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If God Is Omnipotent, Than There Is No Freewill

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posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 08:38 PM
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If this God truly was omnipotent in the sense that he knows all, past, present, and, future, then humans do not have free will. In another debate I was involved in, a theist told me that God already knows whether I am going to heaven, or hell... If God already knows then how do I have freewill??? Every choice that I make, God knew that I was going to make that choice, so all along I was destined to make that "choice".

if God truly knew “all”, then there is nothing God should have to “do” because it is all written. God is in a sense, watching a movie. He knows all the scenes, and what will happen, how it began and how it will end. In the process of watching a movie that you already know all the scenes, and lines to. If you had to wonder, or hope a scene would turn out the way you like. If you got mad that the movie wasn’t good. Any of those emotions would clearly indicate that you haven’t watched the movie before, and therefore didn’t know what would happen… God clearly exhibits childish humans emotions such as those, which indicates he doesn’t know. If he truly knew all, past, present, and future, there would be nothing that he should have to be jealous of, or angry of, or want… You stating that God wants his children to go to heaven tells me he doesn’t know who really is going to heaven. God shouldn’t want anything like that if he was truly omnipotent, because he would already know who was going to heaven, and who wasn’t. God cannot want something, and be omnipotent.




posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 08:48 PM
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Can god create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

Man made god in his own image, and uses god to explain things mankind does not understand.

What is God? Ask her, maybe she will speak to you!



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
If this God truly was omnipotent in the sense that he knows all, past, present, and, future, then humans do not have free will. In another debate I was involved in, a theist told me that God already knows whether I am going to heaven, or hell... If God already knows then how do I have freewill??? Every choice that I make, God knew that I was going to make that choice, so all along I was destined to make that "choice".

if God truly knew “all”, then there is nothing God should have to “do” because it is all written. God is in a sense, watching a movie. He knows all the scenes, and what will happen, how it began and how it will end. In the process of watching a movie that you already know all the scenes, and lines to. If you had to wonder, or hope a scene would turn out the way you like. If you got mad that the movie wasn’t good. Any of those emotions would clearly indicate that you haven’t watched the movie before, and therefore didn’t know what would happen… God clearly exhibits childish humans emotions such as those, which indicates he doesn’t know. If he truly knew all, past, present, and future, there would be nothing that he should have to be jealous of, or angry of, or want… You stating that God wants his children to go to heaven tells me he doesn’t know who really is going to heaven. God shouldn’t want anything like that if he was truly omnipotent, because he would already know who was going to heaven, and who wasn’t. God cannot want something, and be omnipotent.


God knows everything. Past, present, and future. It would be better to say that God knows all possible outcomes in every situation. Today we are finding out that quatum physics scientists can coduct precise tests based on pure math. Taking into all account the variables in any forseeable outcome possible. God is better than that. According to quantum physics all the knowledge that there can be already is. Scientists call it simply, "information". Because of this, they believe time travel will be possible because of quantum information. God is higher than this. He made everything and therefore knows everything, past, present, and future. This does not take away free will. When you do something, God knew it would happen because of all the possibilities and he can see ahead to where you will go. So freewill exists along with total knowledge by God.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:25 PM
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There's no need to bring god into this. Free will is impossible. Period.

The thing in your head that creates the illusion of will is the product of a whole lot of causes, your choice is the reaction to these causes. There'll be no cheating.

You, everything you are and stand for, all your opinions are reactions to the world around you.

If you truly had free will you should be able to stop your thoughtflow and think about nothing, but that's impossible. You think, therefore you think you are. Even when you sleep it's very active although in a subconcious state.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:26 PM
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there is the arguement that god cannot be omniscient AND omnipotent bc if he knows everything then he is powerless to change anything since he already knows if he changes it or not. Thus an OMNISCIENT god would have no freewill either. so dont feel bad lol. I personally feel like I have nothing but freewill since there is no god so to speak



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:33 PM
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If you are going to embrace the notion of God as human personality, with similar dialectics and paradigms, you will obviously find numerous incongruities and logical disconnects that are representative of our inability to express, in language, what God is.

You want answers that can be embraced by words. Perhaps there is irony in our constant exercises attempting to express the infinite in terms 'we' can grasp.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:36 PM
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you my friend have nailed it. that is the exact question I have been asking believers and people of the cloth for years. If God knows everything then your life is predestined, and if it is already preordained then there is no free will. You do not need to know your future for it to be predetermined, just the fact that it is already known makes it preordained.

So if God is Omnipotent then when he created my spirit he knew whether or not I would repent or be saved. So If he knew that I would not be saved then why did he allow me to be born and grow knowing full well I would spend eternity in Hell. If that is exactly what has happens that makes God a bit of a Sadist doesn't it?

[edit on 13-9-2008 by jwstarry]



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by AlexG141989
 


An interesting point AlexG

In the New Testament book of 2nd Peter it says:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Source

This is a scripture that helped me as I slowly let go of modern Christianity about a year ago... If an all-powerful God with an all-powerful will wants to save everyone, He should be able to, but there is a Hell or Lake of Fire, in the Bible. Therefore clearly He is willing that some should perish because he refuses to break their free-will in order to save them. If we are loved so much with a divine and perfect love than God should be able to administer tough love and even break free will...

Clearly Christianity isn't a religion of reason or knowledge but of faith, and that's perfectly fine, because a religion isn't necessarily supposed to be logical, its about belief... but you're right, if God knows all (or if the future is entirely cause and effect in nature) then there is no free will...

For the philosophical question look up Determinism...




[edit on 13-9-2008 by Titen-Sxull]

[edit on 13-9-2008 by Titen-Sxull]



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:52 PM
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God knows everything. Past, present, and future. It would be better to say that God knows all possible outcomes in every situation. Today we are finding out that quatum physics scientists can coduct precise tests based on pure math. Taking into all account the variables in any forseeable outcome possible. God is better than that. According to quantum physics all the knowledge that there can be already is. Scientists call it simply, "information". Because of this, they believe time travel will be possible because of quantum information. God is higher than this. He made everything and therefore knows everything, past, present, and future. This does not take away free will. When you do something, God knew it would happen because of all the possibilities and he can see ahead to where you will go. So freewill exists along with total knowledge by God.


No, it doesn't


you my friend have nailed it. that is the exact question I have been asking believers and people of the cloth for years. If God knows everything then your life is predestined, and if it is already preordained then there is no free will. You do not need to know your future for it to be predetermined, just the fact that it is already known makes it preordained.

So if God is Omnipotent then when he created my spirit he knew whether or not I would repent or be saved. So If he knew that I would not be saved then why did he allow me to be born and grow knowing full well I would spend eternity in Hell. If that is exactly what has happens that makes God a bit of a Sadist doesn't it?


Yeah, I have never gotten a clear, logical answer to this...



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:53 PM
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Pashaa.

Free will has been granted to test you. You do with it what you will. In the end it is the love you make.

Is equal to. The love you take.

Meet my little freind. The greenish foul smelling putrid degenerate hate and angst of humanity.

[edit on 9/13/2008 by jpm1602]

[edit on 9/13/2008 by jpm1602]



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:55 PM
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I won't even try to answer this question but it's one that I have asked on many occassion and never had a decent answer for ... until I read "The Shack".

I didn't purchase the book and had no interest in reading it but my Mother in law left it at my house and one of my children put it in my book back before we went on vacation. Being extremely bored one morning I picked it up and found that I wasn't able to put it down.

Normally I wouldn't recommend a book when responding to a post but if you really are seeking an answer, at the very least, The Shack is a brilliantly written book that will get your mind thinking about who God is in a whole new way.

Jemison



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
If this God truly was omnipotent in the sense that he knows all, past, present, and, future, then humans do not have free will.


So says a human being that is not a Ominpotent being. If God is Ominpotent, then God is the only one that can truly understand the term Ominpotent Being. You're basic level understanding of what a Ominpotent being is like is a falicy.

Are you one of those people that would get an Inturnship at a fortune 500 company and think you knew better then the President of the company? Maybe you are...




posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 10:07 PM
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reply to post by Incarnated
 


are you serious? is that the point you want to argue? that I dont understand the word omnipotent? Omnipotent is a Human word, given to man by God to explain more about God. God didn't say I am kjsifo and since you are not a God like me you will never understand what that means so I will not explain it to you. I know excatly what the word omnipotent means and what it means it be omnipotent.

your example of "Are you one of those people that would get an Inturnship at a fortune 500 company and think you knew better then the President of the company" holds no water.

what you are saying is that you get a job at a Fortune 500 company and the boss tells you that since you have no wealth now or in your past, you will never understand the word "fortune" and hence you are doomed to live a life in poverty and you walk away going. daa... ok....sounds right to me.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 10:13 PM
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Normally I wouldn't recommend a book when responding to a post but if you really are seeking an answer, at the very least, The Shack is a brilliantly written book that will get your mind thinking about who God is in a whole new way.


How about you explain it to me???


So says a human being that is not a Ominpotent being. If God is Ominpotent, then God is the only one that can truly understand the term Ominpotent Being. You're basic level understanding of what a Ominpotent being is like is a falicy.

Are you one of those people that would get an Inturnship at a fortune 500 company and think you knew better then the President of the company? Maybe you are...


bieng a smartass and avoiding the actual question huh???



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by Incarnated

So says a human being that is not a Ominpotent being. If God is Ominpotent, then God is the only one that can truly understand the term Ominpotent Being. You're basic level understanding of what a Ominpotent being is like is a falicy.

Are you one of those people that would get an Inturnship at a fortune 500 company and think you knew better then the President of the company? Maybe you are...



This is a terrible analogy Incarnated ... but I see what you are saying, none the less


Your first point is the problem I have with the idea of God and it's application within our society.

Humans cannot contradict or second guess "The Word Of God" because "Humans are mere mortals so humans cannot possibly understand the plan that God has, so we must just accept what the Bible says. If it a discovery contradicts The Word Of God, it is wrong. If you continue to believe in these discoveries that contradict The Word Of God, you will suffer eternal damnation."

This philosphy is a method of social control, pure and simple.

Religions use this to keep their power base, extend their sphere of influence and to make sure the agenda set down by the ruling elite is followed.

It also clearly, tries to take away humanities free will.

"You can only believe in the word of God."

Where is the free will here?



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by AlexG141989
 


Ohh, if God CANNOT give you free will then God is also not omnipotent.

Either way, God is not omnipotent for people who don't think God is and vice versa.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by Jazzyguy
 


and if he can't give us freewill then he is not omnipotent, therefore he is no God



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 11:08 PM
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The first thing I'd like to know is exactly what your definition of free will is. That is a huge thing to look over and the entire argument cannot start until you give a valid starting point, if that makes sense?



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 11:17 PM
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Alex.

Considering your scowling avatar and some rather interesting threads.

You worry me.

I'd much rather put my resources into help of others for humanitary purpose.

But that's just me.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 11:20 PM
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Not quite sure I know what you mean jpm?

I don't have an avatar so I don't see how it's "scowling" nor do I understand why I worry you..I hope you aren't saying I should stay out of this conversation for some reason? Forgive me if I misread you, but my post was an honest, significant question that needs to be brought up before any debate can ensue regarding the essence of free will.

[edit on 13-9-2008 by Alexander_Supertramp]



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