Is the Mothman Beelzebub?

Both the Mothman and Beelzebub are said to be winged creatures, both very demonic and both posess people and bring fear.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Mothman is the name given to a creature reported in the Charleston and Point Pleasant areas of West Virginia between November 12, 1966 (near Clendenin),[1] and December 1967. Most observers describe the Mothman as a winged man-sized creature with large reflective red eyes and large moth-like wings. The creature often appeared to have no head, with its eyes set into its chest. A number of hypotheses have been presented to explain eyewitness accounts, ranging from misidentification and coincidence, to paranormal phenomena and conspiracy theories.

www.occultopedia.com...
en.wikipedia.org...


Ba‘al Zebûb might mean 'Lord of Zebûb', referring to an unknown place called Zebûb, or 'Lord of things that fly' (zebûb being a Hebrew collective noun for 'fly', thus the common lay translation 'Lord of the Flies'). Thomas Kelly Cheyne suggested that it might be a derogatory corruption of Ba'al Zebul, 'Lord of the High Place', or 'Lord of Heaven'.[2] The SeptuagintA renders the name as Baalzeboub, SeptuagintB as Baal myîan 'Baal of flies', but Symmachus the Ebionite may have reflected a tradition of its offensive ancient name when he rendered it as Beelzeboul (Cath.Ency.).

The source for the name Ba‘al Zebûb / Beelzebub is in 2 Kings 1.2–3,6,16 where King Ahaziah of Israel, after seriously injuring himself in a fall, sends messengers to inquire of Ba‘al Zebûb, the god of the Philistine city of Ekron, to learn if he will recover.

Ahaziah fell through the lattice in his upper chamber at Samaria and was injured. So he sent messengers whom he instructed: "Go inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this injury." (JPS translation)
Elijah the Prophet then condemns Ahaziah to die by Yahweh's words because Ahaziah sought counsel from Ba‘al Zebûb rather than from Yahweh.

In Christianity, the name Beelzebub or Beelzebul may appear as an alternate name for Lucifer, the fallen angel or else may appear to refer to the name of a lesser devil. As with several religions, the names of any earlier foreign or "pagan" deities often became synonymous with the concept of an adversarial entity.

In Mark 3, verse 22, the Pharisees accuse Jesus of driving out demons by the power of Beelzeboul, prince of demons, the name also appearing in the expanded version in Matthew 12.24,27 and Luke 11.15,18–19. The name also occurs in Matthew 10.25.

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Lucifer, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (NIV translation)

Mothman


Beelzebub

I am not sure. I have always been intrigued by the Mothman and the Thunderbird legend. They are quite similar.

They are both winged creatures, both have prophetic backgrounds, some demons are said to have some knowledge of the future but not too accurate or deep as the prophets them selves had. Both very devilish in description if not quite nasty on its victims.

The whole Mothman red eyes thing suggests its very sinister looking being and its phycological effects on people leaves scares. It's an opposite of possession of the body of Beezelbub who works within, but this could be his new trate if he demands mass fear in people and almost a worship quality of attention seeking.

Originally posted by The time lord

Both the Mothman and Beelzebub are said to be winged creatures, both very demonic and both posess people and bring fear.

Excuse me, I'm not being rude or pinikity, but when you said "possess people", in what way? Or was it a genuine typo? (I'm just very easily confused, lol! I need things explaining once...or sometimes twice!)

EDIT: Ok, I managed to read that properly...(i should be a blonde maybe?!) forget EVERYTHING i just said. hmm. I am a right biff sometimes!

[edit on 14-9-2008 by emmy]

I mean since seeing the Mothman prophecy film, I assume people might have had possessive experiences too. A demon might be able to appear in front of you but it could also influence your mind and how else did the Mothman communicate the Prophecies? Through the minds of people also and their drawings reflecting subconcious thoughts. I could be wrong but then again who says its not a new form of attack on its victim?

its a good theory but dosent realy gel well with the acthual accounts of the mothman incidents. the movie while entertaining doesent show the whole picture of what went on.

there were ufo sighting (lots of them), men in black all over the place, temporal anomalys, ect. the book by john keel that they loosly based the movie off of is a much better accounting of what went on.

also if you look in to similar cases of avian humanoids youl see theres a pattern of these beings showing up right before major disasters. look into the BLACK BIRD OF CHERNOBYL, the MAN-DRAGON in china and the FREIBURG SHRIEKER in germany.

also that pic of the statue you posted was a artists interpratation of mothman and doesent reflect what witnesses saw.

From my research into the Mothman it isn't demonic at all. Its appearance could be describe that, but when it appears its more for a warning of something negative is going to happen. i.e. bridge collapse, you get cancer, your partner gets murdered, etc

I use to think it was grim reaper type of being, but the more I look into it the more I think its there just to warn us of danger.

Even so, never trust a demon because you don't know if him and his legion of friends are out to cause these problems in the first place to provoke self worship like the Greek Gods of old. Fallen angels and demons like to be worshipped as Gods too, guess that is all the love they have left to experience without their maker.

I am seeing it all from a negative perspective, but I don't trust in Aliens or spirits of any kind if they are not from God.

Originally posted by The time lord
I mean since seeing the Mothman prophecy film, I assume people might have had possessive experiences too. A demon might be able to appear in front of you but it could also influence your mind and how else did the Mothman communicate the Prophecies? Through the minds of people also and their drawings reflecting subconcious thoughts. I could be wrong but then again who says its not a new form of attack on its victim?

The film was loosely based on the book, and if you watch/read a little closer, you'll know that the 'Mothman' didn't communicate the prophecies, Indrid Cold did. Whether or not the 2 were actually linked was never really figured out. It seemed to be a point in time where a whole bunch of weirdness happened all at once.

As far as Mothy being demonic, I don't think so, but then I don't believe in demons.

Originally posted by Genus_Unknown

Originally posted by The time lord
I mean since seeing the Mothman prophecy film, I assume people might have had possessive experiences too. A demon might be able to appear in front of you but it could also influence your mind and how else did the Mothman communicate the Prophecies? Through the minds of people also and their drawings reflecting subconcious thoughts. I could be wrong but then again who says its not a new form of attack on its victim?

The film was loosely based on the book, and if you watch/read a little closer, you'll know that the 'Mothman' didn't communicate the prophecies, Indrid Cold did. Whether or not the 2 were actually linked was never really figured out. It seemed to be a point in time where a whole bunch of weirdness happened all at once.

As far as Mothy being demonic, I don't think so, but then I don't believe in demons.

For a start you have a very demonic looking avatar from what I see, you sure you don't believe?

It's been a while since I last watched the film, guess I forgot some details.
But never judge a demon not to lie.
The Mothman seems to use electricity to communicate also which suggests
its an entity being that probably is not from this dimention and maybe more towards the spirit world. I find its warnings creep people out rather than help, if not cause them to die too which is not exactly a friendly neighbourhood spiderman figure.

Originally posted by The time lord

For a start you have a very demonic looking avatar from what I see, you sure you don't believe?

It's been a while since I last watched the film, guess I forgot some details.
But never judge a demon not to lie.
The Mothman seems to use electricity to communicate also which suggests
its an entity being that probably is not from this dimention and maybe more towards the spirit world. I find its warnings creep people out rather than help, if not cause them to die too which is not exactly a friendly neighbourhood spiderman figure.

Thanks, I like to creep people out.

Am I missing something here? What leads you to believe the Mothman communicated with electricity? or communicated at all?? The Mothman entity was seen by a number of witnesses in Point Pleasant during a wave of UFO sightings in the Ohio River Valley area. Mothy did not warn anyone about anything. He was viewed as a possible omen of disaster after the fact, when the sightings were recollected, the collapse of the Silver Bridge etc. I guess you couold say he was used as a scapegoat. The 'prophecies' were given by an supposed entity by the name of Indrid Cold, who communicated through Point Pleasant native Woody Derenberger.

Firstly, I'm intrigued at your reading of Beelzebub. Are you taking it to be synonymous with Satan/the Devil &c?

Secondly, I'm similarly intrigued why should Beelzebub appear in America . There's a strange coincidence at work here, as, before I actually opened the thread, I was already making an analogy with 'American' comics, of which I'm generally a big fan of by the way. Then I saw the OP's avatar! Perhaps Keel 'high-strangeness' at work!

In American comics, as with Hollywood, if anything happens, it happens in America. Alien invasion? It happens in America. Gateway to hell opens? It opens in America. Pick a scenario, any scenario, and it happens in America. If popular media is any representation at all, more has happened to America in the last 100 years of than probably the last 1000 years of Europe combined! Although why this might be is perhaps a thread of its own.

The point I'm getting to, is why would Beelzebub appear in America? Other 'paranormal/supernatural/monster' creatures tend to have reasons why they might appear in America. Big Foot, if it is exists, is undoubtedly native fauna - as is the Thunderbird and so on. Whilst there as rough analogues to Mothman in other parts of the world, Beelzebub is one of a kind. So why appear (just) in America? What's so special about America that draws Beelzebub? I could write a list of crappy things about America that would probably interest Beelzebub to the extent he might make an appearance, but not much of it would be specific to America.

Other similarly significant 'one-offs' that are alleged to have appeared in history, like Jesus, are said to have been there to spread a message, and perhaps, in a sense, could have started anywhere on earth as long as the message was spread. However, Beezlebub - appearing as Mothman - doesn't appear to have a great message to spread. As has been pointed out, Mothman had no real message as such to spread; it was Indrid Cold that relayed any genuine communication.

I'm more interested you'd think Beezlebub would appear in a very small place in West Virgina.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Firstly, I'm intrigued at your reading of Beelzebub. Are you taking it to be synonymous with Satan/the Devil &c?

Secondly, I'm similarly intrigued why should Beelzebub appear in America . There's a strange coincidence at work here, as, before I actually opened the thread, I was already making an analogy with 'American' comics, of which I'm generally a big fan of by the way. Then I saw the OP's avatar! Perhaps Keel 'high-strangeness' at work!

In American comics, as with Hollywood, if anything happens, it happens in America. Alien invasion? It happens in America. Gateway to hell opens? It opens in America. Pick a scenario, any scenario, and it happens in America. If popular media is any representation at all, more has happened to America in the last 100 years of than probably the last 1000 years of Europe combined! Although why this might be is perhaps a thread of its own.

The point I'm getting to, is why would Beelzebub appear in America? Other 'paranormal/supernatural/monster' creatures tend to have reasons why they might appear in America. Big Foot, if it is exists, is undoubtedly native fauna - as is the Thunderbird and so on. Whilst there as rough analogues to Mothman in other parts of the world, Beelzebub is one of a kind. So why appear (just) in America? What's so special about America that draws Beelzebub? I could write a list of crappy things about America that would probably interest Beelzebub to the extent he might make an appearance, but not much of it would be specific to America.

Other similarly significant 'one-offs' that are alleged to have appeared in history, like Jesus, are said to have been there to spread a message, and perhaps, in a sense, could have started anywhere on earth as long as the message was spread. However, Beezlebub - appearing as Mothman - doesn't appear to have a great message to spread. As has been pointed out, Mothman had no real message as such to spread; it was Indrid Cold that relayed any genuine communication.

I'm more interested you'd think Beezlebub would appear in a very small place in West Virgina.

Your questions are very valid and I am happy to answer them with my theories as of self taught knowledge of things paranormal. For a start the Mothman has appeared in other countries too if you research it.

In terms of Beelzebub I have seen some strangeness with flies lately, not behaving so Flyish so I looked into it. That amoungst other strangenesses I have had. I was in my garden today, soaking the sun for the first time in ages since it has not been sunny it seems in the UK. I sat down thinking about this thread when a large butterfly wizzed past me and parked a few meters in front of me.
I thought, okay nearest thing to a Mothman, a butterfly with two red spots on each side of its wings. Anyway It was looking in my direction and I thought, well maybe man can be connected with nature somehow, since I had a surreal dream that a plant was waving at me moving side to side.
So I to decided to say in my mind, come closer butter fly I want to have a closer look. Then a minute later it flew and landed on my shirt, which of course was bright white and flew off again. Are my life experiences strange-yes probably.

Beezelbub and America can go hand in hand since Washington is full of Masonic symbols and the illuminati being associated with Satanic forces so America is a place to make or destroy in spiritual wealth.

A lot of the American disaster movies have to be made in America because if you did one based in China or Saudi Arabia, you would expect riots and national bans on the movies. This is why we never focus so much else where. Also budget costs and the spectacular city scapes have always been that much better in America anyway. Americans or what ever national movie always relates to their own culture people and language.

America is also quite a new mass of land to be populated by man, we never know if the old North America and Brazillian rainforests held unknown humanoid species which evolved in this isolated land.

Anyway all I am saying they could be related, but then again if fallen Angels or guardian Angels alike all will at some point have winged appearences anyway. They could be two different things or one of the same but with Satan in mind, he can just about be who he wants to be in the sight of man.


[edit on 19-9-2008 by The time lord]

Originally posted by The time lord

Your questions are very valid and I am happy to answer them with my theories as of self taught knowledge of things paranormal. For a start the Mothman has appeared in other countries too if you research it.

I don't know whether you noticed, but I did mention that Mothman analogues have appeared elsewhere. I was thinking specifically of the Cornish Owlman when I wrote that but I'm familiar with others as well as the Mothman itself.

Beezelbub and America can go hand in hand since Washington is full of Masonic symbols and the illuminati being associated with Satanic forces so America is a place to make or destroy in spiritual wealth.

But don't a lot of these conspiracies inevitably end-up pointing the finger at Britain? So, why not Britain? Why not Tower Bridge in London rather than Silver Bridge? Or if, for some reason, Beelzebub is particular to only American cabals, then why Point Pleasant, a very small town on the western border of West Virginia, and not the Washington DC "associated with Satanic forces" as you claim?

A lot of the American disaster movies have to be made in America because if you did one based in China or Saudi Arabia, you would expect riots and national bans on the movies.

I'm not entirely sure this is a legitimate reason there aren't disaster/event films but China certainly has horror films, I'm sure a Mothman type film wouldn't be a problem.

This is why we never focus so much else where. Also budget costs and the spectacular city scapes have always been that much better in America anyway. Americans or what ever national movie always relates to their own culture people and language.

I suppose the major cities of Europe just aren't spectacular enough? Or, with regard to your point about China, Chinese cities aren't spectacular enough? Japan? Personally, I think this is more to do with Americentrism - "it has to happen here because we're the most important!" - but, as I said, perhaps that's best for another thread.

America is also quite a new mass of land to be populated by man, we never know if the old North America and Brazillian rainforests held unknown humanoid species which evolved in this isolated land.

Well, North America has had populations since at least the Clovis culture. That's quite a long time. If you're talking about evolution, you really have to think of fossil evidence. Where's the fossil evidence for Mothman's ancestors? Also, if you're trying to make some point about the size of America and how, apparently, recent human culture has inhabited that space, I'm not sure how it compares to Britain. Populated for 100,000s of years in a relatively tiny place and yet, Owlman! Not much room for 'who knows what's out there' here in Britain.

Anyway all I am saying they could be related, but then again if fallen Angels or guardian Angels alike all will at some point have winged appearences anyway. They could be two different things or one of the same but with Satan in mind, he can just about be who he wants to be in the sight of man.

But there's no real similarity other than the wings. You could say the same about anything with wings: sparrows, starlings and so on.

Let me ask this, had the term 'mothman' not been coined at the time of the Point Pleasant sightings, what name would have been attributed to these other avian anomlies seen all over the world? IMO, they are not 'The Mothman' or even associated with it, but are being lumped into the same category. We don't hear of the kind of interaction the Point Pleasant entity had with the populace, the car chases, the high pitched squealing sound, outbreaks of 'poltergeist' like activity etc. The more I read and research, I am beginning to think that Mothman, like the Owlman of Mawnan, are natural energies that have become personified. Look at Mawnan church, built on an ancient earthwork (and also a Ley Line, if you believe those theories). Point Pleasant has the Chief Cornstalk hunting grounds, believed to be sacred by the Indians, but avoided for the most part. Seeing any coincidences here? I think looking at these with any kind of biblical/religious tilt is detracting from the subject. There are a lot of parallels being drawn that are vague at best.

Originally posted by Genus_Unknown
Let me ask this, had the term 'mothman' not been coined at the time of the Point Pleasant sightings, what name would have been attributed to these other avian anomlies seen all over the world? IMO, they are not 'The Mothman' or even associated with it, but are being lumped into the same category. We don't hear of the kind of interaction the Point Pleasant entity had with the populace, the car chases, the high pitched squealing sound, outbreaks of 'poltergeist' like activity etc. The more I read and research, I am beginning to think that Mothman, like the Owlman of Mawnan, are natural energies that have become personified. Look at Mawnan church, built on an ancient earthwork (and also a Ley Line, if you believe those theories). Point Pleasant has the Chief Cornstalk hunting grounds, believed to be sacred by the Indians, but avoided for the most part. Seeing any coincidences here?

I'm one of those that tend to categorise Mothman as 'high-strangeness' rather than a crypytozoological entity in the 'undiscovered fauna' sense. The actual sightings of the Mothman are really only a facet of a larger story.

However, I'm a bit confused with your reply here. You appear to be saying that Mothman is a paradigm unto itself, but then spend the rest of your post alikening it to the Owlman.

I think looking at these with any kind of biblical/religious tilt is detracting from the subject. There are a lot of parallels being drawn that are vague at best.

To be honest, I'm not really understanding why the OP is trying to tie the Mothman in with some Semitic or Christian entity. No offence meant to the OP, but I can't see any merit in the argument at all and am still unsure why the OP would think Satan would appear in that area. I'm sure Point Pleasant is neither a pious place and ripe for some Satanic corruption or so debauched and decadent that Satan sees it as a fantastic recruitment ground. Or, if the place is so symbolic in some way, then I'm sure the Illuminati, the Masons and all the other secret cabals are just kicking themselves they decided to build over at Washington rather than Point Pleasant.

I'm not sure that I really called Mothy a Cryptid (although correct me if i'm wrong). I agree, I think it's also a case of 'high strangeness' but so too was the Owlman. There are a few similarities between the entities and the location that they were observed in. This is why I mentioned that they could be the personification of natural energy (this is only a way out theory, remember!). I was just trying to draw parallels between the two because of description and the nature of their 'haunting' location. I still think that Mothy is very unique, and that other catastrophies that happen in the world suddenly spawn other avian weirdies that get lumped in as the same thing. Unfortunately the only thing we can really do is speculate, as I don't think we'll be seeing Mothy any time soon. One thing I will say though, the people who I spoke to in Point Pleasant when I visited there very much believe in the events of 1966. The place itself is pretty unexciting, its weird to believe that something of that magnitude would happen there, let alone the devil paying a visit!

Hollywood has the budget and landscape variety to do its own promotion of the American land which helps maybe with the economy. Europe does not have a Hollywood budget and is probably very taxing, but I guess movies these days like James Bond or Mission Impossibles are based across wider landscapes of interest. It's harder to make an American disastser movie based of the destruction of a foreign city, example Paris, without having disputes with other countries. Even The 300 had a few Iranian opinions because of the stories history. It is sometimes too Politically Incorrect to have made up stories of baddies from certain coutries without them complaining. The world is not that Free to express and sometimes Hollywood has to stay in Hollywood and Britain in Britain.
Also languages come into it, and Hollywood is the biggest country with the biggest budget to express its thoughts in Cinema.

In terms of the mothman I guess it could be an isolated case that for some unknown reason America had the highest impact in. Entities Angels and demons will always be just that. Beings of higher power trying to have some control. For all we know the Mothman was a guardian being and maybe some other enity was causing the problems.

The only relation to Beezelbub I guess are wings and many demon or Angel beings have wings so it is very likely seperate entities. The exorcist film I guess has more in common with Beezelbub if any entity had to come into play. Anyway thought I bring the subject up in the thread for old time discussion sake of a lost subject on ATS.

that my be a possablilty.
i just got done saying on another post, He might be Death, himself. the Grim Reaper.
he shows up at places where a great number of people die.
I just heard that theres a picture where "mothman" was at the world trade center