Is the Mothman Beelzebub?, page 1
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Topic started on 12-9-2008 @ 07:53 PM by The time lord
Both the Mothman and Beelzebub are said to be winged creatures, both very demonic and both posess people and bring fear.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Mothman is the name given to a creature reported in the Charleston and Point Pleasant areas of West Virginia between November 12, 1966 (near Clendenin),[1] and December 1967. Most observers describe the Mothman as a winged man-sized creature with large reflective red eyes and large moth-like wings. The creature often appeared to have no head, with its eyes set into its chest. A number of hypotheses have been presented to explain eyewitness accounts, ranging from misidentification and coincidence, to paranormal phenomena and conspiracy theories.

www.occultopedia.com...
en.wikipedia.org...


Ba‘al Zebûb might mean 'Lord of Zebûb', referring to an unknown place called Zebûb, or 'Lord of things that fly' (zebûb being a Hebrew collective noun for 'fly', thus the common lay translation 'Lord of the Flies'). Thomas Kelly Cheyne suggested that it might be a derogatory corruption of Ba'al Zebul, 'Lord of the High Place', or 'Lord of Heaven'.[2] The SeptuagintA renders the name as Baalzeboub, SeptuagintB as Baal myîan 'Baal of flies', but Symmachus the Ebionite may have reflected a tradition of its offensive ancient name when he rendered it as Beelzeboul (Cath.Ency.).

The source for the name Ba‘al Zebûb / Beelzebub is in 2 Kings 1.2–3,6,16 where King Ahaziah of Israel, after seriously injuring himself in a fall, sends messengers to inquire of Ba‘al Zebûb, the god of the Philistine city of Ekron, to learn if he will recover.

Ahaziah fell through the lattice in his upper chamber at Samaria and was injured. So he sent messengers whom he instructed: "Go inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this injury." (JPS translation)
Elijah the Prophet then condemns Ahaziah to die by Yahweh's words because Ahaziah sought counsel from Ba‘al Zebûb rather than from Yahweh.

In Christianity, the name Beelzebub or Beelzebul may appear as an alternate name for Lucifer, the fallen angel or else may appear to refer to the name of a lesser devil. As with several religions, the names of any earlier foreign or "pagan" deities often became synonymous with the concept of an adversarial entity.

In Mark 3, verse 22, the Pharisees accuse Jesus of driving out demons by the power of Beelzeboul, prince of demons, the name also appearing in the expanded version in Matthew 12.24,27 and Luke 11.15,18–19. The name also occurs in Matthew 10.25.

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Lucifer, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (NIV translation)

Mothman


Beelzebub



reply posted on 19-9-2008 @ 10:20 AM by Merriman Weir
Firstly, I'm intrigued at your reading of Beelzebub. Are you taking it to be synonymous with Satan/the Devil &c?

Secondly, I'm similarly intrigued why should Beelzebub appear in America . There's a strange coincidence at work here, as, before I actually opened the thread, I was already making an analogy with 'American' comics, of which I'm generally a big fan of by the way. Then I saw the OP's avatar! Perhaps Keel 'high-strangeness' at work!

In American comics, as with Hollywood, if anything happens, it happens in America. Alien invasion? It happens in America. Gateway to hell opens? It opens in America. Pick a scenario, any scenario, and it happens in America. If popular media is any representation at all, more has happened to America in the last 100 years of than probably the last 1000 years of Europe combined! Although why this might be is perhaps a thread of its own.

The point I'm getting to, is why would Beelzebub appear in America? Other 'paranormal/supernatural/monster' creatures tend to have reasons why they might appear in America. Big Foot, if it is exists, is undoubtedly native fauna - as is the Thunderbird and so on. Whilst there as rough analogues to Mothman in other parts of the world, Beelzebub is one of a kind. So why appear (just) in America? What's so special about America that draws Beelzebub? I could write a list of crappy things about America that would probably interest Beelzebub to the extent he might make an appearance, but not much of it would be specific to America.

Other similarly significant 'one-offs' that are alleged to have appeared in history, like Jesus, are said to have been there to spread a message, and perhaps, in a sense, could have started anywhere on earth as long as the message was spread. However, Beezlebub - appearing as Mothman - doesn't appear to have a great message to spread. As has been pointed out, Mothman had no real message as such to spread; it was Indrid Cold that relayed any genuine communication.

I'm more interested you'd think Beezlebub would appear in a very small place in West Virgina.


reply posted on 19-9-2008 @ 02:10 PM by The time lord
Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Firstly, I'm intrigued at your reading of Beelzebub. Are you taking it to be synonymous with Satan/the Devil &c?

Secondly, I'm similarly intrigued why should Beelzebub appear in America . There's a strange coincidence at work here, as, before I actually opened the thread, I was already making an analogy with 'American' comics, of which I'm generally a big fan of by the way. Then I saw the OP's avatar! Perhaps Keel 'high-strangeness' at work!

In American comics, as with Hollywood, if anything happens, it happens in America. Alien invasion? It happens in America. Gateway to hell opens? It opens in America. Pick a scenario, any scenario, and it happens in America. If popular media is any representation at all, more has happened to America in the last 100 years of than probably the last 1000 years of Europe combined! Although why this might be is perhaps a thread of its own.

The point I'm getting to, is why would Beelzebub appear in America? Other 'paranormal/supernatural/monster' creatures tend to have reasons why they might appear in America. Big Foot, if it is exists, is undoubtedly native fauna - as is the Thunderbird and so on. Whilst there as rough analogues to Mothman in other parts of the world, Beelzebub is one of a kind. So why appear (just) in America? What's so special about America that draws Beelzebub? I could write a list of crappy things about America that would probably interest Beelzebub to the extent he might make an appearance, but not much of it would be specific to America.

Other similarly significant 'one-offs' that are alleged to have appeared in history, like Jesus, are said to have been there to spread a message, and perhaps, in a sense, could have started anywhere on earth as long as the message was spread. However, Beezlebub - appearing as Mothman - doesn't appear to have a great message to spread. As has been pointed out, Mothman had no real message as such to spread; it was Indrid Cold that relayed any genuine communication.

I'm more interested you'd think Beezlebub would appear in a very small place in West Virgina.


Your questions are very valid and I am happy to answer them with my theories as of self taught knowledge of things paranormal. For a start the Mothman has appeared in other countries too if you research it.

In terms of Beelzebub I have seen some strangeness with flies lately, not behaving so Flyish so I looked into it. That amoungst other strangenesses I have had. I was in my garden today, soaking the sun for the first time in ages since it has not been sunny it seems in the UK. I sat down thinking about this thread when a large butterfly wizzed past me and parked a few meters in front of me.
I thought, okay nearest thing to a Mothman, a butterfly with two red spots on each side of its wings. Anyway It was looking in my direction and I thought, well maybe man can be connected with nature somehow, since I had a surreal dream that a plant was waving at me moving side to side.
So I to decided to say in my mind, come closer butter fly I want to have a closer look. Then a minute later it flew and landed on my shirt, which of course was bright white and flew off again. Are my life experiences strange-yes probably.

Beezelbub and America can go hand in hand since Washington is full of Masonic symbols and the illuminati being associated with Satanic forces so America is a place to make or destroy in spiritual wealth.

A lot of the American disaster movies have to be made in America because if you did one based in China or Saudi Arabia, you would expect riots and national bans on the movies. This is why we never focus so much else where. Also budget costs and the spectacular city scapes have always been that much better in America anyway. Americans or what ever national movie always relates to their own culture people and language.

America is also quite a new mass of land to be populated by man, we never know if the old North America and Brazillian rainforests held unknown humanoid species which evolved in this isolated land.

Anyway all I am saying they could be related, but then again if fallen Angels or guardian Angels alike all will at some point have winged appearences anyway. They could be two different things or one of the same but with Satan in mind, he can just about be who he wants to be in the sight of man.


[edit on 19-9-2008 by The time lord]


reply posted on 19-9-2008 @ 03:42 PM by Merriman Weir
Originally posted by The time lord

Your questions are very valid and I am happy to answer them with my theories as of self taught knowledge of things paranormal. For a start the Mothman has appeared in other countries too if you research it.


I don't know whether you noticed, but I did mention that Mothman analogues have appeared elsewhere. I was thinking specifically of the Cornish Owlman when I wrote that but I'm familiar with others as well as the Mothman itself.


Beezelbub and America can go hand in hand since Washington is full of Masonic symbols and the illuminati being associated with Satanic forces so America is a place to make or destroy in spiritual wealth.


But don't a lot of these conspiracies inevitably end-up pointing the finger at Britain? So, why not Britain? Why not Tower Bridge in London rather than Silver Bridge? Or if, for some reason, Beelzebub is particular to only American cabals, then why Point Pleasant, a very small town on the western border of West Virginia, and not the Washington DC "associated with Satanic forces" as you claim?

A lot of the American disaster movies have to be made in America because if you did one based in China or Saudi Arabia, you would expect riots and national bans on the movies.


I'm not entirely sure this is a legitimate reason there aren't disaster/event films but China certainly has horror films, I'm sure a Mothman type film wouldn't be a problem.

This is why we never focus so much else where. Also budget costs and the spectacular city scapes have always been that much better in America anyway. Americans or what ever national movie always relates to their own culture people and language.


I suppose the major cities of Europe just aren't spectacular enough? Or, with regard to your point about China, Chinese cities aren't spectacular enough? Japan? Personally, I think this is more to do with Americentrism - "it has to happen here because we're the most important!" - but, as I said, perhaps that's best for another thread.


America is also quite a new mass of land to be populated by man, we never know if the old North America and Brazillian rainforests held unknown humanoid species which evolved in this isolated land.


Well, North America has had populations since at least the Clovis culture. That's quite a long time. If you're talking about evolution, you really have to think of fossil evidence. Where's the fossil evidence for Mothman's ancestors? Also, if you're trying to make some point about the size of America and how, apparently, recent human culture has inhabited that space, I'm not sure how it compares to Britain. Populated for 100,000s of years in a relatively tiny place and yet, Owlman! Not much room for 'who knows what's out there' here in Britain.


Anyway all I am saying they could be related, but then again if fallen Angels or guardian Angels alike all will at some point have winged appearences anyway. They could be two different things or one of the same but with Satan in mind, he can just about be who he wants to be in the sight of man.


But there's no real similarity other than the wings. You could say the same about anything with wings: sparrows, starlings and so on.


reply posted on 20-9-2008 @ 04:08 AM by Merriman Weir
Originally posted by Genus_Unknown
Let me ask this, had the term 'mothman' not been coined at the time of the Point Pleasant sightings, what name would have been attributed to these other avian anomlies seen all over the world? IMO, they are not 'The Mothman' or even associated with it, but are being lumped into the same category. We don't hear of the kind of interaction the Point Pleasant entity had with the populace, the car chases, the high pitched squealing sound, outbreaks of 'poltergeist' like activity etc. The more I read and research, I am beginning to think that Mothman, like the Owlman of Mawnan, are natural energies that have become personified. Look at Mawnan church, built on an ancient earthwork (and also a Ley Line, if you believe those theories). Point Pleasant has the Chief Cornstalk hunting grounds, believed to be sacred by the Indians, but avoided for the most part. Seeing any coincidences here?


I'm one of those that tend to categorise Mothman as 'high-strangeness' rather than a crypytozoological entity in the 'undiscovered fauna' sense. The actual sightings of the Mothman are really only a facet of a larger story.

However, I'm a bit confused with your reply here. You appear to be saying that Mothman is a paradigm unto itself, but then spend the rest of your post alikening it to the Owlman.

I think looking at these with any kind of biblical/religious tilt is detracting from the subject. There are a lot of parallels being drawn that are vague at best.


To be honest, I'm not really understanding why the OP is trying to tie the Mothman in with some Semitic or Christian entity. No offence meant to the OP, but I can't see any merit in the argument at all and am still unsure why the OP would think Satan would appear in that area. I'm sure Point Pleasant is neither a pious place and ripe for some Satanic corruption or so debauched and decadent that Satan sees it as a fantastic recruitment ground. Or, if the place is so symbolic in some way, then I'm sure the Illuminati, the Masons and all the other secret cabals are just kicking themselves they decided to build over at Washington rather than Point Pleasant.


reply posted on 22-9-2008 @ 11:12 AM by The time lord
Hollywood has the budget and landscape variety to do its own promotion of the American land which helps maybe with the economy. Europe does not have a Hollywood budget and is probably very taxing, but I guess movies these days like James Bond or Mission Impossibles are based across wider landscapes of interest. It's harder to make an American disastser movie based of the destruction of a foreign city, example Paris, without having disputes with other countries. Even The 300 had a few Iranian opinions because of the stories history. It is sometimes too Politically Incorrect to have made up stories of baddies from certain coutries without them complaining. The world is not that Free to express and sometimes Hollywood has to stay in Hollywood and Britain in Britain.
Also languages come into it, and Hollywood is the biggest country with the biggest budget to express its thoughts in Cinema.

In terms of the mothman I guess it could be an isolated case that for some unknown reason America had the highest impact in. Entities Angels and demons will always be just that. Beings of higher power trying to have some control. For all we know the Mothman was a guardian being and maybe some other enity was causing the problems.

The only relation to Beezelbub I guess are wings and many demon or Angel beings have wings so it is very likely seperate entities. The exorcist film I guess has more in common with Beezelbub if any entity had to come into play. Anyway thought I bring the subject up in the thread for old time discussion sake of a lost subject on ATS.
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