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If God Is Omnipotent, Than There Is No Freewill

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posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by Alexander_Supertramp
The first thing I'd like to know is exactly what your definition of free will is. That is a huge thing to look over and the entire argument cannot start until you give a valid starting point, if that makes sense?


do I really have to give you a definition???

when you choose to do something, that is freewill, you used your freewill to do something that you wanted to do... BUT, how can you "choose" to do something, if all along you were destined to make that choice???




posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 11:50 PM
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First of all, know that I understand all too well that most of you don’t actually give a damn about God or the truth. You really don’t want your questions answered and you’re only posting questions like this because, like a spoiled, rebellious child, you want attention and will use negative means to get it.

However, for the slight possibility that one of you actually does give a damn about God and the truth I will make an effort to explain some simple logic that if you really wanted to know you would have worked out for yourselves.



If God knows everything then your life is predestined, and if it is already preordained then there is no free will.

So if God is Omnipotent then when he created my spirit he knew whether or not I would repent or be saved. So If he knew that I would not be saved then why did he allow me to be born and grow knowing full well I would spend eternity in Hell. If that is exactly what has happens that makes God a bit of a Sadist doesn't it?


God is all knowing. He knows exactly what you’re going to do and what you’re not going to do. However, as modern psychology has proven that no theories about human motivation hold true in all cases. Niether can it be predicted what anyone will do before they do it. Basically, no matter what your diagnosed psychological condition, no human can predict with absolute certainty what any other human will do at any given moment in time.

I, because I am not God, “think” that you are going to go to work tomorrow. I, because I am not God, have no idea whether you actually will go to work or not. However, despite what I “think” or if I was God “know” your choice is still yours to make.

Do you walk around like a robot, never making any decisions whatsoever? Of course not! I guess you have no choice whatsoever what you’re going to eat or say or do, all day long huh? Yes, the point of your post is foolish like a child, but for the sake that someone might possibly have actually expected a real answer to this absurd question I have provided one.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by Hot_Wings]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 12:05 AM
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Maybe our definition of "God" is all wrong. I believe that "God", in the begining was a being of pure thought and pure energy. Imagine if you were born with none of your five senses. Just your mind. Then imagine you had the power to create those senses (the big bang). I believe "God" IS the universe itself, and we are merely extentions of this divine being trying to understand itself. We are merely one of those senses, and yes, we have free will so that all things can be experienced. "God" doesn't live outside of science. Quantum String theory actually explains this existance and the higher dimensions where energy vibrates at a higher level. The universe is comprised of energy, it's all connected, including us mere mortal humans!



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
reply to post by Jazzyguy
 


and if he can't give us freewill then he is not omnipotent, therefore he is no God


BINGO! and since now it has been established according to the previous statements that it is impossible to be "omnipotent", and since only God is omnipotent, therefore THERE IS NO GOD.

Now, we're back to the classic atheist vs theist debate, which is the fundamental of this thread, am I right?

Or at least something along that line, such as believers that don't require proof, vs yeah I want to believe but I need proof, I need convincing, you know the drill.

Theists will still believe there is God, and atheists won't. Yawn.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 12:38 AM
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Do you walk around like a robot, never making any decisions whatsoever? Of course not! I guess you have no choice whatsoever what you’re going to eat or say or do, all day long huh. Yes, the point of your post is foolish like a child, but for the sake that someone might possibly have actually expected a real answer to this absurd question I have provided one.


You have provided no answer, you obviously don't understand the point of the thread...


Maybe our definition of "God" is all wrong. I believe that "God", in the begining was a being of pure thought and pure energy. Imagine if you were born with none of your five senses. Just your mind. Then imagine you had the power to create those senses (the big bang). I believe "God" IS the universe itself, and we are merely extentions of this divine being trying to understand itself. We are merely one of those senses, and yes, we have free will so that all things can be experienced. "God" doesn't live outside of science. Quantum String theory actually explains this existance and the higher dimensions where energy vibrates at a higher level. The universe is comprised of energy, it's all connected, including us mere mortal humans!


we're talking about the christian god here, not just your interpretation.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 12:42 AM
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Can I ask how both of you wrote exactly the same thing without either one of you showing content from an external source or quoting the source???


Originally posted by jwstarry
So if God is Omnipotent then when he created my spirit he knew whether or not I would repent or be saved. So If he knew that I would not be saved then why did he allow me to be born and grow knowing full well I would spend eternity in Hell. If that is exactly what has happens that makes God a bit of a Sadist doesn't it?

[edit on 13-9-2008 by jwstarry]



Originally posted by Hot_Wings
So if God is Omnipotent then when he created my spirit he knew whether or not I would repent or be saved. So If he knew that I would not be saved then why did he allow me to be born and grow knowing full well I would spend eternity in Hell. If that is exactly what has happens that makes God a bit of a Sadist doesn't it?


Is there an external source to this quote? If there is, can it please be posted.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
If this God truly was omnipotent in the sense that he knows all, past, present, and, future, then humans do not have free will. In another debate I was involved in, a theist told me that God already knows whether I am going to heaven, or hell... If God already knows then how do I have freewill??? Every choice that I make, God knew that I was going to make that choice, so all along I was destined to make that "choice".

if God truly knew “all”, then there is nothing God should have to “do” because it is all written. God is in a sense, watching a movie. He knows all the scenes, and what will happen, how it began and how it will end. In the process of watching a movie that you already know all the scenes, and lines to. If you had to wonder, or hope a scene would turn out the way you like. If you got mad that the movie wasn’t good. Any of those emotions would clearly indicate that you haven’t watched the movie before, and therefore didn’t know what would happen… God clearly exhibits childish humans emotions such as those, which indicates he doesn’t know. If he truly knew all, past, present, and future, there would be nothing that he should have to be jealous of, or angry of, or want… You stating that God wants his children to go to heaven tells me he doesn’t know who really is going to heaven. God shouldn’t want anything like that if he was truly omnipotent, because he would already know who was going to heaven, and who wasn’t. God cannot want something, and be omnipotent.


Try thinking of it like this;

God exists outside of spacetime. He looks at our lives and sees us as as a whole, at conception, at birth, as an infant, a child, an adult, elderly, and he sees the end. This does not mean that we didn't choose the way we would go, only that we experience it differently. We experience it in a linear fashion, and God sees it as a whole. We still chose our actions, but God just sees it from a different perspective.


So, therefore, he could see us and know what we would do in any given situation and know what will take place before we do, but that does not mean he made us do it or that we don't have free will.

That being said, I don't believe the bible. It's too cut and pasted to suit the PTB. I do not think God would be that childish.

If I were all powerful, I wouldn't care what anybody did.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989

Do you walk around like a robot, never making any decisions whatsoever? Of course not! I guess you have no choice whatsoever what you’re going to eat or say or do, all day long huh. Yes, the point of your post is foolish like a child, but for the sake that someone might possibly have actually expected a real answer to this absurd question I have provided one.


You have provided no answer, you obviously don't understand the point of the thread...


Maybe our definition of "God" is all wrong. I believe that "God", in the begining was a being of pure thought and pure energy. Imagine if you were born with none of your five senses. Just your mind. Then imagine you had the power to create those senses (the big bang). I believe "God" IS the universe itself, and we are merely extentions of this divine being trying to understand itself. We are merely one of those senses, and yes, we have free will so that all things can be experienced. "God" doesn't live outside of science. Quantum String theory actually explains this existance and the higher dimensions where energy vibrates at a higher level. The universe is comprised of energy, it's all connected, including us mere mortal humans!


we're talking about the christian god here, not just your interpretation.


No, you're talking about the Christian God, that's not what the original question was, and who is to say that my interpretation is wrong? I also don't believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus anymore either! I think Jesse Ventura said it best when he said "Organized religion is for the weak minded!" What an ego you have to have to think that "God" is all wrapped up in human affairs in a universe that is so vast. Open your mind! It's worth the trip!



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:08 AM
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Originally posted by JustAThought
There's no need to bring god into this. Free will is impossible. Period.

The thing in your head that creates the illusion of will is the product of a whole lot of causes, your choice is the reaction to these causes. There'll be no cheating.


This is a highly interesting topic, but I stopped reading when I came to this. JustA gives the the perfect answer above. I don't think I can contribute any more that that.

Read the above quote twice. It is 100% obviously true.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:23 AM
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I have to assume that by omnipotnce the OP means omniscience as well

There is an argument that can be used to says that Gd is omnipotent/omniscience but there is still free will.

God knows all outcomes that can possible happen and all consequences of those outcomes that can possibly happen.

But ... and here is the clincher ... God chooses to have no influence over the decisions made to to reach those outcomes.

The decisions are left up to us.

The actual outcomes are not defined, God just knows what all the outcomes COULD be. Not what they will be.

Therefore there are know pedetermined outcomes and therefore there is free will.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by Buck Division

Originally posted by JustAThought
There's no need to bring god into this. Free will is impossible. Period.

The thing in your head that creates the illusion of will is the product of a whole lot of causes, your choice is the reaction to these causes. There'll be no cheating.


This is a highly interesting topic, but I stopped reading when I came to this. JustA gives the the perfect answer above. I don't think I can contribute any more that that.

Read the above quote twice. It is 100% obviously true.



I disagree with this.

How can a choice be predetermined by a cause if there is more than one way of reacting to that cause?

And, as the OP is about God, we do need to bring God into this.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by Horza


How can a choice be predetermined by a cause if there is more than one way of reacting to that cause?



Thank you Horza, I agree


We have so many choices to make regarding any one event, how can anyone say we were predestined?

This is exactly what I was thinking with my last post, just said it differently.

I do think we choose, but in a different way than we think we do.

I think we are linear in the way we experience our lives, but the way it is seen outside this dimension is as a whole. This does not preclude freewill, however, I can see how this could make it seem that way.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 03:03 AM
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God is merely an observer whom created the universe with nothing but a point of intention. Each of us will become Gods of our own. At that juncture, ponders the question; are you going to start it all over again?

"...these are the things that hydrogen atoms can do when given 13.7 billion years" - Carl Sagan



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 09:52 AM
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I'm going to put my 2 cents in, the best that I can.

There are two trains of thought, philosophically speaking. This is known as the issue of:

Free Will vs. Determinism

Which gives us, if we look one step further:

Compatibilism vs. Incompatibilism

The concept of free will says that people are free to do or not do as they wish. They have a choice. The argument against this arises when one points out that the Judeo-Christian God is omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, etc.

The concept of determinism says that people do not have free will, as everything is infinitely determined by the past. For an example, think of the following: everything that you are, that you have done, is entirely out of your control because it all happened due to the precise events and happenings that preceded you. I remember hearing about a court case in which this concept was argued in order to prove a man's innocence. Search the web for a man named Clarence Darrow for some evidence.

So, what problems arise in all this?

Well, one argument is that it is impossible to have free will if there is an omniscient God. If God knows everything past, present, and future, how can one possibly have a choice? This is a determinist stance. A hard determinist will further state that if there is free will, there must be no God, or God must not be omniscient. This is incompatibilism.

An argument against the hard determinist states that it is, in fact, possible for God to exist (while still being omniscient) because, while God knows all things past, present, and future, he can choose not to exert his omnipotence. This means that he can ALLOW for us to make a choice. This is compatibilism.


Without getting much more in depth, there are even further arguments within compatibilism and incompatibilism. The point that I am making is:

You can debate your stance all you want, but because you cannot DISPROVE God (however convenient that may be for the theist) you cannot DISPROVE free will, nor determinism.

This is a cyclical argument, and as I learned in my philosophy class (which covered whether or not it was rational to believe in God) after all the arguments of the great philosophers of the past, it is just as rational as it is irrational. There is no definite answer. It is only a stance that you take for yourself. Personally, I do not believe in God, and I take the stance of determinism. Even this can be broken down in such a way that one could argue that foreknowledge of events can provide a person with choice, etc. etc.

None of us is more wrong than the other. None of us is more right. These are concepts, not experimental hypotheses.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:17 AM
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Here's a short video from a different perspective on free will.

www.kabbalah.info...

Perhaps we're there with God watching our own movie. He creates the movie with the hope of developing the person. A person makes all decisions based on how it will feel towards themselves, positive or negative, this alone shows free will to be not exactly possible because nothing can contradict the ego. The video might provide some interest though.


[edit on 14-9-2008 by ghaleon12]

[edit on 14-9-2008 by ghaleon12]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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So, therefore, he could see us and know what we would do in any given situation and know what will take place before we do, but that does not mean he made us do it or that we don't have free will.


Here is a quote from a bible website www.biblebell.org...


Since God is all-knowing, He knew everything about the universe and its creatures BEFORE He even created them.
Ergo, God has always known everything you will say or do throughout your entire existence.


Now that we have established that God has known everything about everything he created, he's known everything we will say or do throughout our entire existence. How does that leave freewill for us to make our choices??? No matter which way a theist tries to explain it, it always ends up with humans having no freewill, and they don't understand that. If our future is known, than it is pre-written. If our lives are pre-written than every choice we make was pre-written, and if that is the case than there is no freewill.


and who is to say that my interpretation is wrong?


Who's to say your interpretation is right??? I'm going for the christian God mainly because he' the one that half the world believes in... But this thread is intended for any religion that thinks their God is omnipotent, which is pretty much every religion on the planet.


God knows all outcomes that can possible happen and all consequences of those outcomes that can possibly happen.

But ... and here is the clincher ... God chooses to have no influence over the decisions made to to reach those outcomes.


You just told me that whatever I decide to use my freewill in life, has absolutely no bearing on where I will ultimately end up. How is that freewill??? Your interpretation, or argument was wrong from the get-go however, because in God's all mighty power of omnipotence, he just so happens to have the ability to foresee each, and every little decision we will ever make in our small, meaningless lives. Each, and every decision we will ever make is already known, therefore how are we really making our choices???



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
If this God truly was omnipotent in the sense that he knows all, past, present, and, future, then humans do not have free will.


I agree completely. Being very meta I do believe every thought and action comes from one source. Plus it is a good excuse, as in "that is my story and I am sticking to it!" : )

Belief or knowledge that the creator exists can be very liberating.


[edit on 14-9-2008 by Sonya610]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 11:06 AM
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Well, I guess since my posting as an anonymous source from my other pc hasn't posted...

Here is my two cents on the matter:

What you are all talking about, as you all know, is a conceptual, philosophical dilemma. This dilemma is known as Free Will vs. Determinism. Let me break this down the best that I can...

Free Will states that we have the ability to make choices regarding our actions. It says that we can choose to do, not to do, or choose an alternative. But a problem arises... How can we have Free Will if there is a Judeo-Christian God? (I use Judeo-Christian God because it is generally agreed that this deity is omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, etc.) If God is omniscient, then he knows all things past, present, and future. Therefore, he already knows everything that you are going to do, which means we have no Free Will.

The Determinist will argue as above. He will further state that we have no free will because everything we do is predetermined by previous events or actions. Looking at this further, the Determinist will also say that he cannot be responsible for any of his actions because they are clearly out of his control since he cannot control the past.

Clarence Darrow argues criminal cases with the use of determinism, and actually proves their "innocence" with determinism.

So what about further implications of Free Will vs. Determinism?

Another debate can immediately arise. That debate is:

Compatibilism vs. Incompatibilism.

Compatibilism states that it is possible for there to be an omniscient God and Free Will because God can permit choices, as he is omnipotent.

Incompatibilism states that Determinism and Free Will cannot possibly go hand in hand, which means that either there is no God, God is not omniscient, or we have no free will.

My point is that it is impossible to prove any stance regarding the matter to be absolutely true because it is impossible to DISPROVE the existence of God (however convenient this may be for the theist). It is a cyclical argument, which can be broken down even further (such as the use of human foreknowledge). It is pointless to try to prove or disprove any of these stances, but it is meaningful to express your belief and why you have that belief. Personally, I do not believe in God, and I am a determinist. But my determinist beliefs are those of compatibilism. I studied this subject quite a bit in a philosophy class that's goal was to determine if it is rational or irrational to believe in God. The end result of a 12 week class with hundreds and hundreds of pages of reading from the minds of history's greatest philosophers:

It is equally rational as it is irrational. There is no definite answer... so believe what makes sense to you. Its not possible to prove or disprove any of this because it is not an experimental hypothesis. It is all conceptual.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 11:15 AM
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Hard Determinism does not allow free will.

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or to not act.
To perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility.
By free will a person shapes their own life.
Freedom is often restricted in the actions of small children by adults, who know more than the child.

Will is identical to volition.
Volition contains definitions of involuntary, voluntary.

In the brain and body systems are evidence of involuntary, voluntary and semivoluntary processes.

Young persons often times consult older more wise persons when they are making a decision where their free will is going to be used.
The strongest evidence of free will is the will to live.
Omniscence and omnipotence are qualities of a Supreme Being that only in the hard determinist perspective preclude free will.

Compatible determinists accept free will.

Arguing with a determinist about free will is not necessary.
Hard determinists if you trace their reasoning to its logical conclusion are never responsible for their actions.
So how does a hard determinist reconcile when someone commits a crime against them and injures them?
Why they want the criminal to be held accountable and responsible for their actions and behaviors dont they.
Thus contradicting their own immutable perspective of reality.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by fmcanarney
 


very well done... i probably should have said hard determinism when i presented the argument against free will in my post.



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