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Muslim extremists conspiring to overthrow Great Britain

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posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:23 AM
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Here's a post I made in another thread, parts of the quran some people seem to ignore, even terrorists. This is proof that Islam is a Peaceful religion, too bad about the ignorant terrorists. lol


Being friends with other people of other religions, and spreading peace.
[Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."


An example of terrorists, extremists etc.
[Quran 7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say,
"We found our parents doing this, and GOD
has commanded us to do it." Say,
"GOD never advocates sin.
Are you saying about GOD
what you do not know?"


Obvious quote of the fact that people should have peace over other people and faiths.
[Quran 49:13]"O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant. "


Many extremists are like this, but god forbids it.
[Quran 5:87] ... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.


Sounds like what this website teachs lol
[Quran: 7:199] ......You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

This REALLY goes against the terrorists views.
Quran 5:32] "......, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. .............."
[Quran 2:256] "There shall be no compulsion in religion..."


This pretty much goes against the terrorists views
[Quran 6:151] "...... You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."


An OBVIOUS quote on PEACE.
[Quran 8:61]"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."


NO EXCUSES! you stupid terrorists
[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."

A lot of this coming from dodgy corrupt so called muslims in power, of course it is forbidden
We reserve the abode of the Hereafter for those who do not seek exaltation on earth, nor corruption. The ultimate victory belongs to the righteous. (28:83)

More peaceful quotes
(16:90) GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.

Terrorists, extremists, and those who follow the hadiths even thou it goes against some of the teachings of the quran.
[15:90-91] We will deal with the dividers. They accept the Quran only partially.

There should be NO extremism in Islam, no radicals.
[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

You cannot kill yourselves Terrorists!
[4:29] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

Each time these terrorists attack they destroy lives, obviously this is forbidden
[2:05] As soon as he leaves, he roams the earth corruptingly, destroying properties and lives. GOD does not love corruption.

You have freedom in islam, there is no need to be too strict, as long as your heart is in the right place.
[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

Be good
[2:148] Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, GOD will summon you all. GOD is Omnipotent.


Examine yourselves, don't blindly follow others, research yourself
[39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Everyone should be judged equally, no matter how rich or poor etc they are
[4:135] O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.


Stop taking peoples rights away! e.g Saudi Arabia and their stupid laws
[11:85] "O my people, you shall give full measure and full weight, equitably. Do not cheat the people out of their rights, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.

Stop blindly following terrorists or extremist groups, or your fathers, learn and research yourself
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Saudi Arabia banned the selling of roses lol, this is wrong we are free to enjoy what god has given us
[7:32] Say, "Who prohibited the nice things GOD has created for His creatures, and the good provisions?" Say, "Such provisions are to be enjoyed in this life by those who believe. Moreover, the good provisions will be exclusively theirs on the Day of Resurrection." We thus explain the revelations for people who know.

Stop following those who are astray, e.g terrorists, or give too much limits to people
[5:77] Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth….

The Quran tells us of how some humans use religion as an ideological tool in the oppression of others for corrupt and political agendas. But obviously it forbids this.
[3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

[2:79] Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.


Fight in defence, but never aggress.
[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not AGGRESS. GOD does not love the AGGRESSORS.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not AGGRESS; AGGRESSION is permitted only against the AGGRESSORS.


At time of war, you must help protect even those of other faiths.
[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.

If god wanted everyone to believe, he could MAKE them, but god wants FREE WILL, so why the hell would muslims force others to believe, like some think, that would be against gods will for us to have FREE WILL, duh
"Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers." 10:99.
[18:29] Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve...........
[88:21-22] You shall remind, for your mission is to deliver this reminder. You have no power over them.
[2:148] Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, GOD will summon you all. GOD is Omnipotent.
[ 25:57] Say, "I do not ask you for any money. All I seek is to help you find the right path to your Lord, if this is what you choose."
[74:35-37] This is one of the great miracles.A warning to the human race.For those among you who wish to advance, or regress.
[76:29] This is a reminder: whoever wills shall choose the path to his Lord.
[33:72] We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.


Now please Read this, and you will see the truth. Extremists and terrorists are not true muslims, because they are far away from their religion.


[edit on 14-9-2008 by _Phoenix_]




posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:31 AM
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Now I hope some people actually read the quotes I showed. Especially the last part about free will

Thank you.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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Here's another post I made, To those muslims who follow the Hadiths even more than the Quran itself, please think again.

Those who follow hadiths(which has many corrupt bad rules that muslims follow)are wrong
"Say (O Muhammad), 'Whose testimony is greater?' Say, 'God is the witness between me and you that THIS QURAN was given to me to preach it to you, and to whomever it reaches.' However, you certainly bear witness that you set up other gods beside God (by upholding other sources beside Quran). Say, 'I will never do what you are doing; I disown your idolworship.'" (6:19)

"When you read the Quran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. And we place shields on their hearts, to prevent them from understanding Quran, and deafness in their ears. Consequently, when you preach your Lord IN THE QURAN ALONE they run away in aversion." (17:45-46)

"We did not leave anything out of this book, then all will be gathered before their Lord (for judgment). Those who do not believe our verses are deaf and dumb; in total darkness. God sends astray whomever He wills, and directs whomever He wills in the right path." (6:38-39)

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? (6:114)

Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.[31:6]

"We have sent down the revelation, and we will surely preserve it." (15:9)

"Indeed, this is an honorable scripture. Falsehood could never enter it in the past, present, or future; a revelation from the most wise, the most praised." (41:41-42)

"Shall I seek OTHER THAN GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? ....The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words; He is the hearer, the omniscient. Yet, if you obey the majority of people, they will take you away from the path of God. That is because they follow CONJECTURE, and they fail to think." (6:114-116)

"They insist upon following conjecture, when the guidance is given to them herein from their Lord." (53:23)



Now to those muslims who you hear about going crazy over things about Mohammed, they are REALLY wrong, the Quran says so.
So these violent protesters and death threats you hear about, does not represent true islam, because some of what their doing is against Islam, and it's almost Idol worshiping Mohammed, which is wrong. It's just IGNORANCE IGNORANCE AND MORE IGNORANCE, lol, let me show you.


People who idol worship Mohammed are wrong.
"Say (O Muhammad), 'I am no more than a human being like you. It has been revealed to me that your God is ONE GOD. Therefore, you shall observe Him ALONE, and ask His forgiveness, AND WOE TO THE IDOLWORSHIPERS.'" (41:6)

"Say (O Muhammad), 'If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would have run out before my Lord runs out of words, even if we supplied twice as much ink.' Say (O Muhammad), 'I am no more than a human being like you. It has been revealed to me that your God is ONE GOD. Thus, anyone who looks forward to meeting his Lord shall lead a righteous life, and NEVER SET UP ANY IDOLS beside his Lord.'" (18:109-110)

Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn. [3:79]




[edit on 14-9-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:35 AM
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Thanks for the quotes Phoenix...


And to anybody who has just joined this discussion, may i just say the source is from THE SUN newspaper, which is highly boycotted in Merseyside and other parts of the UK due to it's total ignorance, shoddy and insulting journalism and far-right opinions.
Most of us steer clear of that pathetic rag.

That and the daily mail, which is just a slightly polished up version aimed at a slightly more right wing, middle class (i.e t*ssers)

Both of them are highly biased and ignorant.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by mr-lizard
 


Yeah one of the only good things The sun has given us is Page 3 lol
Or is it good?







[edit on 14-9-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by Elemensa[/

good post, man. We all know the Muslims are terribly easy to offend, as they consider themselves different of other religions. This is probably due to the fact they're told all allong their youth that they are God's chosen and etc....etc...etc...let's put this aside

I'm not afraid to tell i don't like religions. They're putting invisible barriers between you and what you want to do and call it "morale".

THINK WITH REASON. ACT WITH REASON. GIVE UP RELIGION !

[edit on 14/9/08 by Matt_Mulder]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 10:56 AM
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You'd be best to read the Quran before trying to disassemble it's underlying meaning. Like the Bible it has some noteworthy passages but it also has a disproportionally large number of quite hateful and disturbing lines. I haven't gone through and counted the instances but it seemed to me like there were many more examples of torture, mutilation and mass murder than in the Old Testament.

There's a number of places you can get a free Quran from like I did. Read it cover to cover last year for a comparative theology paper. Just google "order free Quran", you'll find at least a few willing to ship to your area. Read it for yourself.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by justme2


I'm not an "Apologist" either. Which is something else I find ignorant. It's that whole "You're either with us, or against us" "We're always right, you're wrong" attitude. And misquoting me is definitely NOT denying ignorance.


Just because you do not agree with them, don't paint them all as evil... And yes, history shows us that the Muslim religion is relatively peaceful. Have some Muslims done some REALLY horrible things, yes. But so have Christians and those belonging to every other religion known to man.


Yes I totally agree, I've had enough of these "You (fill n the blank) Apologist" comments haha, there is an apologist comment for almost every subject lol.

And your right about the idea of looking at the world too BLACK AND WHITE.(the problem terrorists have haha)
Nothing is black and white in this world, everything is grey, neutral etc

It's not so easy to say, were the good guys they're the bad guys, they are out enemy and your not etc.

We just need to remember about individuality too.

I would also like to add that it would be almost impossible to Judge all muslims and put them in the same group, because if you research there are "many" different groups of people who each follow a different view of Islam, so they actually follow different religions! lol.




[edit on 14-9-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by Mclaneinc
 


Just want say I loved your post, there was a feeling full of Justice and truth.

Peace.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 01:03 PM
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i can't even be bothered to read all these hate-filled replies...

i'm not even sure hot wings would care about reading a tafseer of the verse (that means explanation) that he keeps quoting, but here some are for the benefit of other readers who actually want to know what is really meant by the verse:

And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you, that is, from Mecca, and this was done after the Conquest of Mecca; sedition, their idolatry, is more grievous, more serious, than slaying, them in the Sacred Enclosure or while in a state of pilgrimage inviolability, the thing that you greatly feared. But fight them not by the Sacred Mosque, that is, in the Sacred Enclosure, until they should fight you there; then if they fight you, there, slay them, there (a variant reading drops the alif in the three verbs [sc. wa-lā taqtilūhum, hattā yaqtulūkum, fa-in qatalūkum, so that the sense is ‘slaying’ in all three, and not just ‘fighting’]) — such, killing and expulsion, is the requital of disbelievers.

(2:191 - tafseer al jalalayn - over 500 years old)



Abu Ja`far Ar-Razi said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah commented on what Allah said:


(And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you,)

Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "This was the first Ayah about fighting that was revealed in Al-Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Allah's Messenger used to fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara'ah (chapter 9 in the Qur'an) was revealed.'' `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said similarly, then he said that this was later abrogated by the Ayah:

(then kill them wherever you find them) (9:5).

However, this statement is not plausible, because Allah's statement:

(...those who fight you) applies only to fighting the enemies who are engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the Ayah means, `Fight those who fight you', just as Allah said (in another Ayah):


(...and fight against the Mushrikin collectively as they fight against you collectively.) (9:36)

This is why Allah said later in the Ayah:

(And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.) meaning, `Your energy should be spent on fighting them, just as their energy is spent on fighting you, and on expelling them from the areas from which they have expelled you, as a law of equality in punishment.'

(tafseer ibn-katheer - over 700 years old)

SEE HOW IT MENTIONS THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU -
i.e like is happening in iraq or palestine for example...

it DOES NOT MEAN go and bomb the london tubes etc, your ignorance to this fact shows that you are just like the muslims who take the verses out of context to justify killing the public solely to make a point...

and, by the way, i NEVER said that i am a "moderate" muslim, because i find that these extremists are just as bad as the ones who take things out of context (in islaam, there are 2 types of extremist - extremely passive or extremely rebellious)

i thank justme2 fo having an open mind unlike most on this thread, as he uses comman sense and DOES NOT take verses out of context to prove his points etc...

hot_wings, fyi you DO NOT KNOW my religion better than i, as i study it unlike most ignorant muslims, and you are just like the fools who think they always know better than everyone else, even the qualified scholars!

i do not have time for people like you, i have a child to look after, duties to my husband as a wife, and moreover to my Lord as His slave...
i won't sit here for hours on end trying to argue with you, it is simply not worth it. it is the blessed month of ramadhaan for us & i will not waste my time when i have far better things to do!

one last thing...
i went to a primarily WHITE school both secondary and primary...
at primary school there we TWO mixed race kids in my year and about 5 asians in a year of over 200 people!
at secondary school there were not much more than that!
so the assumption was WRONG : )

[edit on 14-9-2008 by eyescryforALLAAH07]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 02:07 PM
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Thanks for all the Quranic verses and interpretations. Even though I've read the Quran, I had forgotten a lot of those verses, so all of that was very enlightening.

Thanks.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 02:19 PM
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[edit on 9/14/2008 by ZindoDoone]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 02:46 PM
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Regarding the ops post.

Muslims will not 'out-breed' Brits, while the demographics are over-whelmingly White Britons.

Just ignore it guys, it's inflammatory and, to be honest, the muslims are not going to 'take-over' GB
There is more chance of an invasion that manages to trailblaze through from the ME to Britain.
There is just too many Christians in the way, it's too far and it would be a bloodbath for the attackers anyway.


So everyone just take a chill pill and cool down



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by _Phoenix_

And your right about the idea of looking at the world too BLACK AND WHITE.(the problem terrorists have haha)
Nothing is black and white in this world, everything is grey, neutral etc

It's not so easy to say, were the good guys they're the bad guys, they are out enemy and your not etc.

We just need to remember about individuality too.

I would also like to add that it would be almost impossible to Judge all muslims and put them in the same group, because if you research there are "many" different groups of people who each follow a different view of Islam, so they actually follow different religions! lol.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by _Phoenix_]



phoenix, there are things i agree with and things i disagrewe with in your posts...
you seem to be under the impression that muslims shouldn't follow ahadeeth, but i think you should know that many ahadeeth actually explain the meaning of the qur'aanic verses to us so that we DON'T interpret things for ourselves...

you are correct that there are many so-called muslim groups out there, which actually are NOT muslim
such as the shi`ah (they are polytheist as they believe many erroneous things, including believing their "imaams" control the atoms of the universe!)
the alawis, the ahmadis, the "nation of islaam / 5%", some of the barelwi sect... these groups believe in following false prophets when it is the creed of a muslim that NO new prophet will come after the prophet muhammad, peace be upon him, thus they are not muslims...

yes, you cannot tar all muslims with the same brush either, as many have no or little knowledge of the religion and what it teaches, or think they can interpret things for themselves (and if everyone did this, than inevitably everyone would be following their own sect!)
the muslims upon the TRUTH follow that which has been taught before, the classical rulings which are well and truly established, and the scholars use these rulings to make judgements on recent issues etc...

most muslims who follow a school of jurisprudence CORRECTLY from amongst the ahl-us-sunnah / people of the sunnah aka "sunni" are upon guidance well and truely established...
my profile has some of my favourite sites which you are welcome to check out insha'Allaah

and by the way... WHY do people seem to be talking about muslims as if they are another race???
HELLO i am WHITE, my husband is WHITE, many of my close friends are also WHITE muslims...
off the top of my head i can probably think of about 30-40 WHITE muslims that i know!
muslims are not just asian or arab... did you know that the biggest muslim community is in indonesia???


[edit on 14-9-2008 by eyescryforALLAAH07]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


So the part that seems odd to me is the quote;


those who do not fight you because of religion,


Seems that many Muslims are very sensitive about their religion, and always seem to find a reason to be fighting about religion.

Then you might want to square with the fact that although you claim that Allah is against aggressors, the entire history of Islam has been one of aggression.

Being that Muslims conquered Israel about a thousand years ago, who is trying to throw whom out of whose home?

What bothers me most is that I don't hear anything from the pro-Muslim crowd about what to do about radical Muslims. Maybe instead of just bleating abuot being singled out, you might be offerring suggestions as to how to root radical Muslims out of your community.

Anyone got any ideas how to stop radical Muslim terrorists?



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by eyescryforALLAAH07
i can't even be bothered to read all these hate-filled replies...

i'm not even sure hot wings would care about reading a tafseer of the verse (that means explanation) that he keeps quoting, but here some are for the benefit of other readers who actually want to know what is really meant by the verse:

And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you, that is, from Mecca, and this was done after the Conquest of Mecca; sedition, their idolatry, is more grievous, more serious, than slaying, them in the Sacred Enclosure or while in a state of pilgrimage inviolability, the thing that you greatly feared. But fight them not by the Sacred Mosque, that is, in the Sacred Enclosure, until they should fight you there; then if they fight you, there, slay them, there (a variant reading drops the alif in the three verbs [sc. wa-lā taqtilūhum, hattā yaqtulūkum, fa-in qatalūkum, so that the sense is ‘slaying’ in all three, and not just ‘fighting’]) — such, killing and expulsion, is the requital of disbelievers.

(2:191 - tafseer al jalalayn - over 500 years old)



Abu Ja`far Ar-Razi said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah commented on what Allah said:


(And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you,)

Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "This was the first Ayah about fighting that was revealed in Al-Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Allah's Messenger used to fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara'ah (chapter 9 in the Qur'an) was revealed.'' `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said similarly, then he said that this was later abrogated by the Ayah:

(then kill them wherever you find them) (9:5).

However, this statement is not plausible, because Allah's statement:

(...those who fight you) applies only to fighting the enemies who are engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the Ayah means, `Fight those who fight you', just as Allah said (in another Ayah):


(...and fight against the Mushrikin collectively as they fight against you collectively.) (9:36)

This is why Allah said later in the Ayah:

(And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.) meaning, `Your energy should be spent on fighting them, just as their energy is spent on fighting you, and on expelling them from the areas from which they have expelled you, as a law of equality in punishment.'

(tafseer ibn-katheer - over 700 years old)

SEE HOW IT MENTIONS THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU -
i.e like is happening in iraq or palestine for example...

it DOES NOT MEAN go and bomb the london tubes etc, your ignorance to this fact shows that you are just like the muslims who take the verses out of context to justify killing the public solely to make a point...

and, by the way, i NEVER said that i am a "moderate" muslim, because i find that these extremists are just as bad as the ones who take things out of context (in islaam, there are 2 types of extremist - extremely passive or extremely rebellious)

i thank justme2 fo having an open mind unlike most on this thread, as he uses comman sense and DOES NOT take verses out of context to prove his points etc...

hot_wings, fyi you DO NOT KNOW my religion better than i, as i study it unlike most ignorant muslims, and you are just like the fools who think they always know better than everyone else, even the qualified scholars!

i do not have time for people like you, i have a child to look after, duties to my husband as a wife, and moreover to my Lord as His slave...
i won't sit here for hours on end trying to argue with you, it is simply not worth it. it is the blessed month of ramadhaan for us & i will not waste my time when i have far better things to do!

one last thing...
i went to a primarily WHITE school both secondary and primary...
at primary school there we TWO mixed race kids in my year and about 5 asians in a year of over 200 people!
at secondary school there were not much more than that!
so the assumption was WRONG : )

[edit on 14-9-2008 by eyescryforALLAAH07]

I wanted to find someone like you to discuss Islam in relation to Hadith with. Let us look for the true belief, it is the month of Ramadan as you mentioned so let's do some good.

I don't believe Hadith should be followed (.) full stop. Your argument is that Hadith is used to explain the meaning of certain verses, well makes sense because many Quranic verses wouldn't make much sense without it.

God gave us wills, god at the end of the day could have made us all Muslims but he chose to give us well. Maybe you decide to follow which ever interpretation of the Quran you prefer. That is my belief. The Quran clearly states that it is for all times, I don't think one system and one system only can resolve all the issues of all people with completely different cultures for all times. I think it is only common sense for Islam to have different interpretation which in result will be flexible enough to solve everyone's problems.

This is very moderate since it will not have the same solutions for different problems under different context. If Islam is to be for all times, for it to survive it needs to be flexible and backwards compatible. New systems will arise in future which will replace Islam, the Quran should be flexible enough to come up with a new interpretation which will be compatible with the invading system.

Make sense, if it doesn't, make your own sense



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


So the part that seems odd to me is the quote;


those who do not fight you because of religion,


Seems that many Muslims are very sensitive about their religion, and always seem to find a reason to be fighting about religion.

Then you might want to square with the fact that although you claim that Allah is against aggressors, the entire history of Islam has been one of aggression.

Being that Muslims conquered Israel about a thousand years ago, who is trying to throw whom out of whose home?

What bothers me most is that I don't hear anything from the pro-Muslim crowd about what to do about radical Muslims. Maybe instead of just bleating abuot being singled out, you might be offerring suggestions as to how to root radical Muslims out of your community.

Anyone got any ideas how to stop radical Muslim terrorists?

Cherry picking, caught red hande lol

Many other verses provided the answer.

Muslims conquering Israel makes them aggressors? OOO not a good logic to stick with.

OK there is no solution unless the west understands the problem lol, as long as you pretend that the problem is the Muslim extremists or the Muslim terrorists or all Muslims('they wanna kill us cause we are free'
), than forget about the solution. Its like trying to solve the following equasion, 2 + 2 =, as long as you are ignorant enough to not understand what that + sign stands for you won't be able to solve the problem, even if you know what the other three symbols stand for. Stop using the baby problem-solving method of 'trial and error', there are many other methods which will help you come to better conclusions.



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


well i guess we disagree, because the creed of a muslim is to follow qur'aan AND ahadeeth, and whosoever denies the ahadeeth is a disbeliever

ALLAAH says:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "obey Allah and the messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #32)

so, as we believe the qur'aan to be the speech of ALLAAH, then HOW can we obey the messenger?
the only way to do this is to follow the sunnah which is obeying HIM...

we, as muslims, believe that the ahadeeth are ALSO wahee (revalation from Allaah) and thus this is another reason why they MUST be followed...
ahadeeth do not only explain the verses of the scripture, but also they relay the ettiquettes of everyday life of the prophet and his followers, and many other things, which the believers must follow to the best of their ability...


those of the ahl-us-sunnah (the people of the sunnah) follow 4 things:
1 - al-Qur'aan primarily
2 - as-sunnah
3 - qiyaas - analogical deduction done by scholars to produce rulings from the qur'aan and ahadeeth (and we follow the classical rulings which have been established for over 1300 years, which are used to make recent rulings if circumstances differ slightly and no ruling can be found from the classical scholars)
4 - ijma` - the consensus (i.e we do not deviate from the well established majority from history)

those upon the true path of ahl-us-sunnah follow a school of jurisprudence / law, which are 4 in number and are 1200-1300 years old...

if one deviates from the path and chooses to subject interpret to "fit the times" as you think one should, this causes nothing but disunity and discord, for everyone would have their own ruling, own implementation etc, and thus everyone would be disunited and in confusion....

i will forward you things to read if you really are interested as this is a bit of a lengthy topic... in short, we would be in extreme turmoil if everyone left the classical way ( and this is one reason why we have so many confused muslims, ignorant muslims, disunited muslims and deviants existing today...)

[edit on 14-9-2008 by eyescryforALLAAH07]



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by eyescryforALLAAH07
reply to post by Ownification
 


well i guess we disagree, because the creed of a muslim is to follow qur'aan AND ahadeeth, and whosoever denies the ahadeeth is a disbeliever

ALLAAH says:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "obey Allah and the messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #32)

so, as we believe the qur'aan to be the speech of ALLAAH, then HOW can we obey the messenger?
the only way to do this is to follow the sunnah which is obeying HIM...

we, as muslims, believe that the ahadeeth are ALSO wahee (revalation from Allaah) and thus this is another reason why they MUST be followed...
ahadeeth do not only explain the verses of the scripture, but also they relay the ettiquettes of everyday life of the prophet and his followers, and many other things, which the believers must follow to the best of their ability...


those of the ahl-us-sunnah (the people of the sunnah) follow 4 things:
1 - al-Qur'aan primarily
2 - as-sunnah
3 - qiyaas - analogical deduction done by scholars to produce rulings from the qur'aan and ahadeeth (and we follow the classical rulings which have been established for over 1300 years, which are used to make recent rulings if circumstances differ slightly and no ruling can be found from the classical scholars)
4 - ijma` - the consensus (i.e we do not deviate from the well established majority from history)

those upon the true path of ahl-us-sunnah follow a school of jurisprudence / law, which are 4 in number and are 1200-1300 years old...

if one deviates from the path and chooses to subject interpret to "fit the times" as you think one should, this causes nothing but disunity and discord, for everyone would have their own ruling, own implementation etc, and thus everyone would be disunited and in confusion....

i will forward you things to read if you really are interested as this is a bit of a lengthy topic... in short, we would be in extreme turmoil if everyone left the classical way ( and this is one reason why we have so many confused muslims, ignorant muslims, disunited muslims and deviants existing today...)

[edit on 14-9-2008 by eyescryforALLAAH07]

Obey the messenger only applied for a period of time, it wouldn't make sense at all if we continue following it till now because I don't believe Allah (SWT), Astaqhfurullah, is dumb enough to not save the Hadith for all time just like the Quran. Why would Allah(SWT) tell us clearly that Quran will be preserved by doesn't mention Hadith. The above verse you posted does not say it is for all times.

As I said before Islam through interpretation is very flexible which makes it the most moderate religion today, period. If Allah(SWT) told us that Hadith is for all times than no doubth it would be easy for all of us to recognize that, that is truely God's well.

I have a break i'll talk to you after



posted on Sep, 14 2008 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


my brother, i would rather talk with you about this not on such a thread as it is confusing to people who do not know islaam...
you will find that ahadeeth ARE preserved but you will only be able to know this by following a school of jurisprudence (i follow the hanafi school of law, which i chose because it was the earliest and imaam abu haneefah met some of the companions and collected hadeeth from them directly!)

please, if you want to know more, and you really do love Allaah and His messenger, you will find out why the ummah have been following ahadeeth since the time of the prophet, and i can forward you some useful material insha'Allaah (there is a lecture by shaykh abu yusuf riyadh ul haq about "juristic differences" if you are confused on that issue too...)

Allaah says in surah al-imraan:

130 O you who believe! Eat not Riba (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear Allah that you may be successful.
131 And fear the Fire, which is prepared for the disbelievers.
132 And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may obtain mercy.
133 And march forth in the way (which leads to) forgiveness from your Lord, and for Paradise as wide as are the heavens and the earth, prepared for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious - see V.2:2).

surah an-nisa

13 These are the limits (set by) Allah (or ordainments as regards laws of inheritance), and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), to abide therein, and that will be the great success.
14 And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and transgresses His limits, He will cast him into the Fire, to abide therein; and he shall have a disgraceful torment.
......
59 O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority (the scholars). (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.
60 Have you seen those (hyprocrites) who claim that they believe in that which has been sent down to you, and that which was sent down before you, and they wish to go for judgement (in their disputes) to the Taghoot (false judges, etc.) while they have been ordered to reject them. But Shaytaan (Satan) wishes to lead them far astray.
61 And when it is said to them: "Come to what Allah has sent down and to the Messenger," you (Muhammad SAW) see the hypocrites turn away from you (Muhammad SAW) with aversion.
62 How then, when a catastrophe befalls them because of what their hands have sent forth, they come to you swearing by Allah, "We meant no more than goodwill and conciliation!"
63 They (hypocrites) are those of whom Allah knows what is in their hearts; so turn aside from them (do not punish them) but admonish them, and speak to them an effective word (i.e. to believe in Allah, worship Him, obey Him, and be afraid of Him) to reach their innerselves.
64 We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allahs Leave. If they (hypocrites), when they had been unjust to themselves, had come to you (Muhammad SAW) and begged Allahs Forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them: indeed, they would have found Allah All-Forgiving (One Who accepts repentance), Most Merciful.
65 But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.
69 And whoso obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace, of the Prophets, the Siddiqoon, the martyrs, and the righteous. And how excellent these companions are!

[edit on 14-9-2008 by eyescryforALLAAH07]



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