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If God Is Omnipotent, Than There Is No Freewill

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posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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i like to think of it as a sort of tree..in every situation we have choices and based on the choice we make we head down a different path..every path branches out into other paths based on our choices and so on and so forth..god doesnt know which one we will choose and leaves that up to us..he knows the possibilities but not the exact path we choose to take




posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
If this God truly was omnipotent in the sense that he knows all, past, present, and, future, then humans do not have free will.


I'm sure you are now aware that this question, and the topic title, are erroneous as you are not speaking of God's power but His knowledge, the omniscience of God rather than His omnipotence.

That God is omniscient does not mean we His creation are, in other words, while He may know everything we clearly have the experience of knowing very little and certainly not knowing everything. Therefore our appreciation of the nature of God's omniscience will always be lacking. In the history of theology there have been two camps the apophatic and the cataphatic. The latter attempts to describe positively who God is, the former speak of what God is not. An Irish philosopher Eriugena, 9th Century, combined both these in his philosophy with the formula "God is X. God is not X. God is "huper" (super) X. So where God's omniscience is concerned we can say "God is omniscient. God is not omniscient (as we understand the term). God is huperomniscient"

The positive statement "God is omniscient" is true only in so far as our human word "omniscient" points towards that phenomenon as part of the divine without fully defining it. The very statement "God is omniscient" is fascinating because none of those three words can be fully defined by any of us: God, being, omniscience.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:05 PM
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Thomas Aquinas acknowledged difficulty in comprehending God's power. Aquinas wrote that while "all confess that God is omnipotent...it seems difficult to explain in what God's omnipotence precisely consists." In the scholastic understanding, omnipotence is generally understood to be compatible with certain limitations upon God's power, as opposed to implying infinite abilities. There are certain things that even an omnipotent God cannot do. Medieval theologians drew attention to some fairly trivial examples of restrictions upon the power of God. The statement "God can do anything" is only sensible with an assumed suppressed clause, "that implies the perfection of true power." This standard scholastic answer allows that creaturely acts such as walking can be performed by humans but not by God. Rather than an advantage in power, human acts such as walking, sitting or giving birth were possible only because of a defect in human power. The ability to sin, for example, is not a power but a defect or an infirmity. In response to questions of God performing impossibilities (such as making square circles) Aquinas says that "Nothing which implies contradiction falls under the omnipotence of God."

Since it seems this has become a theology discussion heres a link for you, Of god and his creatures
. Since being truly omnipotent doesnt mean you can do any thing never has. I assure you the future is unset all god can try to do is guide you ultimately the decision is still yours.

If this is truly a discussion of god and not just prove he doesn't exist you can do research if the purpose of this thread is to just prove what you believe then your not trying to be open minded. I am not a religious person i don't attend church but i do find exploration of religions fascinating. Also willing to discuss other religions as well The closest to your difinition of omnipotent is probably budists they believe everything is pre ordained And were here to learn lessons.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Believe it or not Jesus does not know everything, the father knows all. So what that means is that with Jesus you are able to bend the rules of your fate and the end scenrio is not always black and white. This means your own chosen path and redemption will take many turns but you will have choices along the way, even if the Father knows your fate if the serious matter needs bringing up to say it is or is not.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by The time lord]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989

and who is to say that my interpretation is wrong?


Who's to say your interpretation is right??? I'm going for the christian God mainly because he' the one that half the world believes in... But this thread is intended for any religion that thinks their God is omnipotent, which is pretty much every religion on the planet.




This thread is to ponder the question of God's omnipotence. Half the world is NOT christian, by the way, the actual percentage is 33%, and many spiritual beliefs do not believe that God is omnipotent. We will only absolutely know what is true once we leave this vibration level and cross to a higher plane of existance. Clinging to the Bible, Koran, or the Torah for absolute truth is quite frankly, ignorant. I once heard a EVP (electronic voice phenomena, or message from the dead) that said it best. The question put out was why the afterlife described by those who have already crossed over did not match what the major religions preached to thier followers. The reply was "Unaware they spread lies... they follow old words... they are not here... question all... question everything." Speak with the Dead by Konstantinos I can already see the response of disbelief in this type of communication, but in response I would say, you believe that a man rose from the dead and acsended bodily into heaven, but speaking with those who have crossed over is pure fantasy? Take a logical look at that, and you tell me what's more likely!



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 02:50 PM
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Omnipotence
(Latin omnipotentia, from omnia and potens, able to do all things).
Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible.
As intrinsically impossible must be classed:
Any action on the part of God which would be out of harmony with His nature and attributes;
Any action that would simultaneously connote mutually repellent elements, e.g. a square circle, an infinite creature, etc.
Actions out of harmony with God's nature and attributes
(a) It is impossible for God to sin
Man's power of preferring evil to good is a sign not of strength, but of infirmity, since it involves the liability to be overcome by unworthy motives; not the exercise but the restraint of that power adds to the freedom and vigour of the will. "To sin," says St. Thomas, "is to be capable of failure in one's actions, which is incompatible with omnipotence" (Summa, I, Q, xxv, a. 3).
(b) The decrees of God cannot be reversed
From eternity the production of creatures, their successive changes, and the manner in which these would occur were determined by God's free will. If these decrees were not irrevocable, it would follow either that God's wisdom was variable or that His decisions sprang from caprice. Hence theologians distinguish between the absolute and the ordinary, or regulated, power of God (potentia absoluta; potentia ordinaria). The absolute power of God extends to all that is not intrinsically impossible, while the ordinary power is regulated by the Divine decrees. Thus by His absolute power God could preserve man from death; but in the present order this is impossible, since He has decreed otherwise.
(c) The creation of an absolutely best creature or of an absolutely greatest number if creatures is impossible, because the Divine power is inexhaustible
Mutually exclusive elements
Omnipotence is perfect power, free from all mere potentiality. Hence, although God does not bring into external being all that He is able to accomplish, His power must not be understood as passing through successive stages before its effect is accomplished. The activity of God is simple and eternal, without evolution or change. The transition from possibility to actuality or from act to potentiality, occurs only in creatures. When it is said that God can or could do a thing, the terms are not to be understood in the sense in which they are applied to created causes, but as conveying the idea of a Being possessed of infinite unchangeable power, the range of Whose activity is limited only by His sovereign Will. "Power," says St. Thomas, "is not attributed to God as a thing really different from His Knowledge and Will, but as something expressed by a different concept, since power means that which executes the command of the will and the advice of the intellect. These three (viz., intellect, will, power), coincide with one another in God" (Summa, I, Q. xxv, a. 1, ad 4). Omnipotence is all-sufficient power. The adaptation of means to ends in the universe does not argue, as J.S. Mill would have it, that the power of the designer is limited, but only that God has willed to manifest His glory by a world so constituted rather than by another. Indeed the production of secondary causes, capable of accomplishing certain effects, requires greater power than the direct accomplishment of these same effects. On the other hand even though no creature existed, God's power not be barren, for creatures are not an end to God.

www.newadvent.org...



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by The time lord
Believe it or not Jesus does not know everything, the father knows all. So what that means is that with Jesus you are able to bend the rules of your fate and the end scenrio is not always black and white. This means your own chosen path and redemption will take many turns but you will have choices along the way, even if the Father knows your fate if the serious matter needs bringing up to say it is or is not.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by The time lord]


Didn't Jesus say, "The Father and I are one"?

I would say freewill doesn't exist except from the ability that people have to put themselves in a group that will influence them. People are controlled by nature and other natural forces until they get to a point where they seek something else out. You could explain it that there is a world of causes and world of effects. We see and experience the effect, but the cause comes from somewhere else. Things are controlled by the highest but there is a lack of perception that allows us to develop.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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It is argued that necessarianism or determinism in any form is in conflict with the chief moral notions and convictions of mankind at large. The actual universality of such moral ideas is indisputable. Duty, moral obligation, responsibility, merit, justice signify notions universally present in the consciousness of normally developed men. Further, these notions, as universally understood, imply that man is really master of some of his acts, that he is, at least at times, capable of self-determination, that all his volitions are not the inevitable outcome of his circumstances. When I say that I ought not to have performed some forbidden act, that it was my duty to obey the law, I imply that I could have done so. The judgment of all men is the same on this point. When we say that a person is justly held responsible for a crime, or that he deserves praise or reward for an heroic act of self-sacrifice, we mean that he was author and cause of that act in such fashion that he had it in his power not to perform the act. We exempt the insane or the child, because we believe them devoid of moral freedom and determined inevitably by the motives which happened to act on them. So true is this, that determinists have had to admit that the meaning of these terms will, according to their view, have to be changed. But this is to admit that their theory is in direct conflict with universal psychological facts. It thereby stands disproved. Again, it may be urged that, if logically followed out, the determinist doctrine would annihilate human morality, consequently that such a theory cannot be true. (See FATALISM.)


To not have achieved this developement of moral and ethical free will by the time you are 18 evidences an abnormally developed human, insanity or cecessation of development at a childlike state of mind.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by ghaleon12


Didn't Jesus say, "The Father and I are one"?



only when it suited him (and by him i mean the ones who editted the bible to mean what they wanted at the time)


it gets better then just no free will

god knows all and god can never be wrong and god has a plan

so in his 'i know all' he made satan and the tree of knowledge knowing we would sin and be evicted from eden

we also knows satan wil turn us away from him

but satan is doing exactly what god wants becasue its part of his plan, so by bieng turned by the devil and commiting sin weather it be lying staeling murder rape coveting neighbours donkeys what ever we are also doing gods work

sin is good because its gods work ...

hang on wait .....

3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

he doesnt know where they are and has to play hide and seek to find them ......... he doesnt know how they know they are naked .......... or that they ate the magic fruit of evilness

3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

wouldnt he already know this without asking?

4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

so cain can hide from god too ........ are you sure he is omnipotent

maybe he is just a little short sighted or he forgets where he left people





[edit on 14/9/08 by noobfun]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:24 PM
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Lucifer was previously an angel in heaven. He refused to obey God so God initiated the first war and had some of the other angels throw lucifer and his followers out of heaven.
Lucifer was first seen in tempting Eve in the Garden.
Eve and then Adam choose, after being told to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, to disobey God.
So Eve and Adam felt ashamed, like present day humans do when they go against what is moral. That is why they hid, they were hiding their "sin", their disobedience to God.
Did God know they sinned, of course.
He wanted them to "come clean", so to say.
"Some people never come clean, I think you know what I mean.
They're walking the wire between pain and desire, looking for love in between." Don Henley
So they came clean and blamed the serpent.
This is the story of the falling away from obedience to God.
Eve and Adam exercized their free will, consciously choosing to disobey God's rule.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989

God cannot want something, and be omnipotent.


Good point Alex. God has been given human traits so humans can try and understand the concept.
People are so insecure and afraid that they must have that security blanket called god.
Is there an afterlife? .....are you positive.......No, you can't be.

god is there because your afraid of DEATH.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by RobertRogers
Can god create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

Man made god in his own image, and uses god to explain things mankind does not understand.

What is God? Ask her, maybe she will speak to you!



Yes, he can create a rock that is so heavy even he cannot lift it. Because it is merely a choice. If god choose for it to be too heavy, then he will not be able to lift it. When he chooses for it to no longer be heavy, then it will no longer be too heavy.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:47 PM
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Omnipotence deals with POWER.
(Latin omnipotentia, from omnia and potens, able to do all things).
Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible.
Omniscience deals with KNOWLEDGE.
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:51 PM
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God cannot create a rock that is too heavy for him to lift.
However there is a rock that he cannot move.
That is a heart of stone.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by fmcanarney]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by fmcanarney
This is the story of the falling away from obedience to God.
Eve and Adam exercized their free will, consciously choosing to disobey God's rule.



but didnt god say he knew all that was is and will be? im pretty sure he did

dont remeber off the top of my head where

so then he is both omnipotent and Omniscience

which means they didnt choose, god already made them knowing they would do this



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 05:03 PM
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Here's how free will exists.

From gods perspective, all knowing and omnipresent, the entire universe is static. While you are watching the movies on the screen, god is looking at the film all rolled out.

But that is a linear way of looking at it with the movie film, because it means there is only 1 possible direction. And of course, free will could not exist.

So, rather than the linear way, I see everything possible as being the universe. Multiple dimensions that are exactly like what we have, with small changes here and there. When every possibility is played out, you roll out all the film. Instead of the 1/linear film script, you have a big huge amount of film.

While we see time as linear, and it feels like we are on a linear timeline, it's really just our path across this. Every time "time" moves forward, you are simply changing dimensions. It is the changing of dimensions that create "time".

Free will is only possible when you have every outcome/choice available.

But. Whats to say you freely didn't put yourself into a situation that was limited for the experience? Everytime you play a game you agree to a set of rules for playing that game. Part of having free will is the ability to give it away.

In order to get how we move across the universe I think is where Jesus comes in. He showed the path. But that is not to say he is the only one, or that you need to worship his image etc.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 05:13 PM
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Maybe there is no god and we're all energy beings that reincarnate and form a symbiotic relationship with the biological human, or even animal. Crazier things have happened. To debate god's omnipotence is pointless. Nobody can answer the question, and it will never be answered. We can't even prove he exists. Erroneous, immaterial, irrelevant. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 05:17 PM
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I find it funny when people refer to bible scriptures to help "answer" pending questions on doubt with religion.
You have to find something bigger than that. The bible is nothing more than a story book for the children of it's time.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by el justeen o
I find it funny when people refer to bible scriptures to help "answer" pending questions on doubt with religion.
You have to find something bigger than that. The bible is nothing more than a story book for the children of it's time.


I can see how someone who merely looks at the images and doesn't understand the philosophy it's based on might think that.

Have you ever heard "and the morale of the story is"?



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 06:08 PM
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I am constantly pondering free will and posted a thread here once awhile back on it.

I just have to say that the OP brings up a great point but I see it as how am I responsible for all my decisions and possible outcomes etc etc if I am the byproduct of two other peoples decision (ie parents had relations) I did not even make the first decision so how could I be responsible for the rest?

for some reason arguing about free will makes me think of all those old college classes spent arguing a possible infinity.



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