the word "I" because that is self contradictory to your proposition and stance of no free will.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 07:02 AM
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a typo!!!! you made a typo deffinate proof of free will so deffinate proof of god!!!


you atheists are so gonna burn in hell!!!]


**please be aware this forum does not support the use of [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags so it may not mean what what it says dumbass**



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 07:04 AM
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reply to post by fmcanarney
 


It seems to me that if God is Omniscient, he was well aware of the mistake looming and allowed it to happen. Since he knew before the poster how the poster would mess up, the poster did not have free will to make that mistake, it was already written in the book of life that he had done that.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 07:36 AM
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The poster was daydreaming when he should have been paying attention in third grade english class. He was exercizing his free will to ignore the lessons and is acting on that earlier mistake today. He could exercize his free will today even yet, just like me or you and learn how to spell. It is of course his choice, just like it was and is your choice and my choice.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 07:45 AM
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God did know the mistake was going to happen as God in Omniscient.(ALL KNOWING)

God did not interfere just because he is Omnipotent (ALL POWERFUL)

Two completely different and separate things.
KNOWING AND ACTING are two separate things.

In fact God probably is telling the poster in his conscience and heart: "Should have payed attention in third grade english."

Maybe God is sad about it because the poster has intelligence capable of greater accuracy and is not reaching his full potential.

Or maybe God is angry with me because I pointed out an error of someone who HAS reached their full potential.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by fmcanarney
God did know the mistake was going to happen as God in Omniscient.(ALL KNOWING)

God did not interfere just because he is Omnipotent (ALL POWERFUL)

Two completely different and separate things.
KNOWING AND ACTING are two separate things.



but God cant act, he can not take any action to alter anything or he proves himself not omniscient somthing didnt go to his plan/liking so he has to change it meaning he doesnt know everything, but god already said he did

and god cant be wrong else he isnt god


god knows everything, he knew it before he started making stuff, knew exactly how it would turn it out

he knew exactly how each of our lives would turn out before he even started creation, so by creating the world as he did he chose how the world would influence us and lead us through our lives

it doesnt matter how many choices you could have, he knew back then which one would happen

you get no choice in it, if god had wanted you to turn left, then he built the world and all its parts combined at that very moment to get you to choose left

you choose left because he made everything lead you to turn left(as he always knew you would), so really there was no choice in it just the belief of choice

so if you believe in god there is no free will, just god letting you think there is while you follow what he has already dictated(by making the world the way it is) to be the path of your life


so any typo's i make are simply gods path for me along with every sin i commit god wanted me to be an evil unbeliever and by bieng one i do gods work - evil is good becasue god made me to do it ^_^



[edit on 15/9/08 by noobfun]



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by fmcanarney
 

If you ask me GOD is a gambler, anything else would be tedious and boring for an all powerful being, consequently it is up to us what me make of our life.
We are all creatures of GOD so we are also gamblers, I say go for it !!!



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 08:32 AM
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The American Psychological Association is considering deleting the diagnostic category of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I see and understand the dilema you are struggling with, though perhaps you are not struggling with it at all.
Hard determinism, which you are a proponent of, has been refuted several hundred years ago by minds sharper than yours.
Resign yourself then to a cruel, unjust God who does not take an interest in the intimate details and decisions that you are a victim of, have no control over, have no will to exercize in choosing actions and the attendant results. Commonly called "victimstance".
Remember, if your parents really did sit you on the potty crooked then it really is their fault.

Athiests have a tremendous amount of "Faith" in the reasoning power and conclusions of their own individual thought processes and their brain.

So much so that they fail to comprehend where that brain came from, and end up worshiping their brain, a creation, (self love and self admiration)(narcissism), and not the creator of the brain.



[edit on 15-9-2008 by fmcanarney]



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 10:32 AM
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I'm sure you are now aware that this question, and the topic title, are erroneous as you are not speaking of God's power but His knowledge, the omniscience of God rather than His omnipotence.


I'm still not too quite clear on why an omnipotent God wouldn't as well be omniscient. Omnipotent means he is all powerful, and can do anything, and everything he wants to. If he can't be omniscient than how is he omnipotent???


I would say, you believe that a man rose from the dead and acsended bodily into heaven, but speaking with those who have crossed over is pure fantasy?


Umm, I don't believe in Jesus or God... In fact, I'm more willing to believe in ghosts
I've seen my share of videos of stuff moving by itself, chairs bieng thrown while no one is in the room. I've seen more than enough of those freaky videos...


If the weatherman knows it's going to rain tomorrow, does that mean that he made it rain?

Simply knowing what will happen doesn't mean you make it occur.


Ok, but the weather man also gives us his knowledge, he tells us that it's going to rain. But, does the weatherman know that on a thursday, 6 months from now at approximately 6:00 it's going to rain??? No, because the weatherman isn't omniscient. God on the other hand knows everything, he knows when world war 3 will start, he knows when you, and I will die. He knows every little detail of everything in this universe throughout it's entire existence.


Simply because God knows what you all possible outcomes doesn't mean you didn't have the choice to do it. If you are hungry, you know you will eat, yet you still would consider it your choice to have done so, no? I just don't see how God's knowledge prevents choice. Wouldn't it still be considered free will as long as God didn't interfere? If he interfered, he would be causing you to have one possible direction to take. By knowing and not interfering, would he not be granting you free will?


"If he interfered he would be causing me to have one possible direction to take"??? I see what you're saying, but of the possible directions I can take, whichever I decide to take is the one I was destined to take. So in actuality there was only one possible direction I could've took.


We do good we go to heaven. If not we go to hell. If we didn't have free will than there would be no crime.


This whole topic obviously went way over your head...


Great literature, but not much else!


I can't speak for the koran or torah, but the bible is far from great literature. It is so badly written that I couldn't get passed the 7th page...


Because obviously, nothing I say is gonna make a difference for you. You've already made up your mind.

I haven't been on these forums for very long, but every topic this poster has written that I've seen is antireligious babble.


That's because I'm completely anti religious... I'm open to the idea of some sort of God actually existing, but I need proof. I am completely closed off to organized religion though. Religion ultimately will never do anything positive for mankind. In fact, religion has kept us from making scientific breakthroughs that could save thousands of lives, does stem cell research come to mind??? Religious freakjobs say they're pro-life on the issue of abortion, but at times murder abortion doctors, and take their lives. Some are pro-life.... BUT only while the baby is a lifeless fetus in the womb. When the baby is actually born to an abusive family, where are the pro-lifers??? Where are the pro-lifers when I'm done masturbating, and killed a couple million babies on my keyboard??? Religion says love thy neighbor, and love thy enemy, but stone homosexuals because homosexuality is an abomination. I can never, and I mean Never be a part of something so ridiculous.

I rest my case...


Atheists cannot understand faith, and they never will because they don't allow themselves too.


I had faith in God, and Jesus for 18 years, it never worked for me



You say science explains everything. Where did the first one celled organism come from? There is no way for "unliving matter" to just randomly mix itself up in itself and create a living cell. The Big Bang was so hot that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for anything to have survived (if a previous universe existed beforehand). If science was god, then we wouldn't be here. End of discussion.


Well since life had to have come from somewhere, where did God come from??? And word to the unwise, no serious person has ever said that science explains everything...


Omnipotent God can do what ever it wants including giving humans free will


It's not a lack of understanding on my part. It was a lack of logic when people decided to attribute, omnipotence, and omniscience to God. Because God supposedly used his omnipotence to give us freewill. The problem is God is also omniscient, omniscience and freewill do not go together. If God is omniscient then we don't have freewill.


f god had wanted you to do anything other then stay at home he could have easily changed an aspect of the world slightly enough so that day you looked forward to going to work


but 6000 years ago God knew that he would've changed that aspect of the world slightly... Did God have a choice in that???


What do you blame for misspelling the word in the Original Post?
What force inside of yourself over which you have no control, or outside of yourself is responsible for the incorrect use of words in your original post?
Do not answer this question using the word "I" because that is self contradictory to your proposition and stance of no free will.


It is not contradictory because I was speaking hypothetically. I don't believe in God, but if this God actually existed, and was truly omniscient than there is no freewill. What do I blame for the mispelling of the word??? I sometimes confuse then, with than, and in which ways to use them...



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by AlexG141989
 


I find it odd, that there are so many threads, and many discussions that either try to prove or disprove God. When the mere context of the word God is not fully understood by humans. As a word God has many contexts. Yet do we really fathom the base root meaning of "GOD"?
I always thought to discuss something one much fully understand the word, and the context used for the word. However humans on this earth dont know what or who God is. Do we say "a" God, or "the" God. The many God or God's. How do we discuss something that is an unknown unknown? How can any of us really and honestly prove God is this or that?
How can we claim to know anything? Other than freely throw a word around like an old rag doll, or like a rock beating it against another rock until it breaks open, and we find the contents that are with that rock? We pick up the smaller pieces and begin smashing those against other rocks until we get down to the micro level. Even still humans are trying to break apart atoms!
We must find a place where we can talk about the word used for this being. Or is it a being at all, or a thing? We really dont know, we only use the word itself, thinking that its a set standard. The word God is truely unknown so how can any of us say what God is or is not.
When we dont have the context, nor the base root of the word, "god" understood to where one person can put it next to another "god" to compare it. Or have (a)(the)'God at all to compare to anything we have understanding of..??
Preplexing yes it think so. And I dont have the answer you seek. Only more questions.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 10:58 AM
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"I had faith in God, and Jesus for 18 years, it never worked for me."

Your words Alex.

You now have no faith in God, and is this because he did not do what YOU wanted him to do? Because he failed you in some way. If God seems far away, look at who moved.

I have been angry with God at times in my past, though I did not doubt his existence because of that anger.

Under my anger was an even greater amount of pain and hurt.

My pain and hurt was because things happened that did not meet my expectations. Not happening the way I imagined or wanted it to happen.

The shortest verse in the bible is: "Jesus wept." Because that is the evolved and natural way to express pain and hurt, and not bottle it up inside till it becomes anger, then gets distorted into rage and hate.

However it is a function of free will to stop the natural expression of hurt and pain. This goes against natural law.

A child is more natural and truthful in the expression of feelings and emotions than adults are.
I have heard from an adult a lot of times when I was a child: "You better stop crying, (truthfully expressing hurt and pain) or I will give you (some more hurt and pain) something to cry about.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 11:06 AM
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There have been some interesting replies in this thread. Try this on for size:

God is omnipotent.
God is omniscient.

So

God knows all things past, present, and future.
God has the power in his omnipotence to know all things past, present, and future, while still allowing free will.

The nature of God does not allow for man to comprehend much of his doings. Man can not comprehend a spherical cube, absolute nothingness, boiling hot ice, etc. God, however, has the power to make all these things so.

I don't believe in a deity, but as you all should see, God and all his concepts and designs and abilities are infinitely safeguarded. It is impossible for man to denounce God.

An example of this in action:

Our universe has evils in it. God allows these evils to exist. If God were truly benevolent, there would be no evil.

But one can agree that the universe with the most good may, in fact, have some evil. If universe A has X good and Y evil, and universe B has X^2 good and Y evil.... even though they both have evil, universe B has the most good. So it is possible for the best possible universe to be one with evil, because it has the most good.

Well, guess what... God is omnipotent. He has the power to create a universe with no evil. So the best possible universe has no evil.

Maybe God doesn't give a damn about you. Maybe God wants you to experience evil.

The point is that you can never win any argument that is to do with God. So stop telling each other that you are wrong.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by fmcanarney
"I had faith in God, and Jesus for 18 years, it never worked for me."

Your words Alex.

You now have no faith in God, and is this because he did not do what YOU wanted him to do? Because he failed you in some way. If God seems far away, look at who moved.

I have been angry with God at times in my past, though I did not doubt his existence because of that anger.

Under my anger was an even greater amount of pain and hurt.

My pain and hurt was because things happened that did not meet my expectations. Not happening the way I imagined or wanted it to happen.

The shortest verse in the bible is: "Jesus wept." Because that is the evolved and natural way to express pain and hurt, and not bottle it up inside till it becomes anger, then gets distorted into rage and hate.

However it is a function of free will to stop the natural expression of hurt and pain. This goes against natural law.

A child is more natural and truthful in the expression of feelings and emotions than adults are.
I have heard from an adult a lot of times when I was a child: "You better stop crying, (truthfully expressing hurt and pain) or I will give you (some more hurt and pain) something to cry about.



Well, unlike you, I was never ever mad at God. God never failed me. It was not because he didn't do something I wanted him to do. It's just that IMO he doesn't exist. For me to be mad at God would imply that I believe he is real.



posted on Sep, 15 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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Well now that I've taken the time to read a lot of these topics, I'm all kinds of pissed off.
First and foremost, I want to deal with this garbage:


Atheists cannot understand faith, and they never will because they don't allow themselves too.

I don't know about anybody other than myself, but I must say that I cannot understand faith because I have a different train of thought than you. Your statement, along with many others that I'm going to quote and reply to, are incredibly ignorant. I have tried subjecting myself to faith, and remain open to the belief in a higher being, always. I simply do not agree with many of the aspects regarding religion or faith
Secondly, this garbage:


You say science explains everything. Where did the first one celled organism come from? There is no way for "unliving matter" to just randomly mix itself up in itself and create a living cell. The Big Bang was so hot that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for anything to have survived (if a previous universe existed beforehand). If science was god, then we wouldn't be here. End of discussion.

How do you know that there is no way for unliving matter to randomly create a living cell? Isn't it possible that science isn't that far along yet? That we don't have the technology available to test this yet? The fact of the matter is that you don't know whether it is possible or impossible because you haven't observed either case. Just because physicists could not see smaller than an atom did not mean there was no particle smaller. In fact, upon further testing and observation, physicists eventually discovered smaller and smaller particles. And, I'd like to further point out, that the above quoted text from your post, along with the next quoted selection, are what really pissed me off.


You can keep lying to yourself, go ahead I encourage you to, because I just gave up on caring for your inability to understand common sense.

You can't mix up any of the elements in the periodic table and have a resulting one celled organism, just a bunch of stupid lifeless matter. That's why I have faith. I have faith in god because of science.

I've said this so many times, and I'll say it again. If science finds a way to take innadimate matter and create a cell from it I will renounce my faith. But it's not gonna happen, because it isn't POSSIBLE without a "third Party" involved.

Atheists hide behind the walls of science, which we still don't completely understand, yet you jump to conclusions without looking at the big picture.
You tell ME whose wrong here!!!

::yawn::

And let me just say this. I believe in a god, and Christianity makes a lot more sense that Buddhism, or any of the other religions. So many religions recognize Jesus as a Real person, so I figured if any religion on this planet is TRUE, then chances are it is Christianity. (Which is why I am a Christian it adds up more than the other religions do).

I rest my case and retire from this weak minded topic.

Well, I guess it turns out your entire post pissed me off. Common sense is logical and lacks the sheer ignorance you have displayed. Common sense says that one should leave these topics open to revision and experimentation where possible. You don't know, as a matter of fact, that there isn't a combination of the elements that produces life. You can't factually make this statement. You don't know, as a matter of fact, that it isn't possible for life to exist without a third party. You can't factually make this statement either. I do not hide behind any wall of science. I am constantly looking to explore and understand the universe and everything in it. It is the theist that jumps to conclusions, using God as the end all explanation of everything. You can't prove anything to do with God, but I can repeatedly show you scientific fact. That's the point of science. Christianity steals almost every concept or belief it teaches.







 
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