The Evidence For Jesus' Existence is Overwhelming

If you want nearly undeniable proof that Jesus came from astrological signs and gods preceeding him, watch the movie "zeitgeist" and skip to the religion segment. It's about 45mins - 1hr long (the religion segment alone, that is) and is free to watch online.

reply to post by thegagefather


This is what my thread was talking about, this is point 20 (I think) on a 22 point scale called: "The Hero Pattern"

EDIT--
Heh guess it is 19 not 20, I was close though!
--EDIT

Here is the scale, so others can further see the similarities:

1: The Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2: His father is a king, and
3: Often a near relative of his mother, but
4: The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5: He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6: At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7: He his spirited away, and
8: Reared by foster-parents in a far country.
9: We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10: On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11: After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12: He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor, and
13: Becomes king.
14: For a time he reigns uneventfully, and
15: Prescribes laws, but
16: Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17: Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18: He meets with a mysterious death,
19: Often at the top of a hill.
20: His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21: His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22: He has one or more holy sepulchres.

The source is a book Titled: "The Hero Pattern: A Study in Myth and Tradition" Author: Lord Raglan

More info and exerpts are on the the thread I linked in a previous post.

EDIT2--
Here is JC's scale (also from other thread):

Originally posted by adigregorio
Alright so that is the Old Testament, surely the New Testament is clean of the "heroes"? Well let us take a look at Jesus. This is my paragraph hence why it is not quoted. Lord Raglan did not include him in the list of heroes.

(1) His mother was a virgin. His father was (2) god (also referred to as Lord (aka king)). He was (4) born of immaculate conception. Again his father is (5) god, or Jehova. King Herod heard of this "savior" and (6) attempted to have him killed. (7) He is spirited away. (9) We are told nothing of his childhood. (10) But when he hits manhood he returns to his future kingdom. (11) After a victory over Satan, he becomes (13) "king of the Jews". (14) For a time he reigns uneventfully, (15) and prescribes laws. However, (16) he loses favor with the Jews, and is (17) driven from his throne as king of the jews. He (18) meets with a mysterious death, (19) on top of a hill. (20) He has no children to succeed him. (21) His body is never buried, and (22) he has holy sepulchres.

So let's see, a grand total of 19 points. Looks to me that the hero still exists and is worshiped to this day.

--EDIT2

[edit on 4/26/2009 by adigregorio]

[edit on 4/26/2009 by adigregorio]

The author of this thread is correct. There is overwhelming evidence.
There are over 16 ancient non-Christian sources for Christ doing miracles and being crucified and being raised from the dead.
Here is the proof from the man who is the world's leading authority on the resurrection of Christ:
www.garyhabermas.com...
Don't forget about Paul the Apostle. He was alive when Jesus was alive and then he had met Jesus on the road to Damascus. He had a first hand account of Christ. Skeptics even believe in Paul the Apostle.
Thanks,
Texastig

Overwhelming evidence? Well not according to:

Originally posted by adigregorio
I do not think this is the article, but I can't seem to find the "right one" (I knew I should have bookmarked it!) However, this link is notable because the person being interviewed is a believer.

I will quote parts, but please read the whole. The reason I quote this, because the person had a perfect chance to list of "Real" evidence.

(Real = The two things I want as evidence)

DN: For Christian believers, there is no doubt that Jesus existed. Is there a strong argument for an historical Jesus, though, having lived sometime around the first century A.D.?

RH: Yes, I think there is. The evidence comes from the Bible itself, but not in the way you might suppose.

DN: But Jesus is said to have been born of a poor family in Nazareth, and he conducted much of his ministry at the Sea of Galilee?

RH: Precisely. There is no reason why Jesus should have come from Nazareth, which was never mentioned in the prophecies, or that he should have begun his work at the Sea of Galilee. These are just two of the incongruities that did not conform to the preexisting beliefs about the Messiah. It is therefore likely that Jesus actually did exist, since there is no reason for these mismatches.

(Bolding done by me)

This is a SUPER POINT!! Please take note I will have a quiz after this post!

DN: Is there any direct evidence for Jesus' existence outside of the Bible?

RH: Josephus, a first century Jewish historian, wrote of Jesus in the Greek version of the "Antiquities of the Jews." He described Jesus as a "wise man" and a "doer of wonderful works." The fact that Josephus referenced Jesus reveals that stories about Jesus were already gaining momentum.

Many believers use this as "non-bible" proof, please take note at when he wrote, and I quote (again

): A First century Jewish historian... And the person goes on to say that it shows "stories" are gaining momentum. So even she doesn't think this is an eye-witness.

All excerpts from this SOURCE

Again, from that other thread (posted earlier) Mysteriously it drops back to the darkness, talk about a conspiracy!

adigregorio, Gary Habermas said this,
"With regard to the historical Jesus, any material between 30 and 50 AD would be exemplary, a time period highly preferred by scholars like those in the Jesus Seminar.
Don't forget the other ancient non-historical sources for Christ.

Thanks,
TT

reply to post by texastig


But all I want are two pieces of evidence, and if the evidence is "overwhelming" then where are they?

1. Eyewitness account
2. Official document (IE Passport, Drivers License, Voter Registration, Warrent for arrest, etc.)

Don't worry though, no one could come up with it in my other thread either, see how it drops down super fast on the boards.

But all I want are two pieces of evidence, and if the evidence is "overwhelming" then where are they?

Prophecy and Jesus resurrection.

1. Eyewitness account

Paul the Apostle was an eye witness to Jesus Christ. In fact he had met Him on the road to Emmaus. All scholars agree that Paul was real.

2. Official document (IE Passport, Drivers License, Voter Registration, Warrent for arrest, etc.)

1Cor 15:3-8
3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4
And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5
And that He was seen of Cephas[Peter], then of the twelve:
6
After that, He was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7
After that, He was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8
And last of all He was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Don't worry though, no one could come up with it in my other thread either, see how it drops down super fast on the boards.

Well I came up with it and if you want more let me know.
It is very important because it will determine our eternal destiny.
We are all sinners and we need Christ to cleanse us.

Thanks,
TT

Originally posted by texastig
...Well I came up with it and if you want more let me know.

I am afraid you did not come up with "it". All of those 'points' were discussed in my thread. Weasle words will not prove your point either.

"Scholars Agree"?? What scholars, how many, credentials?

And using the Bible to prove the Bible? That is like asking a liar to tell the truth, it is possible but not very smart. Sorry, but you can not expect me to believe that a book can prove that itself is 'magic'. Bible = written by man, no matter how much you put a 'god' into that equation, man is still involved; therefore, fallable.

I am not going into details but:

1: Paul, not an eye-witness
2: Bible can't be used to prove the Bible (This is called, checks and balances in politics)

If you want those details, they are in my thread.

reply to post by adigregorio


Apparently you live by the seen, but there is an unseen. You don't see the air but you know it is there for you to breathe, well Jesus via The Holy Ghost is the same way. Once you give Him a chance to live within your heart, and it doesn't necessarily happen like a bolt of lightning (for some it does), sometimes it takes some time and prayer to build your faith. But it's a sure deal. For anyone who ever asked Jesus into his heart, I can promise you Jesus accepted the invitation. I just don't understand people who can throw that aside and go on with this temporal life, and not be ready for the eternal life God offers.

We can spend years comparing notes, but if you continue to demand that God has to give you this or that, rather than to just first accept the Gift He already freely gave you, then it is likely a waste of my time and yours.

reply to post by Bombeni


Appealing to emotion is not showing me all the 'overwhelming evidence'

I ask for only 2 things, if you do not have it then you do not have 'overwhelming evidence' you have the same amount as the rest of us.

Faith does not equal evidence

EDIT--
Boards do not like "does not equal sign" (must be html related)

[edit on 5/1/2009 by adigregorio]

reply to post by adigregorio



I don't know what it is you need to be overwhelmed by, I hope it isn't evidence that Jesus even existed at all, I won't even lower myself to discuss that ridiculous spin.

I am overwhelmed every single time I think of Jesus and what He did and why He did it. Because of Him I get to spend eternity in a place with gates made of pearl, streets of gold, walls made of jasper and emerald, etc. I am overwhelmed just with what I know and understand, and I don't understand all of it, but I believe all of it. The evidence you need is in your heart if you give your own ego up long enough to just at least consider that Jesus might be for real, and give Him a chance to show you this.

Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by adigregorio

 

I don't know what it is you need to be overwhelmed by...

I need to be overwhelmed by the topic:

The Evidence For Jesus' Existence is Overwhelming

Or are you saying that the evidence that you perseve is overwhelming to you? If that is the case, it is a misleading Title, and OP.

I could say the same thing about chocolate cake, the evidence that chocolate cake is tasty is overwhelming. (omitting the 'to me' part)

EDIT--
BB code

[edit on 5/1/2009 by adigregorio]

Originally posted by justxxme
are you trying to debate whether or not he merely existed? Or if he was, in fact, the messiah that his followers claimed him to be? Historical evidence may be able to prove that someone existed that was the basis for the stories in the NT, but can historical evidence prove that he was the son of god, savior, messiah, etc.?

A similar question: there may have been a man named Achilles, but was his mother really an nymph who conceived him with a mortal? Was he all that Homer's Iliad claimed him to be?

OK look, you can bash Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook all you want, but lay off my Achilles. I live my life by the almighty teachings of Homer. His books are a better read.

Originally posted by justxxme
are you trying to debate whether or not he merely existed? Or if he was, in fact, the messiah that his followers claimed him to be? Historical evidence may be able to prove that someone existed that was the basis for the stories in the NT, but can historical evidence prove that he was the son of god, savior, messiah, etc.?

A similar question: there may have been a man named Achilles, but was his mother really an nymph who conceived him with a mortal? Was he all that Homer's Iliad claimed him to be?

OK look, you can bash Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook all you want, but lay off my Achilles. I live my life by the almighty teachings of Homer. His books are a better read.

Originally posted by breakingdradles

Comparing him to real historical figures, ie George Washington, doesn't work. They have people writing about them durring their lives and directly after their "feats".

And several of these historical figures wrote about themselves as well.

How many writings can be proven to be penned by Jesus himself?

Was he illiterate? Why didn't he write his own thoughts down?

Originally posted by Chief O

Oh come off it!! Anybody can refute anything whether or not there is evidence. "I don't believe it" is all that needs to be said. People who refute Jesus' existence are not interested whether He existed at all. They are more interested in rejecting Christ because they feel a belief in Christ would be too restrictive on their lifestyles.

Really? Thanks for explaining my mind for me. I reject it because I rejected the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus at one point in my life too. That had no negative effect on my lifestyle. In fact, it brought me closer to reality. Furthermore, I am very interested in whether he existed or not. Just for very different reasons then you. Stone me.

Look; St Paul was a historical figure.

I prefer racist bigot, but we'll go with your definitiopn for now.

He spoke to eyewitnesses of Jesus. He even had a supernatural encounter with Jesus. Anybody reading about the deeds of St Paul can clearly see that the man had 100% conviction for Christ. St Paul had profound discussions with eyewitness contemporaries of Christ. They were still alive at the writing of the epistles. They did not reject St Paul's epistles as myth. That is all the proof you need!

Paul's writings are from Paul's perspective and are Paul's Theories and Paul's ideas. They have as much to do with Jesus as Peter Griffin. Paul is the reason I and many others reject the entire Fable.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
You know some of you act like you have a personal vendetta against the Lord ?
Why do you want so bad for him to NOT EXIST ? What has he done to you so horrible ?

This is untrue. Some of us don't accept that Jesus WAS God. There is a difference. Not believing that Jesus was the Messiah does not immediately rule out God. It only rules out Christianity as the one true religion. That I think is the part you Christians can't swallow. My way or the Highway, same as it has been for 2000 years. This methodology has been very helpful for control freaks throughout history. For the first time possibly ever, we can flip the bird at something we know is a fairy tale, and we won't end up on the rack for speaking the truth. Poetic Justice in my mind.

The paths to God are many. Christianity is one of the main roadblocks to this truth.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor4:18

The fact that there are those who don't believe is as perplexing to me as the fact I do believe is perplexing to them.

There is more than enough evidence that He lived, if that is what you need. I think the fact that you are on any search at all, even if it is a search to try to prove He didn't exist, is significant. There's no telling where that road might end.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
You know I find it really fascinating and inspiring just knowing that you athiests and agnostics and science guys ..are still in this thread ...for some reason I actually think that you believe more than you think you do (In other words your minds are telling you no and your HEART is telling you YES) ..........or you would not be so interested in all of this for so long even (days months years lol) ..I know you would have better things to do than this thread or this subject ... ..if you really did not believe (even a little bit) you would not waste your time ..would you ?

I dont buy that your trying to get us blindly led Jesus sheep (sarcasm yes lol)
to stop believeing that their is proof ..and I dont even think yall enjoy debateing this subject much with us believers ..because alot of you get too fired up sometimes ...so your not enjoying it .
So the only reasons I could come up with your here is because you WANT TO LET GO and BELIEVE ....because deep down you know its true ..
The Proof will come once you really for real are ready to really want to know ..(Not just say you do .. in your mind you are still being stubborn..so you have to really really want to know the truth (for once let you heart think before your MIND does) ... ..then the truth will set you free ..just watch and see ...the truth comes when you really ask for it ..but dont expect it to be a piece paper proving something ..but something real and spiritual that will BLOW YOU AWAY with enough proof to get you on your knees and sorry for all of this nonsense unbelief ..

Your so close ........

[edit on 27-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

Actually no. In my case it's more of a couterpoint thing for the people still seeking. I have been down the Christian path and consider it to be the single biggest waste of time in my life. If I can help dissuade others from falling into this cesspool, I will most definitely do it.

So, again,....

You are arrogantly wrong.

Originally posted by Bombeni

I would like to extend a challenge to nonbelievers, to print a copy of this psalm www.biblegateway.com... and find a quiet time alone each day for at least a week, to read it, ponder it, and remember, just for a week, open your heart and mind to the very remote possibility that Jesus is, as seabiscuit said, who He said He was---God. What have you got to lose? "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matthew 16:26

[edit on 7-10-2008 by Bombeni]

I could give you a link to John Lennon's "Imagine" and ask you to find a quiet time to read and contemplate it, but it wouldn't change your mind one bit. This Psalm won't change mine either, but thanks for the thought.